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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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mfadam wrote:
The phase in logic doesn't add up. Most DTJC rowhouse owners CAN PAY, they just don't want to pay. The artist who bought in 1995 and has a $1mm unrealized capital gain can borrow against equity to pay. The yuppie who bought in the last 3 years can pay.

Turn your argument around - do you think the guy in BELA who has been overpaying for years thinks the phase in is fair? Should he keep overpaying albeit in smaller amounts each year?

JC is long overdue to fix this reverse Robin Hood mess.

Any reval appraisals will take into consideration the new tax structure when valuing the homes. It is simple bond math.

The bigger issue is will DTJC rowhouses be attractive when they sport 30K in property taxes. I think the psychology is the million dollar question..


Jersey City market values are driven by it's close proximity to NYC. I can't stand when someone pretends that a 700k brownstone is the equivalent of a 700k house in the suburbs sitting on 2 acres of property. The brownstone in JC sits on a 25x100 lot if lucky. There is a larger tax base here plus tremendous business and industry to offset taxes. The truth is those in cities should pay less then those in sparsely populated areas. If u want to use NYC as a comparison go ahead. Taxes on similarly valued property are a fraction of what people in JC pay even using the old assessed values.

And Brewster you are constantly playing devil's advocate. Judging from the fact u are a long time resident of Hamilton Park you may just be in for a surprise when the reval hits.

Posted on: 2/16 15:28
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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GrovePath wrote:
Most on here who want the reval are real estate speculators who bought buildings in the last 10 years and got good deals because the taxes were a bit high and now they want to get a brake on those taxes.

Please stop acting like you want to help the poor.

GP, you usually don't post this silly. Any RE professional who buys an overtaxed building immediately appeals the tax. It's the uneducated homeowners who are getting ripped off.

Posted on: 2/16 15:06
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Most on here who want the reval are real estate speculators who bought buildings in the last 10 years and got good deals because the taxes were a bit high and now they want to get a brake on those taxes.

Please stop acting like you want to help the poor.


Posted on: 2/16 14:07
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
I'm not proposing how that be done, but it should be done, and only a one time exception. *Every* property owner and the city itself will be much better off with that approach than following the current statute, which under the current scenario will wreck havoc on the city.


Please tell us how you explain to owners who have been overpaying for many years, that outnumber the underpayers, that it's in their best interest to overpay a few more so others can continue to underpay?

This has been in the works and the press for quite a few years, everybody should be properly braced by now. Some like DanL and Yvonne have sold (leaving much gain on the table), but it'll be a surprise to few. Dragging it out further is pandering.

Posted on: 2/16 12:02
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The phase in logic doesn't add up. Most DTJC rowhouse owners CAN PAY, they just don't want to pay. The artist who bought in 1995 and has a $1mm unrealized capital gain can borrow against equity to pay. The yuppie who bought in the last 3 years can pay.

Turn your argument around - do you think the guy in BELA who has been overpaying for years thinks the phase in is fair? Should he keep overpaying albeit in smaller amounts each year?

JC is long overdue to fix this reverse Robin Hood mess.

Any reval appraisals will take into consideration the new tax structure when valuing the homes. It is simple bond math.

The bigger issue is will DTJC rowhouses be attractive when they sport 30K in property taxes. I think the psychology is the million dollar question..

Posted on: 2/16 11:58
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How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.


By phasing-in the reval, those who will end up with lower property taxes will do so with permanency.

The tax reval statutes were written under the assumption a municipality regularly does a reval. Obviously, J.C. hasn't and from the political perspective, there is all the more incentive to dig its heels in further and delay.

Without a phase-in, once the reval is complete, you will have property owners that will have their taxes double, triple, or quadruple overnight.

When that happens, many will be unable to pay their property taxes. When they don't pay, guess who pays? Answer: everyone else when the tax rate increases.

Additionally, property taxes influence real estate values. When your taxes increase 4xs overnight, that is not good for the value of your home.

Property tax amounts are determined, in part by the assessed (loosely market) value of the property.

When the property values tank, those owners will appeal their tax bill successfully. When they pay less, that means everyone else pays more - without making cuts to the budget.

My point is, yes there will be folks who will save on taxes, post reval, but they can save even more if the reval is phased in.

I'm not proposing how that be done, but it should be done, and only a one time exception. *Every* property owner and the city itself will be much better off with that approach than following the current statute, which under the current scenario will wreck havoc on the city.

I wrote about this some time ago, here. Sometimes it takes a little foresight to think one step ahead.

Posted on: 2/16 11:06
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bodhipooh wrote:

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.


Except that most of them have large mortgages, student debt, car payments, and spend too much of their disposable income on dining out, etc.

Have you heard of the expression "house rich, cash poor"? This is common among homeowners downtown...and everywhere.

Posted on: 2/16 11:00
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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When do 2018 appraised values have to be sent out? Is it possible we have the election on November 7 then get our new appraised values/tax a few days later?

Posted on: 2/16 10:59
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mfadam wrote:
Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...


