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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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bodhipooh wrote:

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.


Except that most of them have large mortgages, student debt, car payments, and spend too much of their disposable income on dining out, etc.

Have you heard of the expression "house rich, cash poor"? This is common among homeowners downtown...and everywhere.

Posted on: 2/16 11:00
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When do 2018 appraised values have to be sent out? Is it possible we have the election on November 7 then get our new appraised values/tax a few days later?

Posted on: 2/16 10:59
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mfadam wrote:
Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...


Exactly. So, it should come as NO SURPRISE that this administration will do ANYTHING possible to put off the reval until after the election happening later this year. Once re-elected, the administration would be more likely to survive the repercussions of the reval by weathering the criticism and fallout until the next election in 2021.

Posted on: 2/16 10:38
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Steve knows he's on thin ice with a lot of the DTJC voters who are less than pleased with what he has actually done while in office.

Throw in another 10-20K per year in RE taxes for the $1mm plus rowhouse crowd and you can bet the votes/donations will be tough to come by...

Posted on: 2/16 10:20
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Also, it is pretty amusing that all liberals and progressives are in favor of "fair taxation" that expects the wealthy to pay their "fair share" in the form of MORE taxes, until they realize they are actually part of that wealthy group and now it is all about "wait, no, think about us, the 'middle class', how can I be expected to pay that much more in taxes?"

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.
i love limousine liberals, don't you?

Posted on: 2/16 9:45
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Also, it is pretty amusing that all liberals and progressives are in favor of "fair taxation" that expects the wealthy to pay their "fair share" in the form of MORE taxes, until they realize they are actually part of that wealthy group and now it is all about "wait, no, think about us, the 'middle class', how can I be expected to pay that much more in taxes?"

If you are sitting on a property 700K or more, which is pretty much most of DTJC, you *are* wealthy by pretty much any metric out there. Even by regional standards, you are doing very well... time to get this reval done and really get local fair taxation in place.

Posted on: 2/16 8:43
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At this point, I think it is safe to assume that the reval will not be completed on time for the 2018 bills. So, what is that, a 5-year delay? There is your delay. I am REALLY surprised the city has been able to get away with these shenanigans for so long.

Posted on: 2/16 8:39
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How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.


State aid to reward a city for not having a reval in almost three decades? I don't see that happening, especially given the billions and billions of dollars (yes, billions) the state taxpayers already give JC.

Posted on: 2/16 7:54
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How would a phase-in work, though? To Brewster's point - the only way you can not delay fully raising the taxes of those due an increase is by delaying lowering the taxes of those due a cut, unless there is either something else to fill the gap like state aid or the city goes without a chunk of revenue. Neither seems likely.

Posted on: 2/16 5:54
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I believe it could be phased over 3 years which JC Together recommended. They also supported legislation to extend to 5 years. But, the city will have delayed close to 4 more years, achieving similar effect. And once the city committed and engaged a reval firm, it now has failed to finalize the tax maps (which work should have been initiated back in May).

While a phase in would appear reasonable, the city has willfully delayed it at every turn. Does it make sense to further delay?





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GrovePath wrote:
That would be great to have an adjustment period.

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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 21:14
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That would be great to have an adjustment period.

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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 20:20
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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


And how is that fair to people overpaying? Seems a great way to create a class action suit. I'm amazed there isn't one already over the long delayed reval. I'm not lawyer, but surely you can sue for being overcharged for many years because the city ignored the state law requiring a reval when the equalization drops below 85%.

Posted on: 2/15 20:01
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When Newark was forced to do a reval, I spoke to one of their Councilmen, sorry I forgot who. He told me he had a bill in the state legislation to allow Newark to have a five year increment period. I don't know what happened but usually Newark gets legislation passed.

Posted on: 2/15 16:00
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135jc wrote:
Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.


There was talk of getting the state Legislature to OK that but I do not believe the city can legally do it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:51
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Has anyone heard that any tax increase from the reval would be stepped in over 5 yrs? I was told this the other day but can't find info on it.

Posted on: 2/15 15:49
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Fair Haven is quite close to NYC ferries, and it's a lot more relaxing than auto/bus/train commuting. I would imagine most living there who work in NYC can afford the higher cost.

Posted on: 1/26 14:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!


Grew up in Fair Haven. My Dad's commute to Manhattan was hellish. The commuter trains were horrible back then (1970s, bankrupt Central Railroad). He just ended up driving... Then his car while parked in Manhattan got stolen.

Posted on: 1/26 11:47
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.

yes, i just love fair haven's proximity to manhattan and their quick access to manhattan!

Posted on: 1/26 11:15
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Those taxes were based off the old house before they tore it down. The most recent property card was at $16k, a 23% increase from the 13k. That was before it sold for 1.7M. That house will eventually be up to the high 20's.

Posted on: 1/26 10:54
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Sutherland wrote:
This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.



Not sure what point you are trying to make... there's only two ways we can get lower taxes in JC:
- double real estate across the city, thereby doubling property tax revenue, while somehow maintaining the city budget at the same level as now
- find ways to slash the city budget (start with all the graft and corruption, of course)

You can't compare our city with another one without taking into consideration all aspects: what's in the city budget, what's total revenue in property taxes, how many residents live in each city, what services is the city providing.

