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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Home away from home
 
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I agree. But at ANY cost? Isn't there any way to rein in the process? The Boston Big Dig from wiki Although the project was estimated in 1985 at US$6.0 billion (adjusted for inflation as of 2006), over $14.6 billion had been spent in federal and state tax dollars as of 2006. A July 17, 2008 article in The Boston Globe stated, "In all, the project will cost an additional $7 billion in interest, bringing the total to a staggering $22 billion.
Posted on: 2010/10/26 3:24
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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The question really is can NJ afford not to build the tunnel. The state has already paid millions for it, 6,000 workers are employed on the project and the Federal government will yank more than $3 billion if it is not built. And then where is NJ once the economy improves and train traffic soars, crying
Posted on: 2010/10/25 22:48
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Geoff, as a management professional doesn't it bother you that the debate is about passing a potential overrun hot potato onto somebody rather than getting a public works bid process that actually functions, so we can allocate our resources intelligently? It seems like the public is always writing blank checks whether it's for military programs or "big digs".
Posted on: 2010/10/25 22:36
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Just can't stay away
 
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Yes, there's an absolutely compelling need for this project. No argument about that one bit.
Unfortunately, in today's world, there's an equally compelling cost, which we just can't afford to bear. Neither the Federal government, nor the PANYNJ is willing to pick up the burden of cost overruns, which the State of NJ would be saddled with if the newly revised, increased estimates turn out to be wrong. Figure out a way to fix the State's liability for project cost-overruns, and the result might be different.
Posted on: 2010/10/25 21:27
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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There was a train derailment today that will disrupt evening service. If this isn't another reason for a new tunnel, then what is. Even without the derailment, there are constant delays.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... enn-station/?ref=nyregion
Posted on: 2010/10/25 20:03
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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The problem in New Jersey is there is no such thing as a dedicated tax; all tax revenue first goes to the general treasury and afterward is redistributed back. And you are absolutely right, for a number of years under various administrations the Transportation Trust Fund was not getting all of its revenue back. However, NJ still has one of the lowest gas taxes in the nation.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 16:03
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Thank you Governor Christie for putting a stop to it before the politician?s buddies pocketed all of the money. For you new comers and old-timers does any one remember the NJSCC mess? What a waste of tax payer money.
I think in one case in Union City(??) a politician?s friend was tipped of that a new school would be built in the area. He purchased a few lots and actually built a large condo project on one. Knowing that the property was going to be sold to the state for the new school site in the future. Having the unoccupied condo project on it increased the value by a million or 2. ******************************************************************** New Jersey School Construction Corporation (NJSCC)was formed in 2002 by order then Governor James E. McGreevey and charged with managing the site selection, acquisition by eminent domain, and construction of new schools in the Abbott Districts. These districts were named for the landmark cases of Abbott v. Burke, decided by the New Jersey Supreme Court over the last 20 years, which mandated equal spending by the state for inner city school districts. NJSCC, in three years, has blown through $8.6 billion in school construction bond funds. $2.6 billion was allocated and spent on behalf of "suburban schools." In those districts, for the most part, the schools have been built and the improvements made. $6 billion was allocated for the so-called Abbott Districts, those challenged districts located in our urban centers. Newark, Jersey City, Union City, Plainfield, Camden, Paterson, Passaic, and other cities are being cheated. The abortive effort by NJSCC on behalf of the Abbott districts and their children is perhaps one of the biggest scandals in the history of the State of New Jersey. According to the report in today's Star Ledger: New Jersey's $6 billion school construction program ran dry yesterday as state officials approved the last 59 projects they can bankroll, stalling plans for more than 200 other schools and leaving dozens of the state's neediest communities in limbo. Virtually every political supporter fed at the public trough and benefited from NJSCC's largesse: architects, engineers, construction companies, consultants, and yes, even lawyers. All of this money was administered by an inept, inexperienced bureaucracy. The awarding of no bid contracts was rife with insider deals and political payoffs. Acting Governor Richard Codey effectively put a stop to the bleeding by ordering a report from newly installed Inspector General Mary Jane Cooper. On April 22, 2005 she issued a scathing report and put a freeze on all NJSCC's construction, acquisitions by eminent domain, and relocation spending. (See Scathing report sways planner of new schools in Star Ledger archives.)
Posted on: 2010/10/19 15:42
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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The financing was actually provided by the IRT. The private subway operators were guaranteed a nickle fare, which was enough to finance and operate the system.
