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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Stupid question: What was the point of people going door-to-door if they don't have to enter the premises?

I had someone from the city come to my apt. I let the guy in so he could see I had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt. One of my neighbors told the surveyor he had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt when I know for a fact he has a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt. Obviously the city has records as its been a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt for almost 30 years.

I am worried about the neighbor who gutted his apt and rebuilt it without permits. He wouldn't let the surveyor in. While it is true he has a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt, he made improvements to make his apt worth several thousands of dollars more than mine, yet we pay the same taxes.

How is the city going to compensate for that? Let me guess, they won't.

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Again, Brewster, I did not order the reval nor did I stop the reval. Bring your questions to the man who sits in the chair at 280 Grove St.

Posted on: Yesterday 21:05
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Yvonne wrote:
Don't forget the downtown property 109 Grand St. that is now a 3 unit condo, Brewster and the total taxes are $48,000.


So...f@#king...what. How can you be so insistent and not understand taxes at all? Without citing any other numbers the taxes prove nothing whatsoever. There's no sales or tax info on that property online. As someone who has repeatedly appealed her taxes, you SHOULD know they're only overtaxed if the 3 units are worth greater than 15% less than the $2.1m value their taxes indicate.

No, you did not stop the reval but you did your best to create a public hostility to it. You have been loudly and studiously sowing confusion about JC taxes and the reval for many years. Every time the issue of the reval and tax fairness has come up you have moaned about the poor equity rich people who might be asked to pay their fair taxes, and railed against owners of abated properties who in reality, a state unknown to you, were often paying taxes higher than you were Downtown.

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JParkhurst wrote (elsewhere):
We own a row house in the VVP area and we then purchased our condo in Gulls Cove. The two bedroom “abated” Gulls Cove pays several thousand more in taxes than the two FAMILY brownstone.



Posted on: Yesterday 20:39
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mwa7368 wrote:
If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!


Everything is relative, perhaps you're just comparing to undertaxed properties. what is your real tax rate, tax/market value? The metric the County uses is the "Ratio", 100 x assessment /market value. I think it's supposed to be 32.4 for 2014. they allow a 15% margin of error before declaring it high enough to appeal.

I have a property in the Heights that's paying 3.48% of it's purchase price in 2012, with a ratio of 46.7. That's 3 1/2 times the tax rate that Yvonne was paying, and many Downtown pre-88 properties are paying. Can you top that?

Cmon, non-Downtowners, tell us your numbers! Or tell us anybodys you want, you can look it up here:http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906


I was going to look up the councilor's property tax bills and post them - but the first name I checked is grossly overpaying tax - and I don't particularly care to let the individual know.

Posted on: Yesterday 19:06
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Don't forget the downtown property 109 Grand St. that is now a 3 unit condo, Brewster and the total taxes are $48,000. By the way, Brewster, if you are upset that the reval did not happen then speak to the mayor in city hall, I did not stop the reval.

Posted on: Yesterday 16:37
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mwa7368 wrote:
If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!


Everything is relative, perhaps you're just comparing to undertaxed properties. what is your real tax rate, tax/market value? The metric the County uses is the "Ratio", 100 x assessment /market value. I think it's supposed to be 32.4 for 2014. they allow a 15% margin of error before declaring it high enough to appeal.

I have a property in the Heights that's paying 3.48% of it's purchase price in 2012, with a ratio of 46.7. That's 3 1/2 times the tax rate that Yvonne was paying, and many Downtown pre-88 properties are paying. Can you top that?

Cmon, non-Downtowners, tell us your numbers! Or tell us anybodys you want, you can look it up here:http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906

Posted on: Yesterday 16:15
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If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!

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mwa7368 wrote:
I don't see how it's fair that people who moved to JC in the last 10 years or so that don't have abatements should have to pay full value while the rest piss and moan they can't afford it.


Just to clarify, it has nothing to do with when you bought at all, just where and what. Sales DO NOT change the assessment, but condo-ing creates a "new property" that gets a new assessment. Pre-88 properties that have not been majorly renovated or condo converted have not had their assessments changed in 27 years. If it's Downtown, then it's probably under taxed, if it's in another ward, it's likely overtaxed.

