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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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terrencemcd wrote:
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brewster wrote:
...you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.


looks like you can!


That's awesome. I wonder why this is so little known? Expensive to do? Too bad Yvonne has already sold her way under assessed property, she would have been a prime target!


Posted on: 2016/12/1 23:03
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brewster wrote:
...you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.


looks like you can!

Tax appeal against tax assessor's property can proceed


Wolosky's case against Holenstein is believed to be the first of its kind in Sussex County, and one of the first statewide, involving a tax appeal by a private citizen against a government official.

He filed the case in April under a little-known statute that allows taxpayers not only to contest their own property tax assessments but also to appeal the assessment on anyone else's property within the same county.

N.J.S.A. 54:3-21(a)(1) states that a taxpayer feeling "aggrieved" by his or her own assessment or "discriminated against" by the assessment on someone else's property in the same county may file an appeal against that person's assessment.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 22:26
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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If you do end up with a high assessment after a market correction, you can always appeal. The reverse is not true, you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.

5 year revals might be impractical, but 10 year combined with a rolling reval, where it gets reset on sale, would definitely be an improvement on the shitshow we have. At least buyers would know for sure what their taxes would be.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 17:33
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Sutherland wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.


It should be current fair market value. So it's possible a brownstone could be assessed at $1.5 million with the market crashing 2018, cutting the value in half. All the more reason to do revals at least every 5 years.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 16:54
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Sutherland wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.


It should be current fair market value. So it's possible a brownstone could be assessed at $1.5 million with the market crashing in 2018. All the more reason to do revals at least every 5 years.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 16:54
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It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 16:13
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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JCGuys wrote:
This point cannot be stressed enough! That's not a post abatement calculator. That's a calculator for taking your 1988 assessed value to approximate taxes today by using the effective tax rate. .


Actually, no, it's even less useful than that. The calculator tells you what your taxes would have been in 1988 using today's effective rate.

You would need to enter your assessed value x the current adjustment (1/23.66 x 100 or 4.22, according to the doc linked) to even get out your current tax bill. But that doesn't seem to work either. It just shows how crazy this stuff is, new rates and ratios come out every year.

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2016/Hudson.pdf

Posted on: 2016/12/1 14:25
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Dolomiti wrote:
Prepare to be shocked and stunned.


That calculator is incorrect except for the moment after a reval. It's multiplying assessment by effective tax rate, rather than actual tax rate. So, yes, if you input your expected appraisal, you'll get out a tax based on current tax rate. But there's no saying the tax rate will stay exactly the same, that would require the adjustment ratio to have been aperfectly accurate guess as to the rise in value of JC. They will calculate a new one to yield the same tax from the new ratable base, the aggregate value of taxable JC property.


This point cannot be stressed enough! That's not a post abatement calculator. That's a calculator for taking your 1988 assessed value to approximate taxes today by using the effective tax rate. The data for this calculator is from the NJ Division of Taxes. In fact, there is a disclaimer on their website warning not to rely on the effective tax rate for determining property taxes; a disclaimer against exactly what this calculator does.

From http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/taxrate.shtml

Quote:
The Effective Tax Rate is a statistical study that enables the comparison of one district to another district (based on the assumption that all districts are at 100% valuation). This rate is NOT to be used to compute the tax bill.


There has been so much disinformation on the reval. Or maybe no one knows what's going to happen. I'd like to suggest that a group that has been conveniently overlooked in this discussion is the large land owners and speculators.

There are lands that were assessed for $100,000 back in 1988, and pay $2,000 in annual taxes, that have recently been sold for tens of millions. It's these guys that are going to take the biggest hit. Also, thanks to some valuable research from StateAidGuy, land is ineligible to receive a tax abatement. The abatement law only apply for the improvement to the lands (ie the building).

Jersey City's ratabale base is going to soar and no one really knows what the tax burden will be because the change will be so dramatic. The reval is a zero-sum game. My theory is the the value of developable land will be very high, leading to a lower tax rate than most anticipate.

The 99 Hudson development, which is unabated, is going to add $750,000,000 or more in land and improvements to the ratable base. Jersey City's current assessed, unabated value is $5.8 billion. So we're talking a 12.9% increase to the city's entire ratabale base by a single development. That is both incredible and unprecedented for a big city.

We really need a mandated reval every 5 years to avoid getting in such a inevitable situation again. I wish the County had responsibility to take the local politics out of it.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 13:47
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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tictaktoe wrote:
Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?




