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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:

I see what you're getting at, though I note that a) this is rapidly changing (many laws on felony animal cruelty are recent), b) speaking of euthanasia, just read this. Euthanasia is becoming legal in several states, and the illegality isn't a matter of the "sanctity of life" but of the power of the religious lobby in this country. I doubt that within a generation that euthanasia will be illegal. Particularly as someone who has seen a grandfather die of a terminal illness and also put to sleep a dog in her final moments of terminal illness.

But your point is well taken. That said, not sure what conclusion I can draw from that.


Vindication seemed confused so I attempted to answer his question. He may not like the answer but so be it. I wasn't really intending for people to draw conclusions.

But to the extent one wants to draw conclusions, I would say that political action is necessary if people wish to change "society's" view on this issue. Judging from your post, it looks like this process is (finally) starting. In my opinion this change is long overdue. It's pretty appalling that in the states that don't have felony animal cruelty laws, some sicko could torture and mutilate animals and only face a 6 month misdemeanor or the like.

But like most political issues, it takes money, time, and organization to effect change.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 22:24
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


You still don't get it? Society has made the determination that human life is always more valuable than animal life.

It may not be a determination that everyone agrees with, especially with certain types of people, but that is the logic.


a) accuracy aside, not sure what this has to do with anything

b) it actually isn't true. Dogs seriously hurt and kill people all the time as part of their jobs (guard dogs, police dogs, etc.) and society recognizes that this is acceptable. Society spends an enormous amount on pet care. The amount I alone spend on my dog would save dozens of children in Africa every month. Plenty of people die even in this country due to lack of funds for healthcare - and yet we spend on our pets and not on them. A large portion of society would save their dog before a random stranger (I certainly would without hesitation). This isn't consistent with your statement.


Your examples are at the individual level. I'm talking about a societal, institutional level.

The enormous amount spent on pet care is the result of individual choices. I get that you're arguing that the looking at these choices in the aggregate = the will of the people and society, but that isn't the case.

The laws in every state uniformly consider human life > animal life. I challenge you to find even a single state where the penalty for assaulting an animal is equal to or greater than assaulting a human. Generally, "mild" abuse of an animal will never get you in trouble whereas major animal abuse could get you charged under animal cruelty laws. My understanding is animal cruelty is a slap on the wrist in many states. While it is treated more seriously in others, the punishments pale in comparison to the human equivalent of aggravated assault or something of the like.

Another example of our notion of the "sanctity" of human life above animal is how we can euthanize very sick dogs but not terminally ill people. Because society believes their lives aren't as important so it is ok to kill them.

And of course, the original topic, which is the permission to kill animals with no home but not people. It's all directly related to society's determination that human life is worth more than animal life.

Please don't confuse me for agreeing with any of this. In fact, I agree with your views on matter. But I'm explaining the answer to Vindication's question. Personally I think a lot of this was originated (and subtly driven) by the meat industry. If society truly placed animal life on the same level as humans, it would be far harder to justify treating animals raised for slaughter as abhorrently as they presently are treated.


I see what you're getting at, though I note that a) this is rapidly changing (many laws on felony animal cruelty are recent), b) speaking of euthanasia, just read this. Euthanasia is becoming legal in several states, and the illegality isn't a matter of the "sanctity of life" but of the power of the religious lobby in this country. I doubt that within a generation that euthanasia will be illegal. Particularly as someone who has seen a grandfather die of a terminal illness and also put to sleep a dog in her final moments of terminal illness.

But your point is well taken. That said, not sure what conclusion I can draw from that.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 18:58
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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How many animals do they care for in one year at a cost of almost one million dollars?

Quote:

bearbear2013 wrote:
LHS does in fact turn away animals, they're not supposed to but they certainly do.

Information from LHS IRS form 990:

LHS brings in a little over a million dollars a year from grants & contributions according to public records for years up to 2013: they received $700k in grants and contributions for 2011 and almost $900k in grants and contributions for 2012.

Of the average $1 million in grants/contributions they bring in yearly:

$600k went to salaries for 2011 and $609k in salaries for 2012

Less than $48k is spent yearly on vet bills

Under $20k is spent for food

Less than $5k is spent for building repairs

If you don't know what's going on at LHS, go and find out...

Posted on: 2014/10/8 18:00
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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JCishome wrote:
Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


Take a look the dog packs running around Tijuana or Detroit sometime. They've reverted to a feral state. People around here get upset when somebody rides their bike on the sidewalk - you think they'll like dogs tearing each other to pieces on the streets? So yeah, it's a sad reality but sometimes unadopted dogs and cats have to be put down. Tell people to stop being a**holes and allowing animals to breed indicriminately. Problem solved.