After WWI when capital controls were lifted and with the Federal reserve now controlling the money supply.. the United States went through a bout of inflation. A nickle wasn't really worth what it was when the contracts were signed. The city forbid the operators from raising fares, which forced them into receivership (there were bankruptcies before the 1940 city takeover). If anyone is interested, there is an excellent history of the NYC subway system (including a bit on the PATH) called "Under the Sidewalks of New York". The book deals with both the politics and engineering challenges with building the system: The builders hit quicksand at one point. One worker got blown through 50 ft of mud an another 30 ft of water during a blowout accident. He lived and suffered only minor injuries. Quote:
Posted on: 2010/10/19 15:10
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Roads really should be a State issue. NJ gas tax collected more than enough to maintain the roads (even though are road construction cost structure is something like 3x the national average). The funds however, were raided over the years to plug budget gaps instead of the use it was intended. That is why the transportation trust fund went broke. I have no problem with gas taxes paying for the upkeep and expansion of the road system (since the gas tax is basically a user fee). However, many states have been using the funds for general revenues. The gas tax just turns into another means of funding a bloated state bureaucracy.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 15:01
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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A few interesting tidbits for those of you insisting that rail transit should let the private sector pick up the tab...
"The Interborough Rapid Transit (IRT) subway opened in 1904. The city contracted construction of the line to the IRT Company, ownership was always held by the city. The IRT built, equipped, and operated the line under a lease from the city." "Beginning in 1913, the city embarked on a project called the Dual Contracts, under which the city built additional lines that were operated as part of the IRT and BMT systems." [source]
Posted on: 2010/10/19 13:47
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Governor still badmouthing ARC tunnel as Lautenberg and Menendez set up North Bergen rally today with construction workers
Tuesday, October 19, 2010 By MIKE FRASSINELLI and SUSAN K. LIVIO THE STAR-LEDGER For Gov. Chris Christie, it has never been a tunnel of love. At best, it was a tunnel of like. Even when he supported the multibillion-dollar Hudson River rail tunnel during his campaign last year, Christie had reservations about the design. Now, with projections running $2.3 billion to $5.3 billion higher than the original $8.7 billion cost, the pricetag has made it a tunnel of hate. And barring a last-minute Hail Mary pass, Christie on Friday will pull the plug - again - on the Access to the Region's Core, or ARC project. Statements yesterday from Christie and NJ Transit Executive Director Jim Weinstein - at separate events in different parts of the state - cast doubt on New Jersey's ability to afford America's largest public works project. Christie, in Trenton, said he was comfortable walking away from the project on Friday, unless the federal government finds another source of money to cover cost overruns. "I don't want to hear about the jobs it will create. If I don't have the money for the payroll," it will not create the jobs, Christie said. "This is not a difficult decision for me." The governor killed the project on Oct. 7 after saying the real cost would be at least $11 billion and that he did not want to put state taxpayers on a "never-ending hook." The next day, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood persuaded Christie to wait two weeks to explore funding options. The reprieve ends on Friday. "Every person who has criticized this decision, ask them a follow-up," Christie said yesterday. "How would you pay for it? I can't write the check if there is no money in the account." Yesterday in Manhattan, LaHood, attending a ceremony unveiling the latest plans for a new Moynihan Station at the Farley Post Office across Eighth Avenue from New York Penn Station, said discussions to save the ARC project were continuing between federal officials and Christie. With a $3 billion federal commitment, the 9-mile tunnel from Secaucus Junction to Midtown Manhattan was intended to double NJ Transit's capacity during rush hour. Proponents said the tunnel would also take cars off the road, create jobs and increase property values along the rail line. At 11 a.m. today, at a tunnel construction site in North Bergen, construction workers are scheduled to join New Jersey Sens. Frank Lautenberg and Robert Menendez, both Democrats, at a rally to tout the importance of the tunnel project to the struggling construction industry.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 13:31
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That was in a different era of easy land condemnation, cheap immigrant labor and no OSHA. Subsidizing rail pays off in overall regional productivity. There's only one way in the world that transit pays it's way, and that's by giving the rail the adjacent land that shoots up in value after the rail is in, subsidizing the fares with rents. I think this is done in Hong Kong or Singapore, both very dense tiny countries. This is also more or less what happened with building our Transcontinental rail system.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 3:41
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Exactly right. And they were built at a reasonable cost, in a reasonable time frame and, as time has shown, were built to last. Christie was right to kill this project that would was already morphing into a union cash cow for the next decade or more at tax payer expense. If this project is such a no brainer then let private financing fund it. Believe me if it is such a win-win situation private financing would be licking their chops to have a piece of it. But they aren't. Know why? Because of the obviously inflated union related costs associated with it.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 3:40
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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Well if the state and federal government would stop subsidizing other forms of transportation, rail travel would be an efficient alternative. Unfortunately, billions of tax dollars go towards expanding highways, artificially lowering the cost of automobile travel. Instead of getting drivers to pay to maintain the roads they travel on by instituting a fuel tax increase, the governor is pillaging the little money made available for rail improvements to fill pot holes.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 1:27
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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The first 2 subway systems in NYC (BMT and the IRT) and the railroad tunnel from NJ to NYC were all built with private funds.