Yes, if unabated. Even with abatements, the abatement is only for the improvement, not the land. So lots of unknowns.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 13:16
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tictaktoe wrote:
Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?




This is a coming misconception, perpetuated by some people. Some (most?) people in abated buildings in DTJC are paying a total tax levy that is higher than what most brownstone owners pay. While the abatement taxes are "reduced", that is a reduction of the "standard tax rate" (~2.2%) and so they often end up paying rates varying from 1% all the way to just under the full rate. Compare that with most brownstones or properties in DTJC that now pay effective rates of 1%, or lower. So, while abated properties supposedly are getting a free ride, that is far from the truth.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 12:37
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Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?



Posted on: 2016/12/1 12:17
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Dolomiti wrote:
Prepare to be shocked and stunned.


That calculator is incorrect except for the moment after a reval. It's multiplying assessment by effective tax rate, rather than actual tax rate. So, yes, if you input your expected appraisal, you'll get out a tax based on current tax rate. But there's no saying the tax rate will stay exactly the same, that would require the adjustment ratio to have been aperfectly accurate guess as to the rise in value of JC. They will calculate a new one to yield the same tax from the new ratable base, the aggregate value of taxable JC property.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 12:14
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Dolomiti wrote:
FWIW, I've used the following site to calculate my likely post-reval property tax.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-jersey-property-tax-calculator

Prepare to be shocked and stunned.


Came out to what I thought it would be. ~2.23%. If thats what it will cost that is okay for me.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 10:33
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FWIW, I've used the following site to calculate my likely post-reval property tax.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-jersey-property-tax-calculator

Prepare to be shocked and stunned.

Posted on: 2016/12/1 10:28
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Re: Any update on inspections for current round of re-evaluations?
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AlexC wrote:
Dan, you know me, I'm happy to pay my fair share of taxes, but if you are looking for tax inequality, it's going to be tough to get my sympathy.

In my block, property values has risen 500% in the last 20 years - do you expect us to pay 5x in property taxes? What is the formula?

I have neighbors who live on fixed income, they can't afford even a 10 or 20% rise in property taxes. They can sell, but this is their home - I can sell too, and become a renter and not have to worry about taxes.

Am I missing something?


Do a search in the forums and you will find many, many explanations. Essentially, it all boils down to this: some properties (more abundantly in DTJC) have been paying effective rates of 1%, while other areas in JC are currently paying effective rates of 4 to 6 percent. That's the inequality. Ideally, every property will end up paying the same effective rate after the revaluation is completed. So, a 1MM brownstone will pay around 22K, while a 200K property will pay around 4.4K. Instead, you currently have brownstones valued at over 1 MM paying taxes of around 10K, while some depressed areas are chock full of homes paying 4 or 5 thousand on valuations of 100K. For real life examples, check listings in Zillow. Lots of pricey homes are being put on the market (surely a lot of that is savvy, well-informed homeowners trying to get ahead of the reval) and I am sure we will see many more in 2017.

Posted on: 2016/11/30 23:34
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Sorry, the link doesn't work for me, can you send the URL?


I meant the thread you're reading. I guess I should just have it on my desktop and keep posting the same explanation again and again since no one wants to read 35 pages of posts.

Found it. This is from a couple of years ago, the ideal ratio number has gone down since to ~28 I recall.

Here's a quick primer on JC property tax. In theory all JC property tax should be based on the actual property value equaling assessed value times a "ratio" the city updates according to it best guess of property appreciation, currently about 3.3. The actual tax rate of 7.184 is applied to the assessment, that rate being the effective tax rate (~2.2%) times the adjustment ratio (http://www.hudsoncountytax.com/html/RatesRatios.aspx). But in the 25 years since the last reval (when the assessments wre set to market value and the Ratio was reset to 0), many properties values have drifted away from this theoretical value. One thing I've discovered perusing the official tax records, (http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... istrict=0906&ms_user=monm) is there's a data field for each property called "Ratio", which is not always occupied (I have not determined why). This field might as well be called the "tax fairness quotient". This Ratio = (assessment/sale price) x 100. If it's over 33, you're paying too much, if it's under 33, you're paying too little. In a tax appeal, up to 15% variance from the 33 Ratio is considered normal, but in a reval, everyone get set at the new Ratio using their appraisal.

