Register now !    Login  
Main Menu
Who's Online
35 user(s) are online (32 user(s) are browsing Message Forum)

Members: 0
Guests: 35

more...


Forum Index


Board index » All Posts (JCGuys)




Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#1
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

hero69 wrote:
i'm just now reading nyt magazine article about nyc subway:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/mag ... on-wealth-inequality.html

article makes me appreciate PATH and the subway more...maybe fares should be raised to make necessary improvements?


Not only should fares rise, but they should add a peak-hour premium to whatever is needed to reduce overcrowding and to encourage folks to go a half hour earlier or later. Unpopular opinion, but PATH is a fraction of the costs associated with driving.

Posted on: 1/14 11:45
Top


Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#2
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

val7101 wrote:
I don't think I'm the troll. Have you tried it?


I've been to Newark. The trek from Journal Square to Harrison is horrible and is frequently delayed.

No one in their right mind is going to make an ~18 minute trek from Grove to Harrison, do an awkward transfer that may have to involve existing the system to due construction, and spend another 18 minutes backtracking to Grove just for a chance at a seat, which is no guarantee because they fill up at Newark.

An extra 35 minutes or so added to the commute when you could just stand in line and wait another 240 seconds for the next train.

As someone mentioned. The smart thing to do is walk to Exchange Place if it's within walking distance as there a lot of people that get off on that stop during the morning rush.

Posted on: 1/11 10:47
Top


Re: Booker T. Washington - No Heat Plagues Tenants - RIDICULOUS!
#3
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

hero69 wrote:
hahaha. just i still think double decker trains would be awesome. as i pointed out, i would be feasible...instead of traisn with 7' ceilings, you could have 2 levels with 6' ceilings but with much lower carriages...do i think it's gonna happen? nO. do i think it's a good idea? yes.


LoL for being a good sport about it!!

Articulated trains are the way to go - another 10% increase in capacity or more plus safety benefits.




Posted on: 1/10 15:22
Top


Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#4
Home away from home
Home away from home


I've never had standing room only when boarding a train at 3am on MTA. However, there have been times I've been at 14th street at 3am and I can't even board a train because it's packed worse than a WTC-bound train departing Grove St. during rush hour.

It's true, PATH is one of the few subway systems in the world that operate 24/7, but that's because the demand is there. Show me another system that transports as many people, given the microscopic size of the system, relatively speaking.

PATH is vital to the economic health of the region and is used heavily during the overnight hours. I'm willing to venture that most systems in the world do not have the same passenger demand overnight as PATH.

Posted on: 1/10 14:15
Top


Re: Booker T. Washington - No Heat Plagues Tenants - RIDICULOUS!
#5
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
No one should live in JC and not contribute to government especially if you vote, so I believe in a city income tax instead of property tax.


HAHAHAHAHA - the last thing Jersey City needs is a city income tax, like NYC.

And renters do pay property taxes indirectly. Where do you think landlords get the funds to pay property taxes on their rental properties, as well as other expenses? NJ's tax code recognizes this and offers a tax break for renters for implied property taxes paid, based on a function of the amount of rent paid.

A city income tax is literally the worst idea I've ever read on JCList. Even worse than the guy who wanted the Port Authority to run double-decker PATH trains to increase capacity...


Look, the tenants did not make the deal with the city, the politicians did, but the fact remains public housing in Jersey City pays zero to the city. NYC has a fair policy, everyone pays either through city sales taxes or income tax. You do not believe in fairness.


Yvonne,

1) There is a difference between renters of a market rate unit, which indirectly pay property taxes through the rents they give their landlord, and public housing.

2) There are income limits to live in public housing. Chances are the residents are not going earning a bunch of income to tax. The introduction of a city income tax is not going to collect much funds from someone making minimum wage or nothing at all. It will hit higher-earning households the most.

3) Now you're talking about the introduction of a city sales tax. This just keeps getting better and better. Usually food and other basic supplies are tax exempt. The poorest of the poor living in public housing aren't likely going to have a large disposable income to spend in Jersey City for sales taxes to be collected. Again, it's going to hit mainly the middle class and above.

You've gotta be just trolling now since the introduction of a city income tax and city sales tax will likely result in YOU paying more taxes than the less fortunate residents of the city you're trying to punish.

What we ought to do is grow the revenue base by encouraging as many luxury condos that bring in PILOT or property tax revenue to the city but costs very little in city services. The 99 Hudson development now rising in the skyline is a godsend to Jersey City. Best part of all, they did not apply for a tax abatement. That's over half a billion in ratables that will help lower everyone's property taxes.

