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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
Did he realize by waiting until values were at an all time high we will now have to kick more to the state?


This is not accurate. By law, the reval must be revenue neutral. But, the reval being pushed back by 3+ years has some major implications:

- the very people being protected by cancelling the reval (DTJC homeowners) have experienced the most appreciation in the values of their homes, which means they will now shoulder a larger hit when the new tax levies are determined.

- whereas he could have deflected or pinned any negative repercussions from the reval on Healy by allowing the previous one to be completed, he instead thoroughly injected himself into process and now owns this political hot potato.

- because of the run up in DTJC values, the disparity in relative assessment values has worsened, making Fulop's position one that is both politically and morally untenable.

- all the negative press and recent developments will undoubtedly have repercussions for Fulop's much rumored run for the governorship.


Some people may be underestimating the rise in property values in areas beyond downtown. The heights and Journal Square for example are all doing incredibly well. Fulop uses this as one of the significant reasons why the reval should be delayed. In the last 3 years or so the disparity in housing prices in the city has been decreasing at a higher rate than prior years. Fulop haters may not agree, but having a competent mayor has something to do with it.


A 'competent' mayor doesn't end up having the city pay millions of dollars because he delayed the process . . . and is paying interest every day on top.

Posted on: Yesterday 12:55
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SOS wrote:
Some people may be underestimating the rise in property values in areas beyond downtown. The heights and Journal Square for example are all doing incredibly well. Fulop uses this as one of the significant reasons why the reval should be delayed. In the last 3 years or so the disparity in housing prices in the city has been decreasing at a higher rate than prior years. Fulop haters may not agree, but having a competent mayor has something to do with it.



I agree with this. If you look at what properties in the Heights, BL and JSQ are selling for vs the assessed values and taxes the 2.1% post reval rate everyone is quoting makes no sense. I think it will be well below that figure.

Posted on: Yesterday 12:49
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
Did he realize by waiting until values were at an all time high we will now have to kick more to the state?


This is not accurate. By law, the reval must be revenue neutral. But, the reval being pushed back by 3+ years has some major implications:

- the very people being protected by cancelling the reval (DTJC homeowners) have experienced the most appreciation in the values of their homes, which means they will now shoulder a larger hit when the new tax levies are determined.

- whereas he could have deflected or pinned any negative repercussions from the reval on Healy by allowing the previous one to be completed, he instead thoroughly injected himself into process and now owns this political hot potato.

- because of the run up in DTJC values, the disparity in relative assessment values has worsened, making Fulop's position one that is both politically and morally untenable.

- all the negative press and recent developments will undoubtedly have repercussions for Fulop's much rumored run for the governorship.


Some people may be underestimating the rise in property values in areas beyond downtown. The heights and Journal Square for example are all doing incredibly well. Fulop uses this as one of the significant reasons why the reval should be delayed. In the last 3 years or so the disparity in housing prices in the city has been decreasing at a higher rate than prior years. Fulop haters may not agree, but having a competent mayor has something to do with it.

Posted on: Yesterday 12:28
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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thor800 wrote:
If the rateable base is higher (all the new construction), shouldn't this spread the overall burden assuming a similar rate of required revenue for the city ?


Yes, but also keep in mind that most new construction is assessed at (or close to) their real market value. So, new construction will not see much of an increase in their taxes, if any at all. For new construction that is currently paying abated taxes, they will definitely not see an increase either.

Posted on: 5/4 16:52
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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If the rateable base is higher (all the new construction), shouldn't this spread the overall burden assuming a similar rate of required revenue for the city ?


Yes, and this would happen regardless of reval.


Its one of the perks of new construction that should help residents deal with the added congestion. I guess the key is that that amount of revenue required by the city doesn't vastly rise

Posted on: 5/4 13:21
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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thor800 wrote:
If the rateable base is higher (all the new construction), shouldn't this spread the overall burden assuming a similar rate of required revenue for the city ?


Yes, and this would happen regardless of reval.

Posted on: 5/4 13:10
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If the rateable base is higher (all the new construction), shouldn't this spread the overall burden assuming a similar rate of required revenue for the city ?

Posted on: 5/4 13:04
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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135jc wrote:
Did he realize by waiting until values were at an all time high we will now have to kick more to the state?


This is not accurate. By law, the reval must be revenue neutral. But, the reval being pushed back by 3+ years has some major implications:

- the very people being protected by cancelling the reval (DTJC homeowners) have experienced the most appreciation in the values of their homes, which means they will now shoulder a larger hit when the new tax levies are determined.

- whereas he could have deflected or pinned any negative repercussions from the reval on Healy by allowing the previous one to be completed, he instead thoroughly injected himself into process and now owns this political hot potato.

- because of the run up in DTJC values, the disparity in relative assessment values has worsened, making Fulop's position one that is both politically and morally untenable.

