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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just for the record, JC has spend $128,000 on legal fees in court to fight the reval. I am sure that figure will increase.

Posted on: 8/3 15:01
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I guess, I would like to believe that the administration would have shown some courage, done the right thing by the city and gone thru with the reval .... getting our house in order.

they could have blamed the reval on the prior administration (like they did everything else, sometimes rightly, sometimes not.) pulled together some strong initiatives, managed the city well and get re-elected in 2017.

Instead everything is for sale, nothing is thought thru, instead of righting the ship, its all being spent.

Not much has changed here, has it?




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Yvonne wrote:
I asked the county the county tax assessor the same thing. He said JC officials asked the hudson county board of taxation not to interfere. The city plans on going to court.


The city never planned on going to court. That was a one-day headline that bought time. Fulop is terrified of the reval and views it as political suicide. The comment about the Healy poison pill is apt - I think Jerry knew deep down his days were numbered and Fulop had gotten so deeply under his skin that it was his (Jerry's) way of paying him back, knowing Fulop would tuck tail and run before ever going through with it. I'm sure if more attention is given to this issue, city hall will come up with a new "strategy", but I'll also bet anyone willing that there will be no reval (other than court or state-mandated) prior to November 2017.

Posted on: 8/3 11:54
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Yvonne wrote:
I asked the county the county tax assessor the same thing. He said JC officials asked the hudson county board of taxation not to interfere. The city plans on going to court.


The city never planned on going to court. That was a one-day headline that bought time. Fulop is terrified of the reval and views it as political suicide. The comment about the Healy poison pill is apt - I think Jerry knew deep down his days were numbered and Fulop had gotten so deeply under his skin that it was his (Jerry's) way of paying him back, knowing Fulop would tuck tail and run before ever going through with it. I'm sure if more attention is given to this issue, city hall will come up with a new "strategy", but I'll also bet anyone willing that there will be no reval (other than court or state-mandated) prior to November 2017.

Posted on: 8/2 16:58
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Fulop has imposed new fines for doing business in JC. The city collects a fee for having a vacant lot, even though the property owners are still paying taxes on the vacant lot, Fulop increased various department fees and the city tried to put an extra fee on knocking down buildings but that did go through.

Posted on: 8/2 15:01
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Well, I guess that in the end, Fulop turned out to be just your average politician: he made tons of promises during his campaign, kept some of them, but has mostly kowtowed to his power base and the constituency that elected him mayor.

Suspending the reval is unconscionable given the disparity of tax burdens in the city, but doing so is a "gift" to his Ward E power base. The abatements downtown are OBVIOUSLY no longer needed, and it was promised that long term abatements were going to target areas in need of development and which could use the added incentives (Lafayette, JSQ, Greenville, etc.) and yet we continue to hear about sweetheart deals in DTJC. The Buildings Department is still a hindrance to many, particularly for new business ventures. Although, my understanding is that only the state can clean house there, so maybe Fulop gets a pass on that one.

Posted on: 8/2 11:51
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I have to agree that giving 20+ year abatements to downtown developers is leaving a bad taste in my mouth about Fulop. There's more than enough inertia in that real estate market to sustain development without corporate welfare. And I'm frankly surprised when people defend this level of nepotism.

Posted on: 8/2 11:03
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And I am telling you Newport, Dixon Mills, Society Hills and even Colgate Redevelopment never asked for tax abatements. It was the mayors doing deals in the 1980s that offered tax abatements.

Posted on: 8/1 19:07
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Yvonne, if Jersey City would see the same pace of development without offering abatements, I would agree with you. However, I honestly and truly believe that a lot of these developments would not have been built had it not been for the abatements. So I reject the statement that taxes would be lower without the abatements. Does anyone have independent unbiased studies on the topic that they can share?

I still hope the reveal goes through so Ward E homeowners with ridiculously low assessments begin paying their fair share in taxes.

Posted on: 8/1 17:29
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Yvonne wrote:
jtjcview, you do not pay the taxes for anyone except yourself. Anyone has the right to complain about increased spending especially when JC gives a sweetheart deal for 30 years to a developer. These deals bring in school children regardless of the administration says.


But the reval is a zero-sum game. Is it not?