So a new property or conversion with no abatement should be paying around 2.4% of value, $2m Downtown brownstones are often paying 1%, and older houses in Greenville can be paying 3-4%.

Posted on: Yesterday 8:30
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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dtjcview wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
...
This conversation took place several years ago probably around 2012.


Might need this too...
Resized Image


And perhaps some english lessons, since she has used a very malleable term "most" in a situation where it can have very many meanings. "Most" per property? Per dollar of market value? As a class of property paying more gross tax than any other?

Posted on: 3/27 17:29
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Yvonne wrote:
...
This conversation took place several years ago probably around 2012.


Might need this too...
Resized Image

Posted on: 3/27 16:45
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Yvonne wrote:
Basically, the condos are the properties that are paying the most taxes to government.


Untrue. Recent condos should be paying very close to the "official" 2014 effective tax rate of 2.291%. This is lower than many properties in the other wards who are paying north of 3%. But I will concede that due to high value, apparently ~$700k, they're individually paying more in dollars than many homes. But I doubt they cumulatively outpay the many thousands of homes in wards ABCD&F.


I spoke to the tax assessor, he said I was right. This conversation took place several years ago probably around 2012.

Posted on: 3/27 14:52
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I'd love Terrence or some journalist to ask Trulia or Zillow to do a rough calc on a reval impact in JC and publish the results.

Take their market valuations on every house, multiply by average tax rate to give an implied post-reval tax, and subtract the tax paid in 2014. The differences could be normalized by ensure pre and post reval tax totals remain the same - multiply differences by total pre divided by total post.

If we get the big discrepancies published - we may get more push for action.

Posted on: 3/27 12:50
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Yvonne wrote:
Basically, the condos are the properties that are paying the most taxes to government.


Untrue. Recent condos should be paying very close to the "official" 2014 effective tax rate of 2.291%. This is lower than many properties in the other wards who are paying north of 3%. But I will concede that due to high value, apparently ~$700k, they're individually paying more in dollars than many homes. But I doubt they cumulatively outpay the many thousands of homes in wards ABCD&F.

Posted on: 3/27 11:39
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109 Grand St. is now a 3 unit condo. The total taxes are $48,000. Basically, the condos are the properties that are paying the most taxes to government. A reval will help most condos.

Posted on: 3/27 10:53
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Given the long time it's been, a revaluation would definitely cause some hardship to several downtown property owners, particularly those who are real-estate rich but cash poor. Still, the longer you put it off, the more problematic it is. Unless the mayor hopes that it can be delayed so long that a) some of the abated properties become part of the ratable base, and b) some other areas of the city appreciate in value so as to even out the valuations. I just don't see reval being held off that long.

Brewster, I do agree with you that the purpose of revaluation is fairness within the ratable base. However I do think the glut of abated properties downtown is problematic. The higher value of downtown properties is a result of the overall development boom. So the abated properties have at least some effect on the higher valuation of older properties downtown. If all of these properties were part of the ratable base, then at least the increased value of downtown could be spread amongst everyone. As it stands, many of the properties that have led to increased value downtown are exempt from the increase for the length of their abatement.


All true, but to be blunt, so what? Are people complaining their values went up? The fact is some ratable JC property owners are paying 3x the tax rate of others, a situation the reval is designed to remediate. When you add in that this disparity largely breaks along class lines, with the wealthy area paying a fraction of the working class area, it gets downright ugly. Why it's allowed to be a political football is the real mystery, instead of the law mandating it taking place every decade like clockwork the way the Census does.

Posted on: 3/27 10:46
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Given the long time it's been, a revaluation would definitely cause some hardship to several downtown property owners, particularly those who are real-estate rich but cash poor. Still, the longer you put it off, the more problematic it is. Unless the mayor hopes that it can be delayed so long that a) some of the abated properties become part of the ratable base, and b) some other areas of the city appreciate in value so as to even out the valuations. I just don't see reval being held off that long.

Brewster, I do agree with you that the purpose of revaluation is fairness within the ratable base. However I do think the glut of abated properties downtown is problematic. The higher value of downtown properties is a result of the overall development boom. So the abated properties have at least some effect on the higher valuation of older properties downtown. If all of these properties were part of the ratable base, then at least the increased value of downtown could be spread amongst everyone. As it stands, many of the properties that have led to increased value downtown are exempt from the increase for the length of their abatement.