- all the negative press and recent developments will undoubtedly have repercussions for Fulop's much rumored run for the governorship.

Posted on: 5/4 11:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I may have missed it but has Fulop explained his decision to end the Reval other then it was unfair?


There were a few explanations.

When he called it off, he told me that it was because the bid process was corrupt. He called the reval a "backdoor tax" by the Healy admin.

He also argued at the time that since the ratio of assessed-to-true value in the city hadn't led to a lack of development, a reval wasn't necessary.

In a letter he sent to the B.A. after his election as mayor, he mentioned the bid process but also said Hurricane Sandy may have had an impact on property values. He said he was canceling the reval until his admin could investigate all of this. The judge overseeing the reval trial that ended last month said there was no evidence any investigation had taken place.

Here's that letter:

https://www.documentcloud.org/document ... letter-halting-reval.html

Fulop has also said he thinks the reval would devastate property values citywide.


Posted on: 5/4 11:01
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135jc wrote:
I may have missed it but has Fulop explained his decision to end the Reval other then it was unfair? Did he not realize it would eventually be required by law? Was there a plan for that? Did he realize by waiting until values were at an all time high we will now have to kick more to the state?


IIRC, he also claims people will lose their homes due to a big jump in taxes. What he doesn't say (and fights against when called out on) is that those people he's protecting are a relatively small group of people, motsly in dtjc, who now have very high home values (and who would earn a lot of $$ if they in fact did have to sell). Not in all cases, but many of these people are also affluent and can likely afford the tax increase as well.

Someone please correct me if I'm mis-stating this...I'm still learning.

Posted on: 5/4 11:00
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I may have missed it but has Fulop explained his decision to end the Reval other then it was unfair? Did he not realize it would eventually be required by law? Was there a plan for that? Did he realize by waiting until values were at an all time high we will now have to kick more to the state?

Posted on: 5/4 10:42
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At what point did Fulop blow up?

Not sure if he did or didn't but he certainly blew it with his constituents.

Posted on: 5/3 19:11
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Posted on: 5/3 18:49
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Posted on: 5/3 14:54
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any idea how long it would take before taxes change post-reval? 6 months? 1 year? 2 years?


Jan 1st after completion of the reval. http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/revaluation.pdf

Think you can assume the reval itself will take 6 months. In all likelihood - Jan 1st 2018.

Posted on: 5/2 14:49
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Posted on: 5/2 11:21
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Quick appraisal of every property in town ?

Is that even possible ?


It won't be quick. If history is any indication, the process will be protracted and painful. But it is necessary.


any idea how long it would take before taxes change post-reval? 6 months? 1 year? 2 years?

Posted on: 5/2 10:23
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Much of the information in this thread is incorrect. I spoke to my sources in the city. They are shooting for $25 per thousand post reval. That's 2.5% which is the number they're hoping for. Don't expect it to be lower than that. And the city doesn't talk about percentages. It's always ** dollars per thousand.
Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation to have a post reval rate at or close to $25. This could be very ugly.


This makes no sense. The reval, by law, must be revenue neutral. All else equal, the city will have the exact amount in revenue before the reval when compared to after one. The only things that changes is the amount each property owner will pay. The city can have a "target" of whatever it wants, but it's all speculation until after the reval and the full ratabale base is known.

You're being fed lies if someone at the city suggested there would be significant spending cuts because of a reval. The revenue to the city stays exactly the same!

The biggest losers are going to be the large land owners around the waterfront, Newport Mall (which has seen its abatement expire), most of the homeowners in Ward E, and certain property owners on Ogden Avenue.

The winners will be owners who've made improvements on their properties and were reassessed at the current rate, and those poor souls in Greenville which are currently paying up to 5,6, or even 7 percent of their property's value in taxes. Their politicians have been doing a disservice for years as the current tax policy favors the wealthy downtown homeowner, who are paying 1 percent or less than their properties values in taxes.

$25 per thousand is meaningless until the full ratabale base is known. It could be $15 per thousand, or the consensus $21 per thousand. No one will know for sure on what the amount will be, or what the actual taxes until the reval is complete.

I also love the conspiracy theory that the city will hire an appraiser to purposely undervalue all properties. This city would still receive the exact same amount in revenue, and if consistently under appraising, it would not make a difference in the taxes owned by property owners. Where do people come up with this stuff?

I really wish the bs and misinformation on the reval would stop and just get on with it.

Posted on: 4/27 17:17
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brewster wrote:
Now tell us where you believe this process will go sideways.


The city hires an appraiser who will underappraise.


I think this would be a lot harder to pull off today than it would be before everyone's assessment is a just a click away. You can't have a place sell for $1m and then appraise $600k. It's going to be a huge squawkfest even if done in good faith, but if a pattern of under appraisal of certain areas appeared there would be blood in the water. I can't believe anyone would be that stupid, but given the path this has taken so far, I guess nothing can be ruled out.