Posted on: 1/10 14:10
Top


Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#6
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

val7101 wrote:
For WTC commuters shut out at Grove:
Take the Newark train back to Harrison not JSQ. JSQ is frequently as bad as Grove now and Harrison is only 3 minutes away and frequently much more civilized. It's pretty annoying to take the train backward to JSQ and still get shut out of one or two trains. Particularly between 8 and 9am.


This is a troll post. It's like 15 minutes to Harrison. 15 minutes back to Journal Square, and it's not an easy transfer -- you might even have to exit the system to get back in.

Posted on: 1/10 10:59
Top


Re: Booker T. Washington - No Heat Plagues Tenants - RIDICULOUS!
#7
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

hero69 wrote:

concentrating all the poor in one area just breeds more poverty imo


Agreed! That's why I get so frustrated when I here housing advocates and city officials push for anything greater than 50/50 mix use. They're concentrating poverty, which breeds more of it.

There is an article on NJ.com yesterday about the mayor pushing Bayfront to have 50/50 mix of affordable and market rate units.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... e_housing_at_bayfron.html

Sounds good - but upper end of the development plans calls for 8,500 additional units. Is there really a developer out there that will undertake the construction of 4,250 affordable units? We'll soon see...

Posted on: 1/10 10:57
Top


Re: Booker T. Washington - No Heat Plagues Tenants - RIDICULOUS!
#8
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
No one should live in JC and not contribute to government especially if you vote, so I believe in a city income tax instead of property tax.


HAHAHAHAHA - the last thing Jersey City needs is a city income tax, like NYC.

And renters do pay property taxes indirectly. Where do you think landlords get the funds to pay property taxes on their rental properties, as well as other expenses? NJ's tax code recognizes this and offers a tax break for renters for implied property taxes paid, based on a function of the amount of rent paid.

A city income tax is literally the worst idea I've ever read on JCList. Even worse than the guy who wanted the Port Authority to run double-decker PATH trains to increase capacity...

Posted on: 1/10 10:48
Top


Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#9
Home away from home
Home away from home


Ditto. Any other transit agency in the world, you'd likely get a seat between midnight and 4am. But in PATH they run so few trains that it's standing room only, even worse than rush hour sometimes.

Posted on: 1/2 23:13
Top


Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
#10
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

I_heart_JC wrote:
Can anyone explain the logic behind the elevator at Grove Street? I'm actually surprised this hasn't come up before.

To call the elevator, one must push - AND THEN HOLD - the button, until the elevator arrives.

Once on the damn thing, the passenger must push and hold the button until the elevator reaches its destination. Let go, and you're stuck between floors. And it's not just pushing the button, you really have to lean into it, hard.

It is an awkward maneuver for the able-bodied. I cannot imagine how an elderly person with a walker or a wheelchair-bound passenger could comfortably accomplish this.

I used the elevator because I had my hands full of heavy luggage. Oh hey, there's a button I need to press and hold my full body weight into. Handy.

In typical Port Authority manner, they've taken something simple, and made it complicated.

And how is this even ADA-compliant?


Unbelievable. It's like they've gone it that way to design it that poorly out of spite. I would relish is this was also found to be non ADA compliant and they're forced to rework it again.

Posted on: 1/2 18:12
Top


Re: Advice to avoid BS charges when buying from a used dealer car?
#11
Home away from home
Home away from home


Best advice is just be prepared to walk away at any BS. Do not get emotionally attached to a car.

Posted on: 1/2 18:11
Top


Re: Jersey City Medical Center Medical Bill
#12
Home away from home
Home away from home


My experience

I been to the ER twice. Similar issues both times, but different locations. I was in NYC the first time. Went to a hospital in Queens and was there for about 10 hours. Was properly diagnosed and treated. Total bill was around $100 with insurance. I was very impressed.

Second time I went to the ER room in Hoboken. Total out of pocket bill was over a couple thousands with insurance and they didn't even solve the issue! I had to go to a walk in clinic in Manhattan the next day to receive proper treatment and the doctor was perplexed why the ER doctor prescribed the medicine they did.

I'm never ever going to another hospital in New Jersey. Overbilled for inferior service. I have no doubt in my mind that if I complained I would have had a reduced bill, but was extremely busy period in my life at that time, so I just paid it.




