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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Rich is an idiot - If we had a cop standing in place of red-light cameras doing the same as a camera, it would be ok according to Rich!

The camera is an independent mechanism that takes a photo void of any bias. Motorists have the opportunity to seek that photo for review, however to rely on the memory of a cop standing in the same location can be open to courtroom drama.
A photo of a traffic red light and a car passing the point to activate the camera is cut and dry and helps mitigate the time wasted in court not to mention the time wasted with a a full trained cop in the courtroom giving evidence. A red light camera technician need only to attend when the red light cameras are used.

Noting that the judge can always listen to any valid reason for running a red light before judgement, if it is so sort by a motorist.

The red light camera also highlights who caused an accident if it was to occur - No grey area on who ran a light!

We need a cost effective approach to many safety / traffic enforcement problems and Rich would rather see cost effectiveness thrown out the window. Doesn't the city have street cameras in our anti-social 'hotspots'... weren't they used to detect littering and dumping ? Whats Rich's opinion on them which were introduced by Healy ... are they still in service and operational ?


Well FAB, that is one of the best, most succinct posts you've ever made! May I add that when the recipient (myself) sees the video of making the right on red without actually stopping, he just pays up since he knows it's a done deal.

As for driver education, PLEASE!!! I'm all for a written test every 5 years to renew. I swear far fewer than half the drivers in JC know the rules of multiway stops, never mind what to do at a blinking red or yellow, or God forbid, a light that's out. Maybe billboards around town at lights with the rules would help, anything...please!

Posted on: 2014/3/27 15:26
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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RUinHamiltonPark wrote:
They cause accidents. They don't make anyone better. They hurt people and raise premiums so the city can make more money.

They should be illegal.

And they shorten the yellow all over NJ and have been caught doing it and never held accountable.

If you're for red light cameras, you're not pro-safety- you're pro-accidents so corrupt municipalities can be even more bloated. Noble cause!


I completely agree with this.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:43
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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fat-ass-bike wrote:

Noting that the judge can always listen to any valid reason for running a red light before judgement, if it is so sort by a motorist.


My personal experience with a traffic judge in JC - which, thankfully, was only once - was that she was completely unwilling to listen to anything that I had to present, when I went to court.

About 4 years ago, on one of those Sundays where about 1000 bikers go through the Holland Tunnel on their way to the WTC (and the tunnel gets closed for them - effectively turning Jersey City into a parking lot), I was stuck in traffic near the intersection of Newark and Tonnelle, and sat through 4 red lights without moving an inch. Eventually, I went around 2 cars - and had to go into the opposite lane, across the double yellow line to do it - and made a left to Senate Place, a block from my home. Mind you, I didn't cross the lines into oncoming traffic - there was none, because the intersections were completely gridlocked and there was no oncoming traffic at all. And, I was a block from my house. And a cop was sitting on the side street, handing out tickets (and, I might add, not bothering to try to do anything about the gridlock that was causing the mess). So IMO, although I did technically break the law, it was a minor infraction, understandable, innocuous, and I'm a local - not someone trying to cut through Jersey City to avoid some other road.

All the judge cared about was that I did, technically, break the law. There was no leniency. The prosecutor was willing to drop it, but for some reason, not the judge.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 14:42
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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Crazy_Chester wrote:
The cameras don't cause the accidents, the bad drivers do. Even if the rear-end collisions increase, the serious t-bone, right angle accidents go down. That is a good trade-off. The rear-end collision folks deserve each other. All the accidents decrease with time as awareness of the cameras increases.


In that case, why don’t we start by raising the standards for obtaining a license? Fear of penalties isn’t the way to make better drivers, education and training is.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 13:21
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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The cameras don't cause the accidents, the bad drivers do. Even if the rear-end collisions increase, the serious t-bone, right angle accidents go down. That is a good trade-off. The rear-end collision folks deserve each other. All the accidents decrease with time as awareness of the cameras increases.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 13:07
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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The camera is an independent mechanism that takes a photo void of any bias.