Posted on: 3/27 10:02
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performing the tax reval and making property taxes more equitable would do more to bring people and investment to depressed areas of the city than any redevelopment plan or tax incentives/abatements. It would be "organic" and not be directed by government subsidies, successful or not.

its would seem to me this is how we can build/rebuild neighborhoods and communities.

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brewster wrote:
Out of curiosity, i just ran a mortgage calculator on how much more an overtaxed property might sell for if it's taxes dropped. Let's say our taxes on a $300k house paying $9k in tax (very common) dropped to $6k. Assuming the buyer has a certain fixed budget for mortgage and taxes together, that $3k saved frees an additional $250/month for mortgage. That would, with a 4% 30 year loan, create additional home value of $52,400. In other words, that unfair overtaxing is potentially robbing homeowners citywide of 1/7 the value of their properties. This calculation of course begs the question of the buyer needing a bigger down payment, but you get the idea.

The reverse of this calculation is what terrifies Downtown owners of older properties, and why Yvonne sold her Brownstone on Van Vorst Park that was taxed at 1% to walk away with as much profit as possible.

Posted on: 3/27 9:19
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mwa7368 wrote:
I don't see how it's fair that people who moved to JC in the last 10 years or so that don't have abatements should have to pay full value while the rest piss and moan they can't afford it.


Just to clarify, it has nothing to do with when you bought at all, just where and what. Sales DO NOT change the assessment, but condo-ing creates a "new property" that gets a new assessment. Pre-88 properties that have not been majorly renovated or condo converted have not had their assessments changed in 27 years. If it's Downtown, then it's probably under taxed, if it's in another ward, it's likely overtaxed.

So a new property or conversion with no abatement should be paying around 2.4% of value, $2m Downtown brownstones are often paying 1%, and older houses in Greenville can be paying 3-4%.

Posted on: 3/26 22:30
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Still so pissed that Fulop stopped this. Complete BS! If People can't afford to pay the fair value tax on their homes then they need to figure out a different solution for their housing. I don't see how it's fair that people who moved to JC in the last 10 years or so that don't have abatements should have to pay full value while the rest piss and moan they can't afford it. Suck it up it's f#$%ing America and you pull your share no freebies at the expense of others!

Posted on: 3/26 22:09
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Monroe wrote:
A reval will result in some owners taxes going up, others going down, and some staying the same. The amount received in tax revenue will be the same. That's the way it works, no?


Correct.

Posted on: 3/26 21:30
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A reval will result in some owners taxes going up, others going down, and some staying the same. The amount received in tax revenue will be the same. That's the way it works, no?

Posted on: 3/26 21:28
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Yvonne wrote:
You will never achieve fairness if a third of the ratables are outside the ratable base.


And you will never achieve respect if you can't understand something as simple as "The reval is about fairness WITHIN the ratables". Insisting on discussing what's outside the ratables is changing the subject, which seems to be your goal. As far as I can tell, most people don't understand the reval issue precisely BECAUSE of people like you who have DELIBERATELY muddied the waters for years, making it seem more complex than it is.


+1

The biggest and most equitable impact on JC resident's property tax payments - would be to conduct the reval.

Yvonne's blustering on abatements is mostly political rhetoric from the same idiot that opposed the City refinancing it's bonds at a lower interest rate.

Posted on: 3/26 21:04
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Yvonne wrote:
You will never achieve fairness if a third of the ratables are outside the ratable base.


And you will never achieve respect if you can't understand something as simple as "The reval is about fairness WITHIN the ratables". Insisting on discussing what's outside the ratables is changing the subject, which seems to be your goal. As far as I can tell, most people don't understand the reval issue precisely BECAUSE of people like you who have DELIBERATELY muddied the waters for years, making it seem more complex than it is.

Posted on: 3/26 20:25
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is the problem, we are asking seniors to use reverse mortgage to pay their taxes while the present administration is giving out 30 tax abatements to developers in prime locations. This city is playing the game of saying who have wealth and who should struggle to pay taxes.