Posted on: 12/19 13:15
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#13
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:

As for "who cares about kids"... precisely the people that you highlight as not caring about kids (those childless by choice, or perhaps single) are precisely the kind of people who often find it objectionable to have to pay such high taxes when getting nothing in return! Often times, the people with kids choose to move further out into the burbs because, well, if you are going to pay 25 - 30 K annually in taxes, you "might as well get something out of it".


But the 1.6% property tax rate is less than the burbs. Why would someone without kids move to the burbs only to pay higher school taxes? If the burbs had a lower property tax rate, I could see where you have a point but the reverse is true.

I have no doubt there will be some people priced out of downtown Jersey City, but I also have no doubt there will be many more people moving into downtown Jersey City (from Manhattan and Brooklyn). I don't see a market crash because of the reval.



I do not expect a full-blown crash. I do think there will be some churn, some instability, and probably a drop in values as some people feel forced to dump properties they are suddenly not able to afford. But, Jersey City is very enticing for many people, and not just financial refugees from NYC. But, there are a few factors that give me pause, and we will have to wait to see what happens. An elimination or capping of mortgage or SALT deduction, plus the uncertain state of school / BOE taxes (you can be certain that if we end up with a 1.6% tax rate, Trenton and many municipalities will be pushing for JC to take on a larger share of the local BOE budget) and there is the fact that we are in a 10-year period since the last correction/recession. Ideally, none of those three things will come to pass, but if one or two or all three come to be, well... all bets are off. The 2007 situation was bad (assuredly, DTJC fared better than the rest of JC, and recovered quickly) so a combination of all these factors could be brutal. But, long term, JC is likely to have a very bright future. Enough change has taken place and I think the city will be fine.


Agreed on federal capping of the SALT deduction and Trenton pushing for JC to take on larger share of BOE budget. To me, these are much bigger stories than the reval.

I also accept that the 1.62% tax rate produced by the reval and possible changes to the school funding aid formula, are indirectly related, as stateaidguy predicted.

Posted on: 12/15 21:17
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#14
Home away from home
Home away from home


JCVoter/Solomon is gonna have a lot of angry homeowners to answer to when their taxes jump 75%

With the timing of the reval information release, it's almost like Fulop planned this punishment on Solomon. LoL!!

Posted on: 12/15 21:14
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#15
Home away from home
Home away from home


Most Jersey City homeowners outside of Ward E will see no change to significant cuts in their property taxes.

Western Slope of The Heights will average a 25 percent decrease. Nice!

Posted on: 12/15 21:13
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#16
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

landshark wrote:
One street over:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/82-prospect-st,-jersey-city,-nj-07307_rb/

Was the Heights supposed to be in the 1/3 that taxes stayed the same?


Yup. Can't wait for the reval to happen so we can see who had the best prediction. I'm thinking 1.75% of fair market value. Greenville will be in the best shape. There will be winners and losers in the heights. The biggest losers will be the land speculators that are sitting on $50 million properties that are only assessed for $100,000 back in 1987.


Bumping my post from March. I predicted 1.75%, when it's only 1.62% hahahaha!


I was expecting a 1.8% tax rate. Really surprised at the 1.62% (not yet final) so things are not as DIRE for DTJC, but will still crush a bunch of new homeowners who ought properties paying effective rates of 0.5 to 0.8. Those people are looking at increases of at least between 2 and 3 times the previous taxes. Ouch.


bodhipooh, please see my the post I bumped from last year. SOS was expecting 2.5% based on some arsehold friend he trusts from city hall. LoL.

Is SOS a disinformation agent in Ward E?

Posted on: 12/15 21:10
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#17
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

SOS wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:


Thanks again for an informative post SAG. If only everyone, never mind an outsider with an agenda built into his name, were so civil and fact based.


All of stateaidguy's posts have been extremely informative and factual. I'm curious, who the outsider with an agenda built into his name - SOS? lol


I had a candid discussion with a long time city employee who's opinion I trust. This person isn't a politician and has served under many administrations. He believes that we'll have taxes of $25 per thousand (or what tax newbs call 2.5%) if we are very fortunate. It could easily be in the high 20's +. So if you want to shoot the messenger, go for it! I can guarantee that he knows more about the reval and jc taxes than anyone posting in this thread. Certainly more than me.


If your "source" is correct (he may be, or maybe not) then the hit will be much significant than even some are expecting. I wouldn't want to find myself sitting on a brownstone valued at over 1 million which currently pays 10K, or less. All those properties paying effective rates of 1% or less will get some nasty sticker shock.