That’s exactly the problem. In a free country, as opposed to a police-state, there is a natural, built-in tolerance for transgressions against the law, for better or worse. Automated, ever-present observation by law enforcement, devoid of bias, is a potentially dangerous step away from the beauty of freedom.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 13:02
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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As much as I am against these cameras, one point was made that hasn't been addressed here (unless I missed it), is the contract. The contract which was negotiated during Healy's tenure expires in 2017. Yikes! Breaking that contract early could potentially cost the City millions in penalties. It is a damned if you do & damned if you don't situation. So what do you do? Break the contract & find the only logical way(s) to absorb the cost - raise taxes a couple of dollars or cut a service or two. Or grit your teeth, squeak through the next 3 years & collect the revenues.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 11:34
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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Rich Boggiano said:
“If you want to have traffic enforcement, bring back the cops, bring back police,” Boggiano told The Jersey Journal.


You mean those guys who watch drivers blow through red lights? I think we should stick with the cameras.

We got rid of the Healy machine and now we're stuck with blue dogs and kooks.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 11:10
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Rich is an idiot - If we had a cop standing in place of red-light cameras doing the same as a camera, it would be ok according to Rich!

The camera is an independent mechanism that takes a photo void of any bias. Motorists have the opportunity to seek that photo for review, however to rely on the memory of a cop standing in the same location can be open to courtroom drama.
A photo of a traffic red light and a car passing the point to activate the camera is cut and dry and helps mitigate the time wasted in court not to mention the time wasted with a a full trained cop in the courtroom giving evidence. A red light camera technician need only to attend when the red light cameras are used.

Noting that the judge can always listen to any valid reason for running a red light before judgement, if it is so sort by a motorist.

The red light camera also highlights who caused an accident if it was to occur - No grey area on who ran a light!

We need a cost effective approach to many safety / traffic enforcement problems and Rich would rather see cost effectiveness thrown out the window. Doesn't the city have street cameras in our anti-social 'hotspots'... weren't they used to detect littering and dumping ? Whats Rich's opinion on them which were introduced by Healy ... are they still in service and operational ?

Yep FAB it is cut & dry just hope it is accurate...like a stop sign.

Posted on: 2014/3/27 11:07
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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Rich is an idiot - If we had a cop standing in place of red-light cameras doing the same as a camera, it would be ok according to Rich!

The camera is an independent mechanism that takes a photo void of any bias. Motorists have the opportunity to seek that photo for review, however to rely on the memory of a cop standing in the same location can be open to courtroom drama.
A photo of a traffic red light and a car passing the point to activate the camera is cut and dry and helps mitigate the time wasted in court not to mention the time wasted with a a full trained cop in the courtroom giving evidence. A red light camera technician need only to attend when the red light cameras are used.

Noting that the judge can always listen to any valid reason for running a red light before judgement, if it is so sort by a motorist.

The red light camera also highlights who caused an accident if it was to occur - No grey area on who ran a light!

We need a cost effective approach to many safety / traffic enforcement problems and Rich would rather see cost effectiveness thrown out the window. Doesn't the city have street cameras in our anti-social 'hotspots'... weren't they used to detect littering and dumping ? Whats Rich's opinion on them which were introduced by Healy ... are they still in service and operational ?

Posted on: 2014/3/27 6:06
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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They cause accidents. They don't make anyone better. They hurt people and raise premiums so the city can make more money.

They should be illegal.

And they shorten the yellow all over NJ and have been caught doing it and never held accountable.

If you're for red light cameras, you're not pro-safety- you're pro-accidents so corrupt municipalities can be even more bloated. Noble cause!

Posted on: 2014/3/26 20:41
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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Shouldn't these things at least be video cameras? Still photos is archaeic, but then, so is government.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 18:08
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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MDM wrote:
IMO, they violate due process.


How's that? It's not a points ticket, it's more like a parking ticket. Do they violate due process too? In fact they're fairer than a parking ticket, you can review the video online. I've been bagged, and now I'm more careful. That's the point isn't it?