Yvonne, abatements have absolutely nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with the reval. The reval is about fairness WITHIN the ratables. PERIOD!! Whatever merits the abatements do or don't have, and the potential to increase the ratable base by reducing them, it does not change the RELATIVE TAXES of those WITHIN the ratable base. That's what a reval is for. We would need it even if we eliminated all current and future abatements tomorrow.

DanL: among the many differences between you and Yvonne, you have not made a career of accusing other people of dodging taxes while paying a fraction the rate that many others in the city were. Her standard response to this is: "I paid the taxes I was billed". Which ,of course, is as irrelevant as most of her comments.


You will never achieve fairness if a third of the ratables are outside the ratable base.

Posted on: 3/26 18:34
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is the problem, we are asking seniors to use reverse mortgage to pay their taxes while the present administration is giving out 30 tax abatements to developers in prime locations. This city is playing the game of saying who have wealth and who should struggle to pay taxes.


Yvonne, abatements have absolutely nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with the reval. The reval is about fairness WITHIN the ratables. PERIOD!! Whatever merits the abatements do or don't have, and the potential to increase the ratable base by reducing them, it does not change the RELATIVE TAXES of those WITHIN the ratable base. That's what a reval is for. We would need it even if we eliminated all current and future abatements tomorrow.

DanL: among the many differences between you and Yvonne, you have not made a career of accusing other people of dodging taxes while paying a fraction the rate that many others in the city were. Her standard response to this is: "I paid the taxes I was billed". Which ,of course, is as irrelevant as most of her comments.

Posted on: 3/26 18:24
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Then I guess the Hudson County Board of Taxation must be flawed too, because they strike the budget based on the city's ratable base. I suggest you watch last year's caucus meeting when Fulop told the council that there would be a tax cut based on expired tax abatements. In simple English, when an abatement expires it becomes a ratable.


Your taxes went down?

Posted on: 3/26 18:14
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Then I guess the Hudson County Board of Taxation must be flawed too, because they strike the budget based on the city's ratable base. I suggest you watch last year's caucus meeting when Fulop told the council that there would be a tax cut based on expired tax abatements. In simple English, when an abatement expires it becomes a ratable.

Posted on: 3/26 17:49
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Yvonne - your argument is flawed in so many ways, I don't know where to start except with this....

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Posted on: 3/26 17:45
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is the problem, we are asking seniors to use reverse mortgage to pay their taxes while the present administration is giving out 30 tax abatements to developers in prime locations. This city is playing the game of saying who have wealth and who should struggle to pay taxes.


In my book, it's not a problem if the senior is sitting on windfall equity profit. And I'm not convinced that taking away abatements will reduce taxes for anyone - the economics of it are not a zero-sum game.


I have said this in the past, but it is worth repeating. Tax abatements are not ratables. They are invisible to the county when they strike the budget. Close to $6 billion is the figure the county use when it strikes the budget. Another $2.8 or $2.9 billion is taxed abated. It is not added to the ratable formula and it is the reason our taxes are high. In 1988, the ratable base change form $800 million to around $6.3 or $6.7 billion. I don't remember the exact figure, sorry for that. The tax rate in 1988 was $32.52, it is now close to $75.00. Those abatements will not lower the rate rate because they are not included in the ratio. If the reval was to happen, the city will probably be worth between $18 to $20 billion and the tax rate will probably be in the $20.00 range. Since I was around when development started, I don't buy the argument that developers needed abatements. The city approached the developers about abatements because they city made promises to some groups, at that point the developer asked for abatements.

Posted on: 3/26 17:06
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is the problem, we are asking seniors to use reverse mortgage to pay their taxes while the present administration is giving out 30 tax abatements to developers in prime locations. This city is playing the game of saying who have wealth and who should struggle to pay taxes.


In my book, it's not a problem if the senior is sitting on windfall equity profit. And I'm not convinced that taking away abatements will reduce taxes for anyone - the economics of it are not a zero-sum game.

Posted on: 3/26 16:50
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Here is the problem, we are asking seniors to use reverse mortgage to pay their taxes while the present administration is giving out 30 tax abatements to developers in prime locations. This city is playing the game of saying who have wealth and who should struggle to pay taxes.

Posted on: 3/26 16:41
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