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Posted on: 2010/10/19 0:52
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I consider myself pretty libertarian, and I think there are very few things the government has to do vs private industry, but large-scale infrastructure is one of those things. It's one of the reasons the government exists. We can't just leave this to the capitalists. In this poor economy, even if a new bridge or tunnel was in demand and profitable, it'd be such a huge and potentially high-risk investment, few private companies are in a position to make such an investment right now, even if it had the potential to be lucrative.
Posted on: 2010/10/19 0:18
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http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/tax ... ap-gasoline-tax/19670750/
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie's recent decision to pull the plug on the $8.7 billion "ARC" commuter rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York, the nation's largest public works project, is a testament to the state's decades-long inability to adequately fund its transportation needs. It's also a statement about the governor's refusal to raise the Garden State's gasoline tax, which has remained unchanged at 10.5 cents per gallon since 1988.
Posted on: 2010/10/18 23:56
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I guess Christie is doing his part as a good Republican to bleed out more NJ federal tax money to red states. It sucks, considering we already get, by far, the worst return for our dollar on federal tax payments, less than 60 cents on the dollar. Meanwhile, Mississippi, for instance, gets 2 dollars back for every dollar it puts in. Have you driven on a US highway in Mississippi? US 84 is perfectly manicured 4 lane highway going through nothing but open countryside. Compare that to US 1-9 through North Jersey which is in worse shape than most roads in Baghdad.
These projects themselves aren't the problem. Corruption is the problem. I imagine this project is also riddled with backroom deals and envelopes of cash. I imagine Christie, himself, already has an envelope filled with Xanadu cash from all the swindlers involved in that boondoggle. It doesn't particularly matter anyway, because he's going to quit and try to seek national office rather than run again next time. That writing is on the wall.
Posted on: 2010/10/9 17:43
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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NJ Transit falls under the purview of the executive branch of New Jersey and is exclusive a New Jersey entity. The high level officers at NJ Transit serve at the pleasure of the governor and are appointed by the governor. Appropriations from the state to NJ Transit require legislative approval, but are part of the state budget. The budget process is a give and take with the legislature. The Port Authority is not structured that way. They are a completely independent agency, receive no funds from the state governments and up until the federal government grants for the WTC construction, didn't take money from the feds either. Technical the Port is overseen by the commissioners, but really it falls to the hands of the Executive Director and Asst. Executive Director, appointed positions. By tradition, the Executive director is chosen by NY and the Asst ED is chosen by NJ, but that is not to suggest one state is subordinate to the other. Technical speaking, the governor of either state has no direct authority over the port. That said, either governor can bring the port to its knees by vetoing the official meeting minutes, which prevents the port from taking any actions. This has happened at least once a decade for the last fifty years, and is inspired by building airports or not building airports or spending money on one project and not the other. As to the tunnel itself, its a NJ DOT project, which is part of the executive branch, which falls directly under the authority of the governor. The Transportation Trust Fund is empty. The real reason the governor is pulling the plug on the tunnel is to take NJ's financial contribution to the tunnel and replenish the trust fund. The idea of a Transportation Trust Fund in NJ is a bit of a misnomer; there are no dedicated funds and no dedicated revenue streams in the state budget. Gas taxes are not dedicated to the trust fund. Open space taxes are not dedicated to open space. Tax revenue is collected and put into the treasury and than dolled back out to their respective expenditures. However, certain fees -- NJTransit tickets and tolls -- remain with those agencies. Either way, the real problem is that the 'dedicated' gas taxes have been siphoned away for the last two decades slowly depleting the fund. The only thing the legislature -- who are basically acting like a bunch of soggy noodles -- could accomplish is introduce and pass a gas tax hike, which Christie would inevitably veto, meaning it would be a pointless exercise unless they could override it, which they can't. Of course, the Dem legislators could also at least pretend they held public office and threaten to obstruct everything else Christie wants to do in order to get the tunnel built, but they simply don't have the guts.