While looking at recent sales I stumbled on a really juicy one. A magnificent townhouse on Montgomery sold to a hedge fund last October for $1,800,000; assessment $245,000; tax $17,601. That's a real rate of 0.98% versus the "theoretical" rate of 2.2% (7.184% / 3.272%) with a ratio of 13.61, rather far from the city's ideal 33. Were they paying the 2.2% that city says we all should be, their tax would be $39,600! Clicking at random on Zillow among the recent sales in 07304 it was hard not to find places well over a 40 ratio, 3rd try got one in Bergen-Lafayette with a 51.5! That makes a real tax rate of 3.7% per year. That owner pays $3.77 for every dollar the hedge fund owner on Montgomery does on the value of their respective properties. THIS IS THE STORY HERE!!!!! 6 owners of property worth $300,000 have to overpay as much as this one underpays to make up for this under assessment. There are real people on the other side of the equation paying the taxes owed by the undertaxed properties!

The research to substantiate what I say is easy. Go to Zillow.com, Trulia.com or any other real estate site, search a zip code for recently sold properties, pick one at random. Divide the assessment by the sale price, and multiply by 100. If it's over 33, they're paying too much, under, they're not paying enough. In general, Downtown historic properties are dramatically underpaying, and other wards are overpaying. This is not a intended to be a divisive argument, but why should the family who struggles to afford their little $250,000 house in the Heights or Greenville be paying the taxes of someone who can afford a million dollar Downtown home? If you're a property owner, find your tax card, divide your assessment by your best guess of your property value, and multiply by 100. If you're much over 33, this cancellation is going to cost you money. And if you're only moderately over, between 33 and 38, you don't even qualify for an appeal because of the 15% allowed deviation.

Whatever problems there may be with the reval contract, the answer is to fix it, not to perpetuate this injustice on the people who are often the least sophisticated about these tax issues.

Posted on: 2016/11/30 22:57
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Sorry, the link doesn't work for me, can you send the URL?

Posted on: 2016/11/30 22:53
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AlexC wrote:
Dan, you know me, I'm happy to pay my fair share of taxes, but if you are looking for tax inequality, it's going to be tough to get my sympathy.

In my block, property values has risen 500% in the last 20 years - do you expect us to pay 5x in property taxes? What is the formula?

I have neighbors who live on fixed income, they can't afford even a 10 or 20% rise in property taxes. They can sell, but this is their home - I can sell too, and become a renter and not have to worry about taxes.

Am I missing something?


Yes you're missing something. A basic understanding of the issue of how the tax system works and how the inequality is created. It's explained many times in this thread.

Posted on: 2016/11/30 22:36
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Dan, you know me, I'm happy to pay my fair share of taxes, but if you are looking for tax inequality, it's going to be tough to get my sympathy.

In my block, property values has risen 500% in the last 20 years - do you expect us to pay 5x in property taxes? What is the formula?

I have neighbors who live on fixed income, they can't afford even a 10 or 20% rise in property taxes. They can sell, but this is their home - I can sell too, and become a renter and not have to worry about taxes.

Am I missing something?

Posted on: 2016/11/30 22:24
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and Jersey City further delays the reval (till after the next election) while tax inequity continues.

Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on November 29, 2016 at 5:16 PM, updated November 29, 2016 at 5:24 PM

JERSEY CITY -- Two months after the citywide property revaluation was set to begin in earnest, home inspections have been delayed as city and state officials work to finalize the city's tax maps.

City spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill said she could not estimate when inspectors would start looking at homes. Morrill said after a contract was approved in September for an appraisal company that will conduct the reval, "the state requested amendments to the tax maps."

The state Treasury confirmed the maps are an issue.

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Posted on: 2016/11/30 21:42
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By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on November 29, 2016 at 5:16 PM, updated November 29, 2016 at 5:24 PM

JERSEY CITY -- Two months after the citywide property revaluation was set to begin in earnest, home inspections have been delayed as city and state officials work to finalize the city's tax maps.

City spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill said she could not estimate when inspectors would start looking at homes. Morrill said after a contract was approved in September for an appraisal company that will conduct the reval, "the state requested amendments to the tax maps."

The state Treasury confirmed the maps are an issue.

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Posted on: 11/29 17:48
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I can't wait to see when the first numbers come in...

Posted on: 11/29 14:33
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Any update on inspections for current round of re-evaluations?
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The last I heard was that inspections for the current property tax re-eval were to begin this month and continue for about a year(?). Has anyone seen a plan on timelines for different areas of JC?