There will be winners (most of the residents of the city, excluding property owners in Ward E) and losers (most of the property owners in Ward E). Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm in the Heights and if my property taxes go down then why would I be mad at 30 year tax abatement given to a developer, risking their capital to revitalize Journal Square, an area of the city that desperately needs the investment dollars!!



The reason you should be mad by someone receiving a 30 year tax abatement, it makes your tax rate higher. Since it is a contract, and not a ratable, the hudson county tax assessor does not add that 30 year abated property to the final list to determine the tax rate. As I said earlier, Fulop is correcct in his email that the ratable base increase. But, it is nothing he personally did to make the ratable base increase. Some abatements expired and the board of taxation added those expired abatements to the ratable base which stabilize the tax base. And if you are a homeowner, a 30 year tax abatement is worth more than a similar home without a 30 year tax abatment. It is not the job of government to make one property more valuable than another property.

Posted on: 8/1 9:35
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Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
jtjcview, you do not pay the taxes for anyone except yourself. Anyone has the right to complain about increased spending especially when JC gives a sweetheart deal for 30 years to a developer. These deals bring in school children regardless of the administration says.


But the reval is a zero-sum game. Is it not?

There will be winners (most of the residents of the city, excluding property owners in Ward E) and losers (most of the property owners in Ward E). Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm in the Heights and if my property taxes go down then why would I be mad at 30 year tax abatement given to a developer, risking their capital to revitalize Journal Square, an area of the city that desperately needs the investment dollars!!



I don't think anyone (reasonable) gets upset at JSQ abatements. The issue is when abatements are issued in booming parts of downtown, such as the proposed 20 or 30 year abatement to the Shoprite developer.


Yvonne gets upset... Oh, missed the reasonable part. Got ya.

I too am not a fan of tax abatements downtown, especially for 20+ years, and I could of swore candidate Steve Fulop promised he would end the practice if elected Mayor. I'm disappointed as much as you that it's still occurring, and is an apparent violation of a campaign promise. I wish there was a change in state law to better regulate the abatement process, because as of right now, the city is operating within its legal authority to grant 30-year abatement in the booming part of town. The State of New Jersey needs to better regulate the use of abatements by municipalities, and make take the political element out of it too.

Posted on: 7/31 23:37
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Yvonne wrote:
jtjcview, you do not pay the taxes for anyone except yourself. Anyone has the right to complain about increased spending especially when JC gives a sweetheart deal for 30 years to a developer. These deals bring in school children regardless of the administration says.


But the reval is a zero-sum game. Is it not?

There will be winners (most of the residents of the city, excluding property owners in Ward E) and losers (most of the property owners in Ward E). Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm in the Heights and if my property taxes go down then why would I be mad at 30 year tax abatement given to a developer, risking their capital to revitalize Journal Square, an area of the city that desperately needs the investment dollars!!



I don't think anyone (reasonable) gets upset at JSQ abatements. The issue is when abatements are issued in booming parts of downtown, such as the proposed 20 or 30 year abatement to the Shoprite developer.

Posted on: 7/31 23:28
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Yvonne wrote:
jtjcview, you do not pay the taxes for anyone except yourself. Anyone has the right to complain about increased spending especially when JC gives a sweetheart deal for 30 years to a developer. These deals bring in school children regardless of the administration says.


But the reval is a zero-sum game. Is it not?

There will be winners (most of the residents of the city, excluding property owners in Ward E) and losers (most of the property owners in Ward E). Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm in the Heights and if my property taxes go down then why would I be mad at 30 year tax abatement given to a developer, risking their capital to revitalize Journal Square, an area of the city that desperately needs the investment dollars!!


Posted on: 7/31 23:21
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jtjcview, you do not pay the taxes for anyone except yourself. Anyone has the right to complain about increased spending especially when JC gives a sweetheart deal for 30 years to a developer. These deals bring in school children regardless of the administration says.

Posted on: 7/31 19:37
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Yvonne wrote:
Eventually, the state will order a reval, now it will be Fulop's problem. Most people would have allow the reval to go through and blame it on the previous administration but again, that one third that goes up will be furious with 30 years tax abatements.


And any of that 1/3 that complained would be idiots. Even if we collected fully on abated properties, no JC homeowner would see a single cent in reduced taxes - the money would end up back in county or state - and investment in JC would be killed. Genius from an ex-kindergarden teacher who got butthurt by the last reval.