Except that I said that violent animals should be put to sleep - violence includes violent acts against other animals. Unless you are saying that it is the first instinct of a cat or dog to attack another cat or dog - which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Yes, people riding bikes on sidewalks are dangerous..we should put them to sleep too.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 16:46
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


You still don't get it? Society has made the determination that human life is always more valuable than animal life.

It may not be a determination that everyone agrees with, especially with certain types of people, but that is the logic.


a) accuracy aside, not sure what this has to do with anything

b) it actually isn't true. Dogs seriously hurt and kill people all the time as part of their jobs (guard dogs, police dogs, etc.) and society recognizes that this is acceptable. Society spends an enormous amount on pet care. The amount I alone spend on my dog would save dozens of children in Africa every month. Plenty of people die even in this country due to lack of funds for healthcare - and yet we spend on our pets and not on them. A large portion of society would save their dog before a random stranger (I certainly would without hesitation). This isn't consistent with your statement.


Your examples are at the individual level. I'm talking about a societal, institutional level.

The enormous amount spent on pet care is the result of individual choices. I get that you're arguing that the looking at these choices in the aggregate = the will of the people and society, but that isn't the case.

The laws in every state uniformly consider human life > animal life. I challenge you to find even a single state where the penalty for assaulting an animal is equal to or greater than assaulting a human. Generally, "mild" abuse of an animal will never get you in trouble whereas major animal abuse could get you charged under animal cruelty laws. My understanding is animal cruelty is a slap on the wrist in many states. While it is treated more seriously in others, the punishments pale in comparison to the human equivalent of aggravated assault or something of the like.

Another example of our notion of the "sanctity" of human life above animal is how we can euthanize very sick dogs but not terminally ill people. Because society believes their lives aren't as important so it is ok to kill them.

And of course, the original topic, which is the permission to kill animals with no home but not people. It's all directly related to society's determination that human life is worth more than animal life.

Please don't confuse me for agreeing with any of this. In fact, I agree with your views on matter. But I'm explaining the answer to Vindication's question. Personally I think a lot of this was originated (and subtly driven) by the meat industry. If society truly placed animal life on the same level as humans, it would be far harder to justify treating animals raised for slaughter as abhorrently as they presently are treated.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 16:31
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


You still don't get it? Society has made the determination that human life is always more valuable than animal life.

It may not be a determination that everyone agrees with, especially with certain types of people, but that is the logic.


a) accuracy aside, not sure what this has to do with anything

b) it actually isn't true. Dogs seriously hurt and kill people all the time as part of their jobs (guard dogs, police dogs, etc.) and society recognizes that this is acceptable. Society spends an enormous amount on pet care. The amount I alone spend on my dog would save dozens of children in Africa every month. Plenty of people die even in this country due to lack of funds for healthcare - and yet we spend on our pets and not on them. A large portion of society would save their dog before a random stranger (I certainly would without hesitation). This isn't consistent with your statement.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 15:36
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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JCman24 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCman24 wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
I know of two volunteers that contracted ring worms after being there for brief periods of time.


I bet you don't know what ringworm is.


Seriously?? My auto correct feature split the word in two, hence the improper writing of it. But, yeah, I personally know two people that contracted the fungal infection knowd as ringworm and I don't know what it is. OK.


That was a pretty convenient stretch of time in which to look it up!


You mean the 8 hours that transpired since you posted at 11:23 PM? You sound like those idiots at work that send late night emails and then get annoyed when people haven't answered by 6 AM.

In any case, not sure why I'm even bothering to entertain your silly contention and replies, but if you must know, one of the people that I know got ringworm from volunteering at LHS was my ex. The other person is friend of mine, who also used to volunteer at LHS. But, yeah, the person I lived with got ringworm and I don't know what it is.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 15:28
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


Take a look the dog packs running around Tijuana or Detroit sometime. They've reverted to a feral state. People around here get upset when somebody rides their bike on the sidewalk - you think they'll like dogs tearing each other to pieces on the streets? So yeah, it's a sad reality but sometimes unadopted dogs and cats have to be put down. Tell people to stop being a**holes and allowing animals to breed indicriminately. Problem solved.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 14:20
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCman24 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
I know of two volunteers that contracted ring worms after being there for brief periods of time.


I bet you don't know what ringworm is.


Seriously?? My auto correct feature split the word in two, hence the improper writing of it. But, yeah, I personally know two people that contracted the fungal infection knowd as ringworm and I don't know what it is. OK.


That was a pretty convenient stretch of time in which to look it up!

Posted on: 2014/10/8 13:56
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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JCman24 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
I know of two volunteers that contracted ring worms after being there for brief periods of time.


I bet you don't know what ringworm is.