Posted on: 2010/10/9 15:51
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If there is enough demand to cross the Hudson, private industry will meet the demand.
The idea that NJ will turn into a domed ghost state because this tunnel doesn't get built is beyond the pale of stupid. I chalk it up to invincible ignorance that despite the massive, constant failures and corruption of government, Chicken Little's still call apocalypse if that same bloated, inefficient, un-creative gubmint isn't given carte blanche to vacuum the money out of the taxpayers pockets. What would be better would be a private/public partnership with actual accountability to the taxpayers, created as a short-term organization to solve the supposed transportation problems. There seem to be much cheaper solutions than diggin' a new tunnel as well. Why, for instance, can't they simply run more trains? With advances in GPS and robotics, why not automate the trains? Let computers run them at closer intervals and higher speeds. Just one of a million solutions that don't involve the dumb-ass solution of "dig another hold George, gotta dig another hole." And if they ARE gonna dig a tunnel, why not add a space for pedestrains, for a light-rail connection, and a bus lane? Stupid stupid stupid and shortsighted.
Posted on: 2010/10/9 13:31
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Is New Jersey Transit structured the same way as the Port Authority in that either governor has unfettered full veto power.
Did the NJ legislature have any say in this? Did they pass a bill authrorizing the expenditure that Christie vetoed? I don't recall any publicity about assembly action? How does Patterson feel about paying NY's third of the costs? Or was the killing a result of CHristie's power of veto over Port Authority acitions and thus ITS third of the cost was killed by him unilaterally. (Forgive the "thirds"...this is what I read but it seems the total involves four or even five thirds  )If so many people are clamoring to get into Manhattan, how come the once touted immense ferry services has turned into such a total dud?
Posted on: 2010/10/9 13:16
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Bob Herbert's op ed today was on the shortsightedness of Christie and the US for that matter. I have a feeling he may have a change of heart as this decision is being portrayed in the media as emblematic of all that is wrong with the US as it heads to second rate status...
Posted on: 2010/10/9 12:18
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Home away from home
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Not quite dead.
Christie to Review Options on Tunnel By PATRICK McGEEHAN The planned rail tunnel under the Hudson River may not be quite dead yet. A day after ordering an end to construction of the tunnel, Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey said Friday that he had agreed to a two-week review of ?several options to potentially salvage a trans-Hudson tunnel project.? Mr. Christie said the unspecified ideas had been presented by Ray LaHood, who is President Obama?s transportation secretary. Mr. LaHood went to Trenton on Friday to meet with Mr. Christie because he was unhappy that the governor had decided to scrap a project that was already under way and that had received a commitment of $6 billion in funds from the federal government and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. On Thursday, Mr. Christie, a Republican, withdrew state support for the project ? known as Access to the Region?s Core, or ARC ? saying that it would cost New Jersey at least $2.5 billion more than expected and that the state could not afford the escalating total. The tunnel was intended to double the number of trains that could enter Manhattan from the west each day. Mr. Christie did not back away from that position on Friday. In a statement issued after his meeting with Mr. LaHood, the governor said, ?The fact that the ARC project is not financially viable and is expected to dramatically exceed its current budget remains unchanged.? But Mr. Christie said he had acceded to Mr. LaHood?s request that he have state transit officials study the options presented by the secretary. Neither Mr. Christie nor Mr. LaHood said what those options were; advocates of the project speculated that they included finding another sponsor to help pay for the tunnel. ?Governor Christie and I had a good discussion this afternoon, during which I presented a number of options for continuing the ARC tunnel project,? Mr. LaHood said in a statement. It would be unusual, but not unprecedented, for a private company to invest in a big public works project, the project?s advocates said. New Jersey?s senior senator, Frank R. Lautenberg, who helped shepherd the project through Congress, cheered Mr. Christie?s announcement, which he characterized as a ?reversal.? ?I expect the governor to now work in good faith with the federal government to move this project forward,? Mr. Lautenberg, a Democrat, said in a statement. ?Governor Christie needs to put politics aside and work on behalf of New Jersey commuters to get this tunnel back on track.? According to Mr. Lautenberg, Mr. LaHood explained to Mr. Christie that if the trans-Hudson tunnel project is not revived, the $3 billion in federal funds will go to transit projects in other states. Much or all of the $3 billion that the Port Authority pledged