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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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ditto.
In all the local Ward E community meetings, I attended over the years, Councilman Fulop always told us this is a necessary thing and it would happen.

Even if he, as mayor, disagreed with the company and methods in which the reval inspections were conducted, surely there is some way to allow for challenges if there were improprieties.

Also, I was under the impression that the year 2009 was to be taken as the property value year, so that the recent uptick in prices would not affect it.

If we have a base year ( 2009), then as properties come on line, one would think that if revals would take place more often than every 26 years, as in the past, and the newer/improved properties are put into the mix, then the tax rate would be adjusted to a fair, realistic one for all property owners. ( Is that how it works?)
Are abated properties part of this? I believe not.

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matt07302 wrote:
What is going on with this? I was under the impression that Jersey City is obligated to the State to do a reval at some point. Seems to me we actually missed an opportunity to do the reval last year when property values were still in a bit of a slump. Since last year property values have bumped and only look to be going up.

Posted on: 1/31 10:51
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What is going on with this? I was under the impression that Jersey City is obligated to the State to do a reval at some point. Seems to me we actually missed an opportunity to do the reval last year when property values were still in a bit of a slump. Since last year property values have bumped and only look to be going up.

Posted on: 1/30 22:53
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If what you want to know is whether your assessment is accurate, multiply the inverse of the official rate of 2.37% (42.194) by your taxes to get what they think it's worth. Their assumption for Garden is $388,185. Many of the older Downtown townhouses are paying about 1%, many people in other wards are paying well over 3%.

Posted on: 2013/11/4 20:26
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I just checked the Jersey City tax website and see that I have been assesed with three added bills for the final quarter of 2013 and the first two quarters of 2014 for almost $4000.


Did your place go through a condo conversion (e.g., you bought from a developer)?

Posted on: 2013/11/4 20:14
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I'm not in a tax abated property.

Posted on: 2013/11/4 19:43
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Are those whose taxes are going up living in tax abated properties?

Posted on: 2013/11/4 17:47
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I'm also curious what is going on with taxes here. I just checked the Jersey City tax website and see that I have been assesed with three added bills for the final quarter of 2013 and the first two quarters of 2014 for almost $4000. Apparently others in my condo are having the same issue for a similar amount.

Has anyone else seen these new assessments or happen to know what they are for? We've done no improvements on our property. With this assessment it would mean our annual tax burden is almost $10,000 for a small condo. This is absolutely insane.

Posted on: 2013/11/4 16:40
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Garden wrote:
What ever happened with this? Is it still happening? My taxes for my small brownstone condo were just raised again to $9,200 and my next door neighbor with their $1.4M row house are still paying $1,800 per year......


Really $1800? Care to name the address for verification? or do it yourself http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin ... &out_type=0&district=0906. I've looked at a lot of tax records but that's 1/6 of the typical very low brownstone taxes.

As for status: apparently a legal tussle between Fulop and the County. He doesn't have the legal power to cancel it as he wishes.

PS, why'd you post in "NOT JC"?

Posted on: 2013/11/4 16:13
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What ever happened with this? Is it still happening? My taxes for my small brownstone condo were just raised again to $9,200 and my next door neighbor with their $1.4M row house are still paying $1,800 per year......

Posted on: 2013/11/4 16:03
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Me thinks you need to figure out what the goal is.

If you want people to pay for the services they consume, and, for example, to provide them with an incentive to make their neighborhoods better, - you need one solution.

If you want to stick it up to thy neighbor Detroit-style, - well, the solution will be different.


Posted on: 2013/9/17 22:51
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Do the property reval now!

I received this response from the RRC a week and a half after asking -

"Currently the city has suspended the tax reval until further notice it is the County figuring out how to proceed."

Most people I know need certainty. Isn't that the reason for tax abatements. It gives developes certainty.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 22:23
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Quote:

MDM wrote:
This thread is illustrating a real flaw in our property tax system: The tax emphases is on the improvements and not the land.

This provides a major dis-insensitive in investing in an urban area. It can be more profitable for you to manage a slum property than to renovate it into something nice.

Perhaps it might behoove the leadership of Jersey City and the State of NJ to look at what cities like Pittsburgh in the past have done? Pittsburgh put the tax emphasis on the land, not the improvements.