They don't give you a fair opportunity to defend yourself. I have been in your situation once and had no problem paying my ticket. It was fair, and a real cop would have done the same thing.

But let's say there's some mistake. When you review the video it's clear you are innocent. Too bad. The only way to defend yourself is show up in court. That option can cost you more than the ticket in the form of travel, waiting, and taking time off work. This point is even stronger if you get a ticket while driving down the shore or some other place very far away.


I'm still not following how they're any worse than officer issued tickets. I've had bullshit traffic tickets and there was no video to prove me innocent, and once the damn officer didn't show in court but they didn't dismiss it requiring me to take ANOTHER day off. That can't happen with these at least. And I've had to travel 2 hrs upstate to fight a speed trap ticket.

The cam tickets are not fully automatic, the video is reviewed by a human to see if there actually was a violation, so those flashes during a green don't result in a ticket. I think most of the bitching is people who want to keep running lights.



Exactly. When making the right on red at 18th Street on my way back from Hoboken I now notice those drivers "in the know" who come to a full-stop, wait about 8 seconds and then proceed. The cameras promote good behavior.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 17:57
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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JCMan8 wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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MDM wrote:
IMO, they violate due process.


How's that? It's not a points ticket, it's more like a parking ticket. Do they violate due process too? In fact they're fairer than a parking ticket, you can review the video online. I've been bagged, and now I'm more careful. That's the point isn't it?


They don't give you a fair opportunity to defend yourself. I have been in your situation once and had no problem paying my ticket. It was fair, and a real cop would have done the same thing.

But let's say there's some mistake. When you review the video it's clear you are innocent. Too bad. The only way to defend yourself is show up in court. That option can cost you more than the ticket in the form of travel, waiting, and taking time off work. This point is even stronger if you get a ticket while driving down the shore or some other place very far away.


I'm still not following how they're any worse than officer issued tickets. I've had bullshit traffic tickets and there was no video to prove me innocent, and once the damn officer didn't show in court but they didn't dismiss it requiring me to take ANOTHER day off. That can't happen with these at least. And I've had to travel 2 hrs upstate to fight a speed trap ticket.

The cam tickets are not fully automatic, the video is reviewed by a human to see if there actually was a violation, so those flashes during a green don't result in a ticket. I think most of the bitching is people who want to keep running lights.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 16:00
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I've gotten one of those tickets before...If i broke the law, the why shouldn't I be fined. I think red light cameras a re a great way of raising revenue...if you don't want to pay this "tax" then obey the traffic laws.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 15:43
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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heights wrote:
These cameras must be problematic why else would they shut them off at the intersection of Newark and Tonnelle avenues. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _camera_on_routes_19.html


That's funny - that specific intersection is why I would be for removing these cameras, as well (although I suspect that Rich B, a retired policeman himself, is possibly a bit biased in his advocacy for police enforcement rather than camera). I'm often at this light, going west on Newark, to turn left onto 1&9, and have the pleasure of sitting there for 3-5 minutes - and so have noticed that the flashes often go off right in the middle of a green light. IMO, from personal observation, they take pictures far more in error than they do of actual violators.

(and no, I've never gotten a ticket here, myself - thankfully)

Posted on: 2014/3/26 15:19
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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brewster wrote:
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MDM wrote:
IMO, they violate due process.


How's that? It's not a points ticket, it's more like a parking ticket. Do they violate due process too? In fact they're fairer than a parking ticket, you can review the video online. I've been bagged, and now I'm more careful. That's the point isn't it?


They don't give you a fair opportunity to defend yourself. I have been in your situation once and had no problem paying my ticket. It was fair, and a real cop would have done the same thing.

But let's say there's some mistake. When you review the video it's clear you are innocent. Too bad. The only way to defend yourself is show up in court. That option can cost you more than the ticket in the form of travel, waiting, and taking time off work. This point is even stronger if you get a ticket while driving down the shore or some other place very far away.