Posted on: 7/31 18:25
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Eventually, the state will order a reval, now it will be Fulop's problem. Most people would have allow the reval to go through and blame it on the previous administration but again, that one third that goes up will be furious with 30 years tax abatements.

Posted on: 7/31 18:18
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If your taxes goes up based on a reval and then you see the mayor/city council protect a developer with a tax abatement, you will see citizens flood city hall. The mayor does not want this, after all, he wants a positive image for Trenton. During a reval, one third will go up, one third will go down and one third will remain the same. It is the one third that goes up will give him a problem.


The reval timing was a parting gift from Healy. A poison pill or unexploded grenade if you like. Not surprised Fulop doesn't want to touch it yet.

Posted on: 7/31 18:15
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If your taxes goes up based on a reval and then you see the mayor/city council protect a developer with a tax abatement, you will see citizens flood city hall. The mayor does not want this, after all, he wants a positive image for Trenton. During a reval, one third will go up, one third will go down and one third will remain the same. It is the one third that goes up will give him a problem.

Posted on: 7/31 18:09
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I don't understand. How would a reval affect the amount of flak Fulop receives when he gives out 30 year tax abatements? I was following with you all the way until your last sentence. He seems to be getting plenty of flak already for 30 year tax abatements, especially downtown. I think the the flak on abatement a would have been the same regardless of reval. And I hope state laws are changed to limit abatements to 15 years or less.

Posted on: 7/31 15:33
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I asked the county the county tax assessor the same thing. He said JC officials asked the hudson county board of taxation not to interfere. The city plans on going to court. The basis for the lawsuit, the reval company hired former JC Tax Assessor and Business Administor O'Reilly, O'Reilly is certified in both areas. Once O'Reilly realized he was the issue, he left that reval company. The tax commissioners are: Robert Doria, Vincent Cuseglio, Nicholas Fargo, James D'Andrea, Angelo Valente, and Jodi Drennan. However, this is the real reason, Fulop would have gotten flak for giving out 30 years tax abatements so he pushed the reval off.

Posted on: 7/31 14:55
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Will it ever happen?

Right now residents in new properties that don't have a tax abatement are subsidizing property owners in Ward E, who have seen their properties greatly since the last reval was done over 25 years ago.

Why doesn't the other members of the council push for a reval, which would result in a decrease in taxes for their residents?

One was planned, but it was killed -- or at least definitely delayed. What's the story?

Posted on: 7/31 13:38
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blanquiita wrote:
Stupid question: What was the point of people going door-to-door if they don't have to enter the premises?

I had someone from the city come to my apt. I let the guy in so he could see I had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt. One of my neighbors told the surveyor he had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt when I know for a fact he has a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt. Obviously the city has records as its been a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt for almost 30 years.

I am worried about the neighbor who gutted his apt and rebuilt it without permits. He wouldn't let the surveyor in. While it is true he has a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt, he made improvements to make his apt worth several thousands of dollars more than mine, yet we pay the same taxes.

How is the city going to compensate for that? Let me guess, they won't.



I askied the question to the reval person who came to my door. He told me their job was to make sure that your place matched what the assessors office showed - 1br, 1ba, etc. But you should let them see the premises. the person who had come to my home assumed my 2nd floor was the same as my first. It's not.

Posted on: 4/8 7:38
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The city will spend another $75,000 to a Bernardsville's law firm in the suit against Realty Appraisal. Fulop has hired more lawyers but only Shain, Schaffer and Raffanello, Esqs. are the experts to represent the city according to the mayor. This brings the total to $175,000. I actually wonder if we will have to pay Realty Appraisal's law fees if we lose the case.

Posted on: 4/7 21:07
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Stupid question: What was the point of people going door-to-door if they don't have to enter the premises?

I had someone from the city come to my apt. I let the guy in so he could see I had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt. One of my neighbors told the surveyor he had a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt when I know for a fact he has a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt. Obviously the city has records as its been a 2-bedroom, 2-bath apt for almost 30 years.

I am worried about the neighbor who gutted his apt and rebuilt it without permits. He wouldn't let the surveyor in. While it is true he has a 1-bedroom, 1-bath apt, he made improvements to make his apt worth several thousands of dollars more than mine, yet we pay the same taxes.