A little more on the above here:

http://www.streets.mn/2012/12/10/tax-land-not-buildings/


From Wiki "Pittsburgh used the two-rate system from 1913 to 2001[17] when a countywide property reassessment led to a drastic increase in assessed land values during 2001 after years of underassessment, and the system was abandoned in favor of the traditional single-rate property tax. The tax on land in Pittsburgh was about 5.77 times the tax on improvements."

It sounds like it's as fraught to administer fairly as our system, and leads to at least as many undesirable "tax artifacts". Some people might feel encouraging maximum development possible on any given lot not to be in the best interest of the community. I assume it would mean epidemic of teardowns of historic but underdeveloped properties.

Much as it's entertaining to discuss outside the box alternatives, its not going to happen in the short term. The main cause of the current problem isn't the current tax system itself but the criminal delaying of the reval that led to assessments so far off that the correction will be dramatic and painful. This topic like having the boiler break because you never maintained it for 25 years, and then sitting around in the cold discussing the shortcomings of steam heat.

The best long term solution is the reval scheduling needs to be regular like the census, not subject to the whims of politicians.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 19:42
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If the land tax is $12,000 for the land, that tax would be split between each condo unit.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 17:16
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MDM - How would that work with condos vs. brownstones? FOr instance, I don't think it would be fair to have condo owners who each own a floor of a brownstone to pay $12,000 each for their 1000 sq. ft unit, but the owner of a million dollar plus brownstone with 3 floors and 3000 square ft. pays only $12000 for the entire brownstone, simply because the plot of "land" is worth about the same. This does not make sense in a city environment.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 17:06
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This thread is illustrating a real flaw in our property tax system: The tax emphases is on the improvements and not the land.

This provides a major dis-insensitive in investing in an urban area. It can be more profitable for you to manage a slum property than to renovate it into something nice.

Perhaps it might behoove the leadership of Jersey City and the State of NJ to look at what cities like Pittsburgh in the past have done? Pittsburgh put the tax emphasis on the land, not the improvements.

A little more on the above here:

http://www.streets.mn/2012/12/10/tax-land-not-buildings/

Posted on: 2013/9/17 16:40
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Quote:

jcdd wrote:
The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date. I am tired of the baby boomers expecting the younger generation to pay for their lifestyle. We are already paying your social security, your medicare --social programs that us younger folks will never get at the same levels that are currently in place. Younger folks have grossly inflated college costs, a more difficult job market and no such thing as "retirement" or pensions. We will be working (and paying our student loans) until we die. No such thing as gardening, traveling and playing golf in our 60s like baby boomers today. Nor, by the way, can we afford to buy the house that you are selling in Jersey City.

It's a much more difficult world for young people now because the older generations ran up the bills and we are stuck paying for it.

If you can't afford the updated taxes, sell your house, make a huge profit and move to Florida.


I echo this. I am in a PILOT and my taxes are ridiculous. What I pay in taxes would get me a place on 1/3 of an acre and a school district I wouldn't be afraid to send kids to elsewhere in NJ.

The PILOT people are paying taxes on 2004-7 prices, which newsflash, are not 2013 flashes despite somewhat of a comeback.

Yet somehow the narrative is that we are leaches, but people paying taxes from a time when Hamilton Park was a crack den are the victims.

We are being ripped off, except we weren't the ones here electing corrupt adminstrations and getting no-show high pay city jobs.

Those are the next to go after the city gets it dose of reality.

People against the 30 year abatement in JSQ are against it not because of some "fairness" idea, but rather because it will bring in more "interlopers" who won't stand for what pre-Fulop JC had to deal with. It will be another ward of young people and suburban expats with real demands and expectations than can't be met by the political machine.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 16:08
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SOS wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

jcdd wrote:
The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date.


I'm not so sure this POV is correct. When I search through records, it's not easy to find many properties with ownership dating back more than 25 years. Since there is no reval of a property on transfer, new owners get the cheap taxes, and tremendous numbers of undertaxed Downtown properties have transferred in the last decade.


jcdd's assumption is that most buyers in Jersey City opt for new construction - shiny new condos. I don't believe this is true.