Posted on: 11/28 16:36
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I was randomly looking at property sales of vacant land and rezonings downtown and in Journal Square. There are many cases where a vacant property is currently assessed around $100,000 but was recently sold for many millions. Nearby, similarly sized lots with similar assessed value, have been rezoned or in an redevelopment area allowing for substantial development. They may not have been sold, but their true value is also many millions.

Land owners that have been sitting on vacant lands for years, paying next to nothing in taxes, are going to be hit with a mammoth tax bill.

I'm not so sure Ward E homeowners will be hit with the massive tax increase we're all expecting. The ratable base will soar when all the vacant properties primed for development see their assessed value jump from 1000 to 2000 percent.

Am I wrong?

http://njparcels.com/property/0906/9501/18
501 Summit (1.08 acres)
Assessed: $525,000
Sold: $900,000 October 1996
A 1/3 acre property across the street at 500 Summit sold for $26,500,000 in June. 501 Summit has a higher development potential as it's located in the high intensity zone of Journal Square.

http://njparcels.com/property/0906/9204/1
1075 WEST SIDE AVE.
Assessed: $1,365,800
Sold: $10,000,000 February 2015
Rezoned in 2016 for residential development, site next to rumored future Marion PATH stop.

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Yvonne wrote:
It is in the article besides, I spoke to the reporter who wrote the story. O'Donnell receives legal work from JC, he is on the committee to pick the reval and he gave a 100% score to the firm in his building.


Just because the firm is in his building doesn't mean there's a connection. I work in a building with lots of other companies, doesn't mean I'm personally or financially connected to them in any way.


I am sure O'Donnell and this appraisal company saw each other on the common elevator in their building. But let's get to the real issue - Fulop slandered Brian O'Reilly as corrupting the reval process, the reason for the cancellation. In court, city employees under oath said Brian was not part of the process. Unlike O'Donnell, O'Reilly was JC former tax assessor under Bret Schundler, with a certification in the subject. After he left government, he did go to work for the company who won the contract. O'Reilly's background would probably make sure the reval was done fairly, he lived here for many years. He knows JC but he left after Fulop made the accusations. The 1988 reval company hired people outside an urban area and the process was a disaster.

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Yvonne wrote:
It is in the article besides, I spoke to the reporter who wrote the story. O'Donnell receives legal work from JC, he is on the committee to pick the reval and he gave a 100% score to the firm in his building.


Just because the firm is in his building doesn't mean there's a connection. I work in a building with lots of other companies, doesn't mean I'm personally or financially connected to them in any way.

Posted on: 9/16 17:19
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Yvonne wrote:
It is in the article besides, I spoke to the reporter who wrote the story. O'Donnell receives legal work from JC, he is on the committee to pick the reval and he gave a 100% score to the firm in his building.


JJ comment:

Quote:
“Appraisal Systems received 418 points total from the five committee members compared to Tyler Technologies' 124 points.”

Huh? Did you read the committee’s ranking/scoring of the reval companies? Even if O'Donnell also gave Tyler 100 points they wouldn’t be close to Appraisal Systems score.

(as usual one of Billy’s crew trying to stop JC’s progress and I am sure a letter to the JJ editor will follow)

Posted on: 9/16 16:51
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It is in the article besides, I spoke to the reporter who wrote the story. O'Donnell receives legal work from JC, he is on the committee to pick the reval and he gave a 100% score to the firm in his building.

Posted on: 9/16 16:47
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Yvonne wrote:
Fulop smeared Brian O'Reilly's reputation accusing him of rigging the process. During the court proceedings, city workers said Brian O' Reilly was not part of the process. Now there is someone who is part of the process. O'Donnell receives contracts from the city, is on the team to pick the company and then chooses a company from his building. Ironically, we are still spending city money going after the reval company picked under Healy.


Where in the article does it equivocally state that O'Donnell is connected to the Reval company?

I'm not defending the current administration. If there is a connection, there is a connection. But Michael Yun insinuating that there might be a connection is not the same as proof that there is one.

So do you have information the rest of us don't?

Posted on: 9/16 14:51
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user1111 wrote:
Oh look, a Trump supporter wants a delay and not pay their fare share. Typical scum lord.


Typical know it all liberal jumping to a baseless factless assumption.


bwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa pay up!



I'll be fine you on the other hand with all your bragging about Greenville has see a nice jump in property value and tax base.

Posted on: 9/16 11:01
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