But either way that still leaves us with the same levy, and no budget issues like SOS is scaring people with.

Posted on: 4/27 16:10
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brewster wrote:
Now tell us where you believe this process will go sideways.


The city hires an appraiser who will underappraise. Seems pretty straightforward. And, I must say, politically its a brilliant way out of a pretty big mess of his own making for Fulop. (It also could be the beginning of the end if malfeasance is proven.) This issue - not righting an economic disparity that disproportionately affects the poor when he had the power to do so, made doubly worse by the fact that it was by and large the poor subsidizing much wealthier people - was/is probably going to be the issue he'll be attacked most on during the gubernatorial campaign. That's a tough sell to democratic voters in NJ.

Now, he'll package his big box of turd with a wrapping paper of "I was fighting for a just solution and was the victim of politics" and a ribbon of "I cut taxes!"


I guess we have arrived at the junction where all the people who distrust the government start to spew their conspiracy theories. It makes ABSOLUTELY zero sense to hire a company willing to "under assess" or "under appraise" all properties to somehow make this situation better. If they under assess all properties, it means that the tax rate will have to be THAT MUCH HIGHER to end up with an overall tax levy that is equal to the one from the year before. Some of you seem to be missing that point: after a revaluation, the tax levy for JC must be IDENTICAL to what was collected the year before. The only thing that changes is how that levy is apportioned among all homeowners.

Unless, of course, you are trying to imply that they will hire a company that will be instructed to under appraise all DTJC properties, and over appraise property in other neighborhoods. That would require some top-grade, A-level kind of corruption and collusion that is likely to get easily exposed at some point.

Posted on: 4/27 16:04
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brewster wrote:
Now tell us where you believe this process will go sideways.


The city hires an appraiser who will underappraise. Seems pretty straightforward. And, I must say, politically its a brilliant way out of a pretty big mess of his own making for Fulop. (It also could be the beginning of the end if malfeasance is proven.) This issue - not righting an economic disparity that disproportionately affects the poor when he had the power to do so, made doubly worse by the fact that it was by and large the poor subsidizing much wealthier people - was/is probably going to be the issue he'll be attacked most on during the gubernatorial campaign. That's a tough sell to democratic voters in NJ.

Now, he'll package his big box of turd with a wrapping paper of "I was fighting for a just solution and was the victim of politics" and a ribbon of "I cut taxes!"

Posted on: 4/27 15:47
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Nothing nefarious going on. The budget will be reduced - somehow. Like I said "Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation" - reducing the city's payroll is the low hanging fruit I'd imagine. Your guess is as good as mine what else can possibly be cut.


Lets try it from the top and then you say where it goes wrong and brings in less taxes.

City appraises all properties

Then they add the value together, lets call that value 100

Divide the current total levy (lets call it 2) by the new value (100) and you get the new rate.

Ex: 2/100=0.02=2%

Which yields the same levy as the old rate from the new assessments. This is the process the law requires. Now tell us where you believe this process will go sideways.



Posted on: 4/27 13:15
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SOS wrote:
There's an incentive to lower the overall tax levy to meet the challenges of the reval.


Can you explain that? Are you saying you believe they'll deliberately under-appraise the most valuable properties to hold down their taxes, thus lowering the levy?...


Nothing nefarious going on. The budget will be reduced - somehow. Like I said "Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation" - reducing the city's payroll is the low hanging fruit I'd imagine. Provisional employees are at risk. Your guess is as good as mine what else can possibly be cut.

Posted on: 4/27 13:00
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There's an incentive to lower the overall tax levy to meet the challenges of the reval.


Can you explain that? Are you saying you believe they'll deliberately under-appraise the most valuable properties to hold down their taxes, thus lowering the levy?

I do understand the problem here is that the government has squandered it's good faith from citizens, so expecting fair dealing is more than some can muster. It's a bad rabbit hole to go down, look at China, India and other places mired in corruption of local officials.

Posted on: 4/27 12:28
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SOS wrote:
Much of the information in this thread is incorrect. I spoke to my sources in the city. They are shooting for $25 per thousand post reval. That's 2.5% which is the number they're hoping for. Don't expect it to be lower than that. And the city doesn't talk about percentages. It's always ** dollars per thousand.
Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation to have a post reval rate at or close to $25. This could be very ugly.


Given that the reval is BY LAW, supposed to end up with the exact same amount of revenue, I don't see how you can conclude there will need to be budget changes even IF your intel is correct.

To have the effective rate rise to that extent means that they think the city as a whole is currently overvalued, and would need a higher rate to bring in the same money from a smaller base than the estimate they now use. Possible, but it seems less likely than it's a little undervalued, given the current rate of appreciation.