There's some truth to this, based on my own experience and those of friends. Younger, newer owners in JC tend to buy condos. If they're not buying new construction, they're buying condo conversions of older buildings. When the conversion happens, these condos are assessed as though they're new construction. The building I used to own in was a 19th century row house that previously was taxed based on its 1987 valuation. The pre-conversion tax was ridiculously low - around $7,000/year 11 years ago. When that building was sold and carved up into condos, the city reassessed each unit as new construction, with the four units last year paying anywhere from $8,000 to just over $10,000 in tax. The most severely undertaxed properties downtown are those brownstones/row houses whose current values are in the neighborhood of $1 million but pay just slightly more tax than a condo that's a quarter of the size.

When friends ask about buying in JC, I advise them to avoid one of these recent condo conversions because you'll be hit with a double-whammy of an unfairly high tax burden on top of frequent costly repairs (hey, something is always breaking in a 130-year-old building). With the newer buildings, you shop for a PILOT, which will at least provide stability in taxes during the term of abatement, and stuff isn't breaking so often.

Brewster's also right in that the longtime owners - those early pioneers who bought in downtown more than 25 years ago - are mostly gone. Those people weren't dumb, they cashed out and sold their homes during the bubble. An elderly couple who lived a couple doors down basically funded their retirement when they sold in 2007.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 14:15
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

jcdd wrote:
The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date.


I'm not so sure this POV is correct. When I search through records, it's not easy to find many properties with ownership dating back more than 25 years. Since there is no reval of a property on transfer, new owners get the cheap taxes, and tremendous numbers of undertaxed Downtown properties have transferred in the last decade.


jcdd's assumption is that most buyers in Jersey City opt for new construction - shiny new condos. I don't believe this is true.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 11:42
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jcdd wrote:
The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date.


I'm not so sure this POV is correct. When I search through records, it's not easy to find many properties with ownership dating back more than 25 years. Since there is no reval of a property on transfer, new owners get the cheap taxes, and tremendous numbers of undertaxed Downtown properties have transferred in the last decade.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 11:31
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As usual John, you don't and probably can't provide any counter-argument, just empty noise. Why don't you start another recall petition, and fail again? Rabble rousing is your thing, right Mr Lynch? JCPAC running low on donations?

http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index ... _is_failing_city_let.html

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... residents_begin_re_2.html

http://jcpac.capellic.com/about


Quote:

john1952 wrote:
Come on you don't actually have to believe everything a politician says. During the campaign the mayor would give a convoluted speech about how all Jersey City property values derive from a brownstone in Paulus Hook. Delusional.

We are talking about different markets, different demographics. Go have a drink.

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dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
...
Yet nobody but me is pointing out that rather than be sucked down by the vortex of falling prices, the other wards where taxes FALL should see a bump in values!
...


Debatable for 2 reasons: downtown price falls will likely act as a drag on valuations elsewhere, and there's likely to be enough motivated sellers in every ward to drive prices down in the ward.

And perversely, even if what you predict happens, and other wards see a relative increase in valuation, then they would be under-assessed with a locked-in tax abatement until the next reval.

I don't think the consequences of the reval were considered. I'd like to see it happen, but planned a little better for the overall benefit of both the City and it's residents.

PS: Perhaps not popular with downtown, but is there any reason different wards in JC can't have different county equalization rates? That would probably keep assessed values closer to reality, and make the next reval much less painful.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 10:31
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The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date. I am tired of the baby boomers expecting the younger generation to pay for their lifestyle. We are already paying your social security, your medicare --social programs that us younger folks will never get at the same levels that are currently in place. Younger folks have grossly inflated college costs, a more difficult job market and no such thing as "retirement" or pensions. We will be working (and paying our student loans) until we die. No such thing as gardening, traveling and playing golf in our 60s like baby boomers today. Nor, by the way, can we afford to buy the house that you are selling in Jersey City.

It's a much more difficult world for young people now because the older generations ran up the bills and we are stuck paying for it.

If you can't afford the updated taxes, sell your house, make a huge profit and move to Florida.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 10:30
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Come on you don't actually have to believe everything a politician says. During the campaign the mayor would give a convoluted speech about how all Jersey City property values derive from a brownstone in Paulus Hook. Delusional.

We are talking about different markets, different demographics. Go have a drink.

Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
...
Yet nobody but me is pointing out that rather than be sucked down by the vortex of falling prices, the other wards where taxes FALL should see a bump in values!
...


Debatable for 2 reasons: downtown price falls will likely act as a drag on valuations elsewhere, and there's likely to be enough motivated sellers in every ward to drive prices down in the ward.