If studies showed these cameras actually improved safety that's one thing. But as Brick showed us, they don't. And they can increase rear end accidents. They are a pure money grab, just look at Fulop's opposition to this proposal. Why not mandate that all money received from the red light tickets go towards fixing the roads instead of municipal coffers? Let's see Fulop's position then.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 15:18
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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MDM wrote:
IMO, they violate due process.


How's that? It's not a points ticket, it's more like a parking ticket. Do they violate due process too? In fact they're fairer than a parking ticket, you can review the video online. I've been bagged, and now I'm more careful. That's the point isn't it?

Posted on: 2014/3/26 15:10
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I think if we have the technology, we should use it to improve our traffic safety.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 14:15
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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These cameras must be problematic why else would they shut them off at the intersection of Newark and Tonnelle avenues. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _camera_on_routes_19.html

Posted on: 2014/3/26 14:06

Edited by heights on 2014/3/26 14:24:53
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I think many of the people here calling for more cameras simply don't drive much or at all. And they are hypocrites, because if the city was able to track their violations, they would be against it.

How would you feel if the city constructed jaywalking cameras that used facial recognition technology to mail $90 tickets to everyone who jaywalked? I bet you'd see a lot less support from the people currently on their high horses.

Then the horseshoe would be on the other foot. I say get rid of the red light camera warning signs but keep the cameras or put a red light camera warning sign at every traffic light. This way no one would be to the wiser but they will drive safer.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 14:02

Edited by heights on 2014/3/26 14:25:29
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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JCMan8 wrote:
I think many of the people here calling for more cameras simply don't drive much or at all. And they are hypocrites, because if the city was able to track their violations, they would be against it.

How would you feel if the city constructed jaywalking cameras that used facial recognition technology to mail $90 tickets to everyone who jaywalked? I bet you'd see a lot less support from the people currently on their high horses.


How about facial recognition technology to capture people firing loaded guns on the street? Speeding and blowing through stop signs is little different imo. Let Darwin handle the Jaywalkers.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 13:49
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I think many of the people here calling for more cameras simply don't drive much or at all. And they are hypocrites, because if the city was able to track their violations, they would be against it.

How would you feel if the city constructed jaywalking cameras that used facial recognition technology to mail $90 tickets to everyone who jaywalked? I bet you'd see a lot less support from the people currently on their high horses.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 13:41
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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The cameras are nothing more than a source of revenue. IMO, they violate due process.

If Rich gets his way, JC will follow Brick Township:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014 ... lebrates_with_banner.html

Posted on: 2014/3/26 13:14
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I say INCERASE the red light cameras. if one is wrong, one is wrong and they should cameras at every intersection near the Holland tunnel

Posted on: 2014/3/26 10:49
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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Yvonne wrote:
I feel Rich Boggiano is correct on this issue. Other towns faced similar problems but it is a money maker for the city. The city's response - most of the tickets are "out of towners." Which is a poor response.


Rich has the right idea, not sure I'd agree with the reasoning though. Personally I'd like to see stop sign cameras and those movable speed cameras, if the state would allow them. Speeding and people blowing through stop signs are bigger traffic issues locally.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 3:27
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I feel Rich Boggiano is correct on this issue. Other towns faced similar problems but it is a money maker for the city. The city's response - most of the tickets are "out of towners." Which is a poor response.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 3:13
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I just think they're a nuisance issue. The flashes are bright and I feel bad for anyone who tries to sleep in a bedroom facing the street.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 3:06
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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I personally don't like red light cameras because

Rear-End Crashes Go Up After Red-Light Cameras Go In

I am always nervous when traffic light is about to change to red when those pedestrians signs are blinking and check my six for a tailgater in case I stop and he assumes I will run the yellow he will follow right behind me.

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/r ... r-red-light-cameras-go-in


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012 ... cameras_lead_to_more.html

Posted on: 2014/3/26 3:01
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Re: Jersey City councilman wants to pull the plug on red-light cameras
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If his only solution is to bring back cops to do more traffic enforcement, that means even fewer cops to go after real criminals. No, that's not really a solution. Use the technology and fix the flaws.

Posted on: 2014/3/26 2:55
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