I wish I could say that it's ridiculous for anyone to be "shooting" for anything, given that the numbers should have complete control. But I've had too many obviously fudged appraisals to believe that it can't be gamed. All you need to do is change the sq footage to hit your target number. I've held the tape for bank appraisers and seen them get it wrong by 20%.

$/k or whatever, it's still just numbers, certain cultures have different nomenclature. Wall St & lenders refers to 1% as "a point", but bond traders "use basis points" to refer to 0.01%. It really makes no difference as long as people know what you're talking about, but sometimes it seems the 'point' is to be obscure.


Huh believe what you want but that's how government works. There's an incentive to lower the overall tax levy to meet the challenges of the reval. No need to shoot the messenger. We can continue this discussion in a few years and see who's right. And that will be me.

Posted on: 4/27 12:09
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SOS wrote:
Much of the information in this thread is incorrect. I spoke to my sources in the city. They are shooting for $25 per thousand post reval. That's 2.5% which is the number they're hoping for. Don't expect it to be lower than that. And the city doesn't talk about percentages. It's always ** dollars per thousand.
Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation to have a post reval rate at or close to $25. This could be very ugly.


Given that the reval is BY LAW, supposed to end up with the exact same amount of revenue, I don't see how you can conclude there will need to be budget changes even IF your intel is correct.

To have the effective rate rise to that extent means that they think the city as a whole is currently overvalued, and would need a higher rate to bring in the same money from a smaller base than the estimate they now use. Possible, but it seems less likely than it's a little undervalued, given the current rate of appreciation.

I wish I could say that it's ridiculous for anyone to be "shooting" for anything, given that the numbers should have complete control. But I've had too many obviously fudged appraisals to believe that it can't be gamed. All you need to do is change the sq footage to hit your target number. I've held the tape for bank appraisers and seen them get it wrong by 20%.

$/k or whatever, it's still just numbers, certain cultures have different nomenclature. Wall St & lenders refers to 1% as "a point", but bond traders "use basis points" to refer to 0.01%. It really makes no difference as long as people know what you're talking about, but sometimes it seems the 'point' is to be obscure.

Posted on: 4/27 11:51
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Much of the information in this thread is incorrect. I spoke to my sources in the city. They are shooting for $25 per thousand post reval. That's 2.5% which is the number they're hoping for. Don't expect it to be lower than that. And the city doesn't talk about percentages. It's always ** dollars per thousand.
Expect some significant spending cuts and revenue generation to have a post reval rate at or close to $25. This could be very ugly.

Posted on: 4/27 11:26
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Voyeur wrote:

Folks on this thread have said homes in GV and the Heights are paying a disproportionate percentage in taxes above 2.1%. Is this actually the case? If I understand things correctly, for this to have occurred, these homes have to have a lower value today than they did in 1988 meaning that their current tax burden is northward of 2.1%.

I would have thought that almost every home in JC has appreciated at least somewhat since 1988 - even on MLK and Ocean Ave. Are their really any areas of JC where you will find a house assessed today at a lower value than it was assessed 28 years ago - and consequently paying more than 2.1%?

The point I'm trying to make is, just because DTJC is underpaying on its tax, it doesn't necessarily follow that the other hoods are consequently overpaying on property tax and are due for a tax reduction. The under-taxation of DT has no bearing on whether homes in Greenville are paying 2.1% of their assessed value or not - the relationship between the two is not causal.



Yes, it does mean other areas are overpaying. It's a ratio, if the tax bill on those properties has gone up over the years by a higher percentage than the increase in property values then they are paying more than 2.1%

Let's say we have two homes of the same value:

200k in 1988, paying 2.1% in taxes so, 4.2k

In 2016 the total tax ratio is still 2.1%
DT house is 800k paying 11.6k in taxes 1.44%
Not DT house is 300k paying 11.6k in taxes. 3.85%


The ratio of the DT house is below the 2.1 the ratio, the not DT above.

If the ratio remained unchanged it would look like this

800k house 16.8k
300k house 6.3k

Posted on: 4/26 8:45
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the 3/5 of tax payers who would have seen decreases in their tax bills would have been better off.

the mayor and council did not cause the growing disparity, but by fighting the reval, spending tax payer monies to try to stall and stop it, by putting forth a nonsensical and convoluted argument that all values in the city are derived from a downtown brownstone (even if a unit is abated), and by doing absolutely nothing the past three year to help mitigate the disruption and by allowing racial disparity to continue where poor minorities subsidize wealthy whites , they now own it and are responsible for this new look at "jersey city - make it yours."

the mayor and council could have, but did not right a wrong.

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thor800 wrote:
Whos to say the city would have been better off had the reval actually taken place ?

I wonder mostly about australian REIT Dixon

Posted on: 4/25 21:08
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Whos to say the city would have been better off had the reval actually taken place ?

I wonder mostly about australian REIT Dixon

Posted on: 4/25 20:42
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