Seriously?? My auto correct feature split the word in two, hence the improper writing of it. But, yeah, I personally know two people that contracted the fungal infection knowd as ringworm and I don't know what it is. OK.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 12:04
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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vindication15 wrote:
I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel


You still don't get it? Society has made the determination that human life is always more valuable than animal life.

It may not be a determination that everyone agrees with, especially with certain types of people, but that is the logic.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 3:50
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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I find it very inhumane that a dog or cat is killed because there is no space. The street is not ideal but it's preferable than death!!

We don't even kill convicted criminals because lack of space... You people are cruel

Posted on: 2014/10/8 3:27
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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thor800 wrote:
There are space issues that need to be considered also. Ideally a shelter would be able to accept as many dogs as possible but if there aren't as many adoptions with limited space - what other options are there ?



Umm the most obvious choice - let them live on the street.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 3:24
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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bodhipooh wrote:
I know of two volunteers that contracted ring worms after being there for brief periods of time.


I bet you don't know what ringworm is.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 3:17
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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There are space issues that need to be considered also. Ideally a shelter would be able to accept as many dogs as possible but if there aren't as many adoptions with limited space - what other options are there ?


Posted on: 2014/10/8 3:02
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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vindication15 wrote:
If they can turn away strays - back into the streets, then the only reason why they would kill animals is because the animals are suffering but from the posts I gather that is not the case?

What is the issue with a non violent stray dog or cat in the street? In fact, i would argue that a non violent homeless person does more harm than a non violent stray - and the harm done is decreasing my property value.


I certainly agree with this, but I have noticed that in the United States this is the minority view. But a spay, neuter and release for both cats and dogs is ideal in my view. Especially if you combine with a mandatory spay/neuter law unless you pay a "breeder fee".

Posted on: 2014/10/8 2:49
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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CatsnDogs wrote:
dtjcview - you can support grassroots non-profit animal organizations that do not kill. Local groups are Companion Animal Trust, Hudson County Animal League, Jersey Cats, to name a few. None of these receive municipal funding and rely only on donations.

www.companionanimaltrust.org

www.hcalnj.org

www.jerseycats.org




Thanks - I appreciate the links - I'll check them out.


Just FYI - those are for cats only.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 2:47
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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If they can turn away strays - back into the streets, then the only reason why they would kill animals is because the animals are suffering but from the posts I gather that is not the case?

What is the issue with a non violent stray dog or cat in the street? In fact, i would argue that a non violent homeless person does more harm than a non violent stray - and the harm done is decreasing my property value.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 2:45
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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LHS does in fact turn away animals, they're not supposed to but they certainly do.

Information from LHS IRS form 990:

LHS brings in a little over a million dollars a year from grants & contributions according to public records for years up to 2013: they received $700k in grants and contributions for 2011 and almost $900k in grants and contributions for 2012.

Of the average $1 million in grants/contributions they bring in yearly:

$600k went to salaries for 2011 and $609k in salaries for 2012

Less than $48k is spent yearly on vet bills

Under $20k is spent for food

Less than $5k is spent for building repairs

If you don't know what's going on at LHS, go and find out...

Posted on: 2014/10/8 2:37
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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vindication15 wrote:
If we do not kill homeless people because of overcrowding of shelters, why do we kill stray cats and dogs that can just be turned away from overcrowded shelters?


False dichotomy...

First of all, not at all strays are killed. Second, LHS can not turn away any animals. They are the official pound for the City. Even if they could turn away an animal, where would they turn it away to? There are no other shelters in town, or in surrounding communities. LHS provides the pound service for Hoboken, as well.

Posted on: 2014/10/8 1:07
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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vindication15 wrote:
Let me first say I am in no way arguing for this but i make a point only for logical reasons.

If we do not kill homeless people because of overcrowding of shelters, why do we kill stray cats and dogs that can just be turned away from overcrowded shelters?

Now if it is a violent cat or dog that has harmed someone than just like a murderous human being, it should be killed.


Because society has made the determination that human life is worth more than animal life.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 22:26
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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Let me first say I am in no way arguing for this but i make a point only for logical reasons.

If we do not kill homeless people because of overcrowding of shelters, why do we kill stray cats and dogs that can just be turned away from overcrowded shelters?

Now if it is a violent cat or dog that has harmed someone than just like a murderous human being, it should be killed.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 22:21
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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JCishome wrote:
I'll admit I'm not overly well-informed on this, but the "no-kill" idea does seem like a lofty yet unrealistic goal for Jersey City. Consider that a lot of the dogs they're taking in are pit bulls or mixes, and those are very difficult to adopt out (unfairly, by the way - they're very often sweet, loving dogs). I suspect that a lot of those no-kill shelters are dealing with a lot of smaller, more benign-looking dogs.


I don't object to what they do. I just object to funding it through charity contributions. It's a service the city MUST provide. I'd rather support efforts to save animals, than efforts to round up strays and kill them.