will probably be available to be spent elsewhere in New Jersey to balance out the vast amounts that the authority has spent rebuilding the World Trade Center site in Manhattan, government officials said. The authority, which derives its revenues from tolls and airport fees, is jointly controlled by the governors of New Jersey and New York. Until last month, the tunnel?s cost was estimated at $8.7 billion. New Jersey had committed about $1.2 billion in highway tolls toward that amount. But Mr. Christie said Thursday that his advisers had determined that the project would cost more than $11 billion and possibly more than $14 billion. Those estimates reinforced the worst fears of mass transit advocates, who had become worried that Mr. Christie was looking for a reason to divert the toll money to the state?s fund for highway improvements. That fund, whose main source is the state?s gas tax, is about to run dry. Mr. Christie said he expected his transportation commissioner, James Simpson, to deliver a plan to replenish the highway fund within a few weeks. He has steadfastly ruled out raising the state gasoline tax as a possible solution to that problem. Those taxes are 14.5 cents a gallon, less than half what New York imposes. Wary as they remain, mass transit advocates welcomed the reprieve the tunnel project received. ?It?s a stay of execution for a project that?s on death row,? said Zoe Baldwin, the New Jersey advocate for the Tri-State Transportation Campaign. ?If nothing else, it buys us time and at least allows us to bring up the need for the project.? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09tunnel.html?hp
Posted on: 2010/10/9 4:00
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I live by the river.
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While I agree with your rationale on this, you're assuming the constituents of the red state and similar constituents analyze and scrutinize their candidates accordingly. Christie comes across as decisive and strong, appealing to the voters who like to rely on the sound bites given to them by the media without having to scratch the surface. His lack of thoughtfulness will never occur to his voters. He could easily win the red and moderate base over. Christie was in law school with me. I don't dislike him and regard him much higher than George W. Bush, McCain and Palin. Still it surprises me he got as far as he did and I would never vote for him. But people like what they see and that base may very well vote him in.
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Posted on: 2010/10/8 22:53
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Yes, but raising the gas tax by itself, however sensible and justified, would violate GOP dogma of only spend, never tax. Christie thinks he has national office potential, but he's deluded of course. No one moderate enough to be elected governor of NJ would even come close to passing the litmus tests of the red state GOP true believers, never mind the Tea Baggers. The center, for the moment, belongs solely to the Dems.
Posted on: 2010/10/8 20:34
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We already have some of the cheapest gas in the country. http://gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx Even raising a few cents on the gas tax would keep our gas cheap without having to send several thousands of people to the unemployment office.
Posted on: 2010/10/8 20:04
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Here's a fantasy: pay for the tunnel by raising the gas tax a couple of pennies AND allowing self serve gas. It would give a fig leaf to his "no new taxes" nonsense and finally break the self-serve deadlock.
Posted on: 2010/10/8 19:35
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Re: Governor Christie halts new train tunnel into Manhattan due to cost overun
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The shuttering of this tunnel is going to hurt Jersey City residential real estate in the long term. The tunnel would have allowed trains lines currently terminating in Hoboken to send at least some trains directly into Manhattan -- meaning fewer commuters boarding the PATH in Hoboken. Right now we have too few trains passing through Jersey City because so many trains go out of Hoboken during the rush. The decrease in trains terminating in Hoboken would have meant fewer PATH trains and less crowded PATH trains leaving Hoboken -- and thus freeing up track space for the JSQ to 33rd Street Line. The JC trains are already overcrowded at rush hour; its a good bet that in the long term, potential residents will be turned off or existing residents move out because of the crowding conditions on JC PATH trains.
Posted on: 2010/10/8 17:36
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Home away from home
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This was my thinking. But I think it would only come from folks without kids deciding to move here. Suburbanites with families would never make their children to live here. A long-overdue NJ gas tax would have helped fund this project.
Posted on: 2010/10/8 17:32
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Focusing on Jersey City: If the roads and rails from the suburbs are going to become more and more congested...could this bode well for JC real estate?
Posted on: 2010/10/8 17:24
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