And perversely, even if what you predict happens, and other wards see a relative increase in valuation, then they would be under-assessed with a locked-in tax abatement until the next reval.

I don't think the consequences of the reval were considered. I'd like to see it happen, but planned a little better for the overall benefit of both the City and it's residents.

PS: Perhaps not popular with downtown, but is there any reason different wards in JC can't have different county equalization rates? That would probably keep assessed values closer to reality, and make the next reval much less painful.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 9:22
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brewster wrote:
...
Yet nobody but me is pointing out that rather than be sucked down by the vortex of falling prices, the other wards where taxes FALL should see a bump in values!
...


Debatable for 2 reasons: downtown price falls will likely act as a drag on valuations elsewhere, and there's likely to be enough motivated sellers in every ward to drive prices down in the ward.

And perversely, even if what you predict happens, and other wards see a relative increase in valuation, then they would be under-assessed with a locked-in tax abatement until the next reval.

I don't think the consequences of the reval were considered. I'd like to see it happen, but planned a little better for the overall benefit of both the City and it's residents.

PS: Perhaps not popular with downtown, but is there any reason different wards in JC can't have different county equalization rates? That would probably keep assessed values closer to reality, and make the next reval much less painful.

Posted on: 2013/9/17 0:27
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dtjcview wrote:
The taxes may be a zero-sum game, but property valuations are not. Price drops downtown could well trigger price drops city-wide, wiping out a lot of folks equity. People thinking of buying downtown won't automatically consider other parts of JC, and may well take their money elsewhere. Net money may well flow out of all of JC.


It's funny how everyone says the reval will drop Downtown prices. Yet nobody but me is pointing out that rather than be sucked down by the vortex of falling prices, the other wards where taxes FALL should see a bump in values! And post reval Downtown buyers could care less that the sellers lost some equity, like I said they only look at their monthly nut. They may go elsewhere at first as sellers are stubborn and try and keep prices unrealistically high. But even that can't last, just as in the 08 crash, "must sell" deals set a new comp baseline and the prices will align with the new reality.

Posted on: 2013/9/16 23:54
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On the topic of disgusting, perhaps you think you can benefit from buying up discounted properties to rent out from those forced to sell?


Once again a core misunderstanding of the market. Since a property's "cost" to a noncash buyer is it's monthly payments, there will be no effective "discount", since the price will only likely fall so as the carrying costs to the buyer of mortgage plus taxes remains the same. Not that I'd buy Downtown properties that would be overpriced even if they dropped significantly, but if my monthly nut as buyer is the same, I've gotten no bargain, even in the probably rare event that someone is forced to sell.

Longtime owners who have made hundreds of thousands, or even millions in some cases, can afford to pay some of that as taxes. Newer owners have deeper pockets, and should have been advised by their brokers and attorneys that the situation could not last.

Almost nobody is arguing for a better executed reval, they just want the status quo to continue. I say again, opposing the reval is nothing more than demanding that other residents keep paying more than their share so you can pay less than your share. I can see no justification for that.


Funny thing about markets, is they don't obey the simple math rules you seem to be applying. I'll give you a for example. If the tax increase forces a prices drop of > 15%, a lot of people can appeal on a comp sales basis and reduce their tax burden. Which in turn will whiplash taxes back up for everyone else.

The taxes may be a zero-sum game, but property valuations are not. Price drops downtown could well trigger price drops city-wide, wiping out a lot of folks equity. People thinking of buying downtown won't automatically consider other parts of JC, and may well take their money elsewhere. Net money may well flow out of all of JC.

And you are simply wrong about there being few people forced to sell. A lot of people are struggling to pay their taxes as-is, and any increase in valuation is paper profit only, and won't pay the tax bill. The reval will hit properties across all of JC, potentially flooding the market with motivated sellers, and driving prices down.

Given the above, you're wrong about not being a buying opportunity for prospective landlords. Your simple math ignores the real possibility of a significant crash in local prices, motivated sellers, and complications like re-appraisals after price drops.

Core understanding of the market? I don't pretend to understand it. But I know if you change the underlying rules, the law of unexpected consequences always comes into play.

Posted on: 2013/9/16 23:40
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On the topic of disgusting, perhaps you think you can benefit from buying up discounted properties to rent out from those forced to sell?