Like - I wouldn't donate to running the county prison service - my taxes already pay for that.

PS: hcalnj.org looks like a good alternative. I'm a sucker for both cats and dogs.


Why MUST they provide this service?

Is that a legitimate question?

Posted on: 2014/10/7 21:09
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

JCishome wrote:
I'll admit I'm not overly well-informed on this, but the "no-kill" idea does seem like a lofty yet unrealistic goal for Jersey City. Consider that a lot of the dogs they're taking in are pit bulls or mixes, and those are very difficult to adopt out (unfairly, by the way - they're very often sweet, loving dogs). I suspect that a lot of those no-kill shelters are dealing with a lot of smaller, more benign-looking dogs.


I don't object to what they do. I just object to funding it through charity contributions. It's a service the city MUST provide. I'd rather support efforts to save animals, than efforts to round up strays and kill them.

Like - I wouldn't donate to running the county prison service - my taxes already pay for that.

PS: hcalnj.org looks like a good alternative. I'm a sucker for both cats and dogs.


Why MUST they provide this service?

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:51
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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JCishome wrote:
I'll admit I'm not overly well-informed on this, but the "no-kill" idea does seem like a lofty yet unrealistic goal for Jersey City. Consider that a lot of the dogs they're taking in are pit bulls or mixes, and those are very difficult to adopt out (unfairly, by the way - they're very often sweet, loving dogs). I suspect that a lot of those no-kill shelters are dealing with a lot of smaller, more benign-looking dogs.


I don't object to what they do. I just object to funding it through charity contributions. It's a service the city MUST provide. I'd rather support efforts to save animals, than efforts to round up strays and kill them.

Like - I wouldn't donate to running the county prison service - my taxes already pay for that.

PS: hcalnj.org looks like a good alternative. I'm a sucker for both cats and dogs.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:40
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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I'll admit I'm not overly well-informed on this, but the "no-kill" idea does seem like a lofty yet unrealistic goal for Jersey City. Consider that a lot of the dogs they're taking in are pit bulls or mixes, and those are very difficult to adopt out (unfairly, by the way - they're very often sweet, loving dogs). I suspect that a lot of those no-kill shelters are dealing with a lot of smaller, more benign-looking dogs.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:29
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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CatsnDogs wrote:
dtjcview - you can support grassroots non-profit animal organizations that do not kill. Local groups are Companion Animal Trust, Hudson County Animal League, Jersey Cats, to name a few. None of these receive municipal funding and rely only on donations.

www.companionanimaltrust.org

www.hcalnj.org

www.jerseycats.org




Thanks - I appreciate the links - I'll check them out.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:27
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
#49
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dtjcview - you can support grassroots non-profit animal organizations that do not kill. Local groups are Companion Animal Trust, Hudson County Animal League, Jersey Cats, to name a few. None of these receive municipal funding and rely only on donations.

www.companionanimaltrust.com

www.hcalnj.org

www.jerseycats.org



Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:23
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
#48
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bodhipooh wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
Is LHS a kill shelter? Because if it is - they lose every single penny from me.


A "kill shelter"? Really, this is how you want to frame it?? Are you one of those people that frames the abortion debate as "pro-life" and "pro-death"???

Some shelters choose to be "no kill", but that doesn't make the other shelters "pro kill"!!

For historical perspective on this issue, you should search the forums here. The former head of LHS tried to implement a "no kill" policy without a mandate to do so. The results were disastrous. In order to become a "no kill" shelter, you must have a HUGE network of fostering volunteers, plus on site volunteers, plus strong relations with local rescue organizations. Overnight, she tried to make LHS into a "no kill" shelter and the obvious, logical results were an overabundance of cats (at one point, they had over 300!) excessive volunteer turnover and spread of disease. I know of two volunteers that contracted ring worms after being there for brief periods of time.

People love to have lofty dreams of how things should be, but fail to account for the complexities of reality.

Oh, sorry, forgot to address your question: Is LHS a kill shelter? No, they are a humane shelter doing the best it can to provide a much needed service to our community and that of surrounding towns.


...a much needed service that the government should be paying for anyways.

Nice thing about charity is that I get to decide where my dollars go. And in my lofty dream, my charity dollars are not going to a kill shelter.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:12
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Re: Funding Cut by $83,560 To Our Local Animal Shelter LHS
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You bet No Kill takes a lot of hard work but it starts with the decision to be No Kill. Like all the communities listed on the blog, they decided that they wanted to become No Kill and they have achieved it. Stop enabling the killing and making excuses that allow the killing to continue. There are 3,500 shelters in this country. If there are a 100 - 200 of them that have achieved No Kill status you have to accept the reality that the killing can stop.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 18:26
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