BTW, not sure why you refer to people using percentages as tax newbs. In every other place where I have lived, taxes are always quoted as percentages. Ultimately, it is all the same. There is no difference between saying 2.5% or $25 per thousand.

Total aside: went to see a property last night that is being advertised for 1.5 MM at the site of a former bank on Montgomery (btw, the condo was way overpriced, it should be 1.2, or maybe even 1MM) and the taxes on it are a paltry 12K. If that property actually sells for 1.5MM, and your quoted rate of 2.5% comes to be, the updated tax bill would be 37.5K, a three time increase. What was particularly appalling is that the realtors were highlighting the low taxes in their advertising materials, without any mention of the impending reval. I wonder how many people are buying into the hot real estate market without any idea of what awaits them in less than two years.


Calling out SOS for disinfo:

"He believes that we'll have taxes of $25 per thousand (or what tax newbs call 2.5%) if we are very fortunate. It could easily be in the high 20's +. So if you want to shoot the messenger, go for it! I can guarantee that he knows more about the reval and jc taxes than anyone posting in this thread. Certainly more than me."

Your long time city employee was full of crap!

Posted on: 12/15 21:08
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#18
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

ProdigalSon wrote:
From my understanding of the reassessment, the city will provide a fair market value for the home, if it sells at 1.8 it's a pretty good indication that 1.8 is the FMV. If the taxes go to 2.0%(seems low but humor me) that would make the taxes 36k annually, or 3k a month. That represents an increase of $2,117 in monthly overhead, which corresponds to about $580k in mortgage at 3.625%, I wouldn't touch downtown JC until after this is over.


Looks like you were wrong. You said 2.0% seems low. Actual will be closer to 1.6% hahaha.

Posted on: 12/15 21:03
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#19
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

landshark wrote:
One street over:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/82-prospect-st,-jersey-city,-nj-07307_rb/

Was the Heights supposed to be in the 1/3 that taxes stayed the same?


Yup. Can't wait for the reval to happen so we can see who had the best prediction. I'm thinking 1.75% of fair market value. Greenville will be in the best shape. There will be winners and losers in the heights. The biggest losers will be the land speculators that are sitting on $50 million properties that are only assessed for $100,000 back in 1987.


Bumping my post from March. I predicted 1.75%, when it's only 1.62% hahahaha!

Posted on: 12/15 21:01
Top


Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
#20
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

ecoindie wrote:
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/ ... ble_after_phantom_15.html

Appraisal Systems (Fulop hired for Reval) caused Maplewood property owner's property taxes to rise 111 percent from $7,100 to $15,000 in 18 months with bogus claims of non existent improvements and features.


bump. majority of JC neighborhoods seeing tax decrease. lol

Posted on: 12/15 20:57
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#21
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:

As for "who cares about kids"... precisely the people that you highlight as not caring about kids (those childless by choice, or perhaps single) are precisely the kind of people who often find it objectionable to have to pay such high taxes when getting nothing in return! Often times, the people with kids choose to move further out into the burbs because, well, if you are going to pay 25 - 30 K annually in taxes, you "might as well get something out of it".


But the 1.6% property tax rate is less than the burbs. Why would someone without kids move to the burbs only to pay higher school taxes? If the burbs had a lower property tax rate, I could see where you have a point but the reverse is true.

I have no doubt there will be some people priced out of downtown Jersey City, but I also have no doubt there will be many more people moving into downtown Jersey City (from Manhattan and Brooklyn). I don't see a market crash because of the reval.


Posted on: 12/15 19:38
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#22
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Dolmoti is spot on. Tight inventory and high demand will soften the blow to DTJC RE in the short term. Longer term it's tough to say. 1.6% is less than I was expecting so frankly it could have been worse for DTJC.

The real issue is will DTJC buyers pay suburb level taxes for lousy city services (iffy schools). Trump's tax plan ain't making the case any easier. Taxes are sunk costs, owners aren't building equity with those payments.

My take is DTJC is overvalued as are stock markets and RE in general. I think if the other bubbles deflate DTJC will take it a bit harder than average. As always tough to know when or if other bubbles pop...


No one cares about schools. You're either living the life with no children or sending your kids to private schools if you can afford a $7,000 a month mortgage payment.

Downtown prices will continue to appreciate because they're still a bargain compared to New York City prices.