Once again a core misunderstanding of the market. Since a property's "cost" to a noncash buyer is it's monthly payments, there will be no effective "discount", since the price will only likely fall so as the carrying costs to the buyer of mortgage plus taxes remains the same. Not that I'd buy Downtown properties that would be overpriced even if they dropped significantly, but if my monthly nut as buyer is the same, I've gotten no bargain, even in the probably rare event that someone is forced to sell.

Longtime owners who have made hundreds of thousands, or even millions in some cases, can afford to pay some of that as taxes. Newer owners have deeper pockets, and should have been advised by their brokers and attorneys that the situation could not last.

Almost nobody is arguing for a better executed reval, they just want the status quo to continue. I say again, opposing the reval is nothing more than demanding that other residents keep paying more than their share so you can pay less than your share. I can see no justification for that.

Posted on: 2013/9/16 19:50
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brewster wrote:

... You're essentially saying "we can't increase the taxes on the undertaxed because that would reduce their equity, therefore we must continue to overtax the rest of the property owners and continue to suppress their values". I find the argument disgusting.
...


On the topic of disgusting, perhaps you think you can benefit from buying up discounted properties to rent out from those forced to sell?

I agreed with you that the property tax should be fairly applied. I just happen to believe that there has got to be a better way than simply a hard shock to the system that happened last reval. The shock should be buffered. Perhaps short-term abatements, tax deferral until transfer, or something similar?

Posted on: 2013/9/16 17:27
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I pay my way. I pay a lot more relative to my downtown neighbors, down to the bizarre way taxes have been historically assessed. And I would benefit more than most downtown from the reval.

And what is voodoo about paying for the city services you get? That's not about cutting taxes, but it forces more transparency and accountability. Seems more like voodoo handing the City a blank check every quarter and hoping they actually spend it on something useful.


We all would like a more efficient government. That really has nothing to do with the issue under discussion, taxing the citizens fairly and equally. You're essentially saying "we can't increase the taxes on the undertaxed because that would reduce their equity, therefore we must continue to overtax the rest of the property owners and continue to suppress their values". I find the argument disgusting.

You can argue that there should be less opacity about JC taxes for buyers, but that has more to do with the mendacity of the real estate professionals not disclosing how taxes work here. Any buyer should be told "the taxes on this property at this closing price are x% under what is considered appropriate by the city and will be subject to change in event of a revaluation." It's 4th grade arithmetic to calculate correct taxes from a given price. There's no excuse for anyone to think "wow, the taxes on this place are low! I'll buy it because they'll always be low!"

Posted on: 2013/9/16 16:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I pay my way. I pay a lot more relative to my downtown neighbors, down to the bizarre way taxes have been historically assessed. And I would benefit more than most downtown from the reval.

And what is voodoo about paying for the city services you get? That's not about cutting taxes, but it forces more transparency and accountability. Seems more like voodoo handing the City a blank check every quarter and hoping they actually spend it on something useful.

Quote:

john1952 wrote:

Thats BS. I think it used to be called voodoo economics. So then cut everbodys taxes and everybodys value goes up. We are paying higher taxes so that you can protect downtown property values. Pay your way. Taxes are to fund services not to boost your home value.

Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Brewster - property tax as it stands isn't applied fairly, and you're right - it should. But there is a point in Boris's post. The reval would pull the rug on a large number of downtown properties, wiping millions off overall property values. JC doesn't need that kind of self-inflicted "black swan" at this time.

I'd also argue that property tax is a pretty regressive and archaic form of taxation, that contributes to local government waste and inefficiency. I'd much rather pay for local services pretty much like my water bill - pay for use, with a flat rate for essential services.

Posted on: 2013/9/16 15:50
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Quote:

john1952 wrote:

Thats BS. I think it used to be called voodoo economics. So then cut everbodys taxes and everybodys value goes up. We are paying higher taxes so that you can protect downtown property values. Pay your way. Taxes are to fund services not to boost your home value.

Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Brewster - property tax as it stands isn't applied fairly, and you're right - it should. But there is a point in Boris's post. The reval would pull the rug on a large number of downtown properties, wiping millions off overall property values. JC doesn't need that kind of self-inflicted "black swan" at this time.

I'd also argue that property tax is a pretty regressive and archaic form of taxation, that contributes to local government waste and inefficiency. I'd much rather pay for local services pretty much like my water bill - pay for use, with a flat rate for essential services.


LOLOL!!! well said.

Posted on: 2013/9/16 14:12
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