In a very well to do town, public assistance may be near zero, which I'm sure it's a large chunk of our budget (the city provides grants for social programs and such, along with other subsidies such as public housing). Also, I think our large geographical size works against us: lots of roads and infrastructure to maintain. Some NJ towns are tiny, with much lower vehicular traffic, which I'm sure results in a lot less money spent on road maintenance. Also, and perhaps most significant, are the police and fire department budgets: in between pensions, salaries and all other operational costs, those are two huge budget items.

Now, imagine what would happen to our taxes if we were some day required to fund a larger share of our school budget. :o

Posted on: 1/26 10:33
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This beautiful Fair Haven home, which just sold for $1.7 mm has real estate taxes of $13,000.00. I'm confident their public schools are better than JC, they have less crime than JC, probably not as many water main breaks, which seems to be a regular occurrence and fewer pot holes.

http://realestate.nj.com/realestate-n ... ng.html#incart_river_home

Of course I anticipate someone telling me to move to Fair Haven if I wanted lower real estate taxes. However, I do think it's a worthwhile metric.


Posted on: 1/26 10:18
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times


$2,750/month sounds very low to me for a floor-through apartment in DTJC, particularly considering they have a few amenities like a deck, and laundry facilities right in the basement. People are now paying 2.5K for 1bd/1ba in new construction, and 3.5k for 2bd/1ba. If you can find a 3bd in new construction, you will pay north of 4K, with some places getting close to 5K. That's the DTJC real estate market...! :o

Posted on: 1/24 8:14
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.
are rents that highn in dtjc? $2,750 per month per apt seems like a lot to me, but maybe i'm behind the times

Posted on: 1/24 2:46
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brewster wrote:
That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?


I do think a positive, unintended consequence will be that it will finally get the owners of a lot of vacant lots that dot Downtown to stop waiting around for a super lucrative offer and finally sell. I also think a lot of the slumlords will find their properties too expensive to carry and may force out some of the remaining riff raff.

Posted on: 1/23 20:19
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brewster wrote:
That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.


I suspect there will be many investment properties that are technically residential (4 units or less) that might become cash flow negative after the reval. I wonder if we will have a flood of buildings for sale hitting the market say about six months after the reval take effect?

Posted on: 1/23 19:50
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I must say I am looking forward with fascination to seeing what the citys appraisers do about the commercial properties that are valued by income. That property we're discussing shows how ridiculous a disparity there is between comps and cap rates. Ignoramuses like Yvonne have complained about this before, that houses are valued more than commercial, and now it's going to be on steroids.

Posted on: 1/23 19:22
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the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.[/quote]

I forgot about FHA. I did two 203k loans and they were an experience I would rather forget.

Rent played almost no role in the conventional loans I did years back, which meant I had rather tiny mortgages (and lots of capital stranded in the property). BCB bank was the only one willing to do a mortgage based on rent and improved value. They were also the only bank that gave me a reasonable construction loan.

Other than 203k loans, I financed the bulk of the construction work on credit cards (again.. something I would rather forget).

Posted on: 1/23 17:24
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brewster wrote:
At 4U they weight it more as a commercial by rents than a residential by comps, and even the most corrupt appraiser can't make those numbers work. The question is why sell it as a 4U subject to tougher rent based appraisals rather than condos where comps are all?



1 to 4 units is generally considered 'residential' and rents don't count. Pre housing bubble days, I had an issue getting mortgages in part because the comp sales around me were so low. The comparison were useless because they were non-renovated buildings. My rent receivable were 100% to 150% higher, but since I was 'residential' rental income didn't count towards the appraised value.

the FHA appraisal form uses three different methodologies, comps, rents and replacement. Depends on the appraiser the different weights applied to each method and coming up with the final appraisal. A non-owner-occupied investment 4U should have more weight on rents but the incompetence and venality of appraisers these days is beyond comprehension.

Posted on: 1/23 17:20
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mfadam wrote:
so check this out - 133 Mercer St being listed for $3.595mm. They list in their financials page that they pay about 21K in property tax. If they even get 2.5mm they are still gonna see a big uptick in property taxes.

This building is cut up into 4 floor through rentals. It is well maintained and still has a lot of detail.

Maybe I'm underestimating the feeding frenzy in DTJC but I'm not sure 3.595mm is realistic with a $131K rent roll. Perhaps others who know mutli family finance can chime in on what a typical multiple is to annual roll.

Here's the webpage for the building with details...
http://www.133mercer.com/financials.html



$3.595 million for a property with annual revenue of $131,000?? Plus, I'm pretty sure their yearly financial pro forma is wrong for not including maintenance, reserves and a vacancy allowance. Insurance also seems low for a four-family investment.

Posted on: 1/23 13:29
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totally agree. Simple math is not fear mongering. RE brokers really should do the right thing and disclose the probability that many homes will see significant tax increases. I'm not holding my breath...

I really think the test for DTJC RE is psychological. It was one thing when you could get a single family rowhouse for $1mm and change and pay 12K in taxes. It's a whole different ballgame when you are paying $2mm+ and 40K in RE taxes. All of sudden the so-so services, weak public schools, PATH crowding, etc don't seem like such a good value for the RE taxes being paid. Put another way - will people pay Summit, NJ taxes and accept inner city service levels.

Time will tell...

Posted on: 1/23 12:18
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