I am not so sure I agree with this take. Take an upper middle class family, paying 5K for monthly mortgage, now add 2K for taxes, and if they have a kid that's another 2K for private school. That's 9K / month. Or, you can go to BK, or even Manhattan, and be able to get an 8K mortgage, with almost negligible property taxes (definitely below 1K for that mortgage) and free schooling and you end up spending the same or less in NYC, with better city services at your disposal. At some point, the combination of crazy property taxes + shitty city services + private schools starts to bridge the gap in real estate costs.


What's missing from your calculation is the NYC income tax that all NYC residents must pay and that can be easily avoided by living in Jersey. And who cares about kids? The folks moving here could be on permanent birth control or same sex and quality of schools have exactly zero influence on their decision to buy.

The beauty of this discussion is we will find out relatively soon who is right and I hope every posts is bumped a year from now to see who was right and who got it painfully wrong.

In my opinion, prices should have plummeted already if prices were expected to fall in the near future.


Posted on: 12/15 14:04
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#23
Home away from home
Home away from home


Jersey City's real estate valuations can't be viewed in a vacuum. The strength of Manhattan (and Brooklyn) RE markets blows the crap out of all other federal, state and local variables.

Reval is irrelevant to them because it's still 2/3rd the cost.

Posted on: 12/15 10:08
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#24
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

jc201jc wrote:
I don't see a way that the increase in DTJC taxes in conjunction with the proposed changes to the federal tax laws will be offset by local market economics. The main reason that the RE market economics in DTJC have operated this way is because net expenses (principal + interest + taxes - tax shield savings) have made it attractive to purchase.

From a demand side, in 2018 you'll be paying significantly more out of pocket on a monthly basis due to the tax reval, and this pain will be magnified by also getting less $$ back at the end of the year from your tax return. This combined effect will have a marked downward effect on demand.

From a supply side - I'm assuming supply will not go down (i.e. they will not tear down any buildings) - if anything supply will increase as some people will not be willing or able to absorb such a dramatic increase in taxes, and will look to move to lower cost areas.

So you've got softening demand plus increased supply...seems to be a good predictor of lower average RE prices through 2018.


We shall see within 1 year if this prediction is correct. I have no doubt there will be several DTJC property owners that will be priced out of their homes but there will be twice as many Manhattan expats that will notice the bargains in Jersey City compared to similarly-sized homes in the city.

Posted on: 12/15 10:04
Top


Re: The solution to the parking shortage
#25
Home away from home
Home away from home


I hate to say this, but paid garage parking with an guaranteed spot or just uber everywhere. Folks that have to rely on street parking are just going to become more and more miserable as new citibike docking stations pop-up, lanes are closed due to construction staging, and population soars to due to all the tax-abated developments.

Posted on: 12/15 10:03
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#26
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Dolmoti is spot on. Tight inventory and high demand will soften the blow to DTJC RE in the short term. Longer term it's tough to say. 1.6% is less than I was expecting so frankly it could have been worse for DTJC.

The real issue is will DTJC buyers pay suburb level taxes for lousy city services (iffy schools). Trump's tax plan ain't making the case any easier. Taxes are sunk costs, owners aren't building equity with those payments.

My take is DTJC is overvalued as are stock markets and RE in general. I think if the other bubbles deflate DTJC will take it a bit harder than average. As always tough to know when or if other bubbles pop...


No one cares about schools. You're either living the life with no children or sending your kids to private schools if you can afford a $7,000 a month mortgage payment.

Downtown prices will continue to appreciate because they're still a bargain compared to New York City prices.

Posted on: 12/15 9:58
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#27
Home away from home
Home away from home


http://jerseycity.hosted.civiclive.co ... ily%20NBHD%20Analysis.pdf

JC Heights - Western slope to see 25% reduction on average
$6,580 avg tax bill from $8,845

Greenville to see 40-50% declines in average property taxes

Paulus Hook is screwed with 75% increase!

$16,591 to $29,026 in average property tax bill

WOW

Posted on: 12/14 15:36
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#28
Home away from home
Home away from home


Looks like non-condo owners are seeing the biggest tax benefits. Commercial properties look like the net losers.

The value of vacant land is much less than I thought it would be...

Posted on: 12/14 15:30
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#29
Home away from home
Home away from home



Posted on: 12/14 15:28
Top


Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#30
Home away from home
Home away from home


Quote:

dr_nick_riviera wrote:
Can someone explain the distinction between the Downtown section and the "12 UNITS OR LESS(Resi