Exactly. So, it should come as NO SURPRISE that this administration will do ANYTHING possible to put off the reval until after the election happening later this year. Once re-elected, the administration would be more likely to survive the repercussions of the reval by weathering the criticism and fallout until the next election in 2021.

Posted on: 2/16 10:38
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Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...

Posted on: 2/16 10:20
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Also, it is pretty amusing that all liberals and progressives are in favor of "fair taxation" that expects the wealthy to pay their "fair share" in the form of MORE taxes, until they realize they are actually part of that wealthy group and now it is all about "wait, no, think about us, the 'middle class', how can I be expected to pay that much more in taxes?"

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.
i love limousine liberals, don't you?

Posted on: 2/16 9:45
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Also, it is pretty amusing that all liberals and progressives are in favor of "fair taxation" that expects the wealthy to pay their "fair share" in the form of MORE taxes, until they realize they are actually part of that wealthy group and now it is all about "wait, no, think about us, the 'middle class', how can I be expected to pay that much more in taxes?"

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.

Posted on: 2/16 8:43
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At this point, I think it is safe to assume that the reval will not be completed on time for the 2018 bills. So, what is that, a 5-year delay? There is your delay. I am REALLY surprised the city has been able to get away with these shenanigans for so long.

Posted on: 2/16 8:39
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T-Bird wrote:
How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.


State aid to reward a city for not having a reval in almost three decades? I don't see that happening, especially given the billions and billions of dollars (yes, billions) the state taxpayers already give JC.

Posted on: 2/16 7:54
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How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.

Posted on: 2/16 5:54
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I believe it could be phased over 3 years which JC Together recommended. They also supported legislation to extend to 5 years. But, the city will have delayed close to 4 more years, achieving similar effect. And once the city committed and engaged a reval firm, it now has failed to finalize the tax maps (which work should have been initiated back in May).

While a phase in would appear reasonable, the city has willfully delayed it at every turn. Does it make sense to further delay?





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GrovePath wrote:
That would be great to have an adjustment period.

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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 21:14
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That would be great to have an adjustment period.

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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 20:20
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Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


And how is that fair to people overpaying? Seems a great way to create a class action suit. I'm amazed there isn't one already over the long delayed reval. I'm not lawyer, but surely you can sue for being overcharged for many years because the city ignored the state law requiring a reval when the equalization drops below 85%.

Posted on: 2/15 20:01
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When Newark was forced to do a reval, I spoke to one of their Councilmen, sorry I forgot who. He told me he had a bill in the state legislation to allow Newark to have a five year increment period. I don't know what happened but usually Newark gets legislation passed.

Posted on: 2/15 16:00
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Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:51
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Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:49
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Fair Haven is quite close to NYC ferries, and it's a lot more relaxing than auto/bus/train commuting. I would imagine most living there who work in NYC can afford the higher cost.

Posted on: 1/26 14:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!


Grew up in Fair Haven. My Dad's commute to Manhattan was hellish. The commuter trains were horrible back then (1970s, bankrupt Central Railroad). He just ended up driving... Then his car while parked in Manhattan got stolen.

Posted on: 1/26 11:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!

Posted on: 1/26 11:15
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Those taxes were based off the old house before they tore it down. The most recent property card was at $16k, a 23% increase from the 13k. That was before it sold for 1.7M. That house will eventually be up to the high 20's.

Posted on: 1/26 10:54
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Sutherland wrote:
This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.



Not sure what point you are trying to make... there's only two ways we can get lower taxes in JC:
- double real estate across the city, thereby doubling property tax revenue, while somehow maintaining the city budget at the same level as now
- find ways to slash the city budget (start with all the graft and corruption, of course)

You can't compare our city with another one without taking into consideration all aspects: what's in the city budget, what's total revenue in property taxes, how many residents live in each city, what services is the city providing.

In a very well to do town, public assistance may be near zero, which I'm sure it's a large chunk of our budget (the city provides grants for social programs and such, along with other subsidies such as public housing). Also, I think our large geographical size works against us: lots of roads and infrastructure to maintain. Some NJ towns are tiny, with much lower vehicular traffic, which I'm sure results in a lot less money spent on road maintenance. Also, and perhaps most significant, are the police and fire department budgets: in between pensions, salaries and all other operational costs, those are two huge budget items.

Now, imagine what would happen to our taxes if we were some day required to fund a larger share of our school budget. :o

Posted on: 1/26 10:33
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.


Posted on: 1/26 10:18
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so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times


$2,750/month sounds very low to me for a floor-through apartment in DTJC, particularly considering they have a few amenities like a deck, and laundry facilities right in the basement. People are now paying 2.5K for 1bd/1ba in new construction, and 3.5k for 2bd/1ba. If you can find a 3bd in new construction, you will pay north of 4K, with some places getting close to 5K. That's the DTJC real estate market...! :o

Posted on: 1/24 8:14
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so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times

Posted on: 1/24 2:46
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That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?


I do think a positive, unintended consequence will be that it will finally get the owners of a lot of vacant lots that dot Downtown to stop waiting around for a super lucrative offer and finally sell. I also think a lot of the slumlords will find their properties too expensive to carry and may force out some of the remaining riff raff.

Posted on: 1/23 20:19
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