How is the city going to compensate for that? Let me guess, they won't.

Posted on: 3/29 1:25
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Again, Brewster, I did not order the reval nor did I stop the reval. Bring your questions to the man who sits in the chair at 280 Grove St.

Posted on: 3/28 21:05
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Yvonne wrote:
Don't forget the downtown property 109 Grand St. that is now a 3 unit condo, Brewster and the total taxes are $48,000.


So...f@#king...what. How can you be so insistent and not understand taxes at all? Without citing any other numbers the taxes prove nothing whatsoever. There's no sales or tax info on that property online. As someone who has repeatedly appealed her taxes, you SHOULD know they're only overtaxed if the 3 units are worth greater than 15% less than the $2.1m value their taxes indicate.

No, you did not stop the reval but you did your best to create a public hostility to it. You have been loudly and studiously sowing confusion about JC taxes and the reval for many years. Every time the issue of the reval and tax fairness has come up you have moaned about the poor equity rich people who might be asked to pay their fair taxes, and railed against owners of abated properties who in reality, a state unknown to you, were often paying taxes higher than you were Downtown.

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We own a row house in the VVP area and we then purchased our condo in Gulls Cove. The two bedroom “abated” Gulls Cove pays several thousand more in taxes than the two FAMILY brownstone.



Posted on: 3/28 20:39
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mwa7368 wrote:
If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!


Everything is relative, perhaps you're just comparing to undertaxed properties. what is your real tax rate, tax/market value? The metric the County uses is the "Ratio", 100 x assessment /market value. I think it's supposed to be 32.4 for 2014. they allow a 15% margin of error before declaring it high enough to appeal.

I have a property in the Heights that's paying 3.48% of it's purchase price in 2012, with a ratio of 46.7. That's 3 1/2 times the tax rate that Yvonne was paying, and many Downtown pre-88 properties are paying. Can you top that?

Cmon, non-Downtowners, tell us your numbers! Or tell us anybodys you want, you can look it up here:http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906


I was going to look up the councilor's property tax bills and post them - but the first name I checked is grossly overpaying tax - and I don't particularly care to let the individual know.

Posted on: 3/28 19:06
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Don't forget the downtown property 109 Grand St. that is now a 3 unit condo, Brewster and the total taxes are $48,000. By the way, Brewster, if you are upset that the reval did not happen then speak to the mayor in city hall, I did not stop the reval.

Posted on: 3/28 16:37
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mwa7368 wrote:
If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!


Everything is relative, perhaps you're just comparing to undertaxed properties. what is your real tax rate, tax/market value? The metric the County uses is the "Ratio", 100 x assessment /market value. I think it's supposed to be 32.4 for 2014. they allow a 15% margin of error before declaring it high enough to appeal.

I have a property in the Heights that's paying 3.48% of it's purchase price in 2012, with a ratio of 46.7. That's 3 1/2 times the tax rate that Yvonne was paying, and many Downtown pre-88 properties are paying. Can you top that?

Cmon, non-Downtowners, tell us your numbers! Or tell us anybodys you want, you can look it up here:http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906

Posted on: 3/28 16:15
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If its new downtown then it's overtaxed, I'm overtaxed!

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Quote:

mwa7368 wrote:
I don't see how it's fair that people who moved to JC in the last 10 years or so that don't have abatements should have to pay full value while the rest piss and moan they can't afford it.


Just to clarify, it has nothing to do with when you bought at all, just where and what. Sales DO NOT change the assessment, but condo-ing creates a "new property" that gets a new assessment. Pre-88 properties that have not been majorly renovated or condo converted have not had their assessments changed in 27 years. If it's Downtown, then it's probably under taxed, if it's in another ward, it's likely overtaxed.

So a new property or conversion with no abatement should be paying around 2.4% of value, $2m Downtown brownstones are often paying 1%, and older houses in Greenville can be paying 3-4%.

Posted on: 3/28 8:30
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Yvonne wrote:
...
This conversation took place several years ago probably around 2012.


Might need this too...
Resized Image


And perhaps some english lessons, since she has used a very malleable term "most" in a situation where it can have very many meanings. "Most" per property? Per dollar of market value? As a class of property paying more gross tax than any other?

Posted on: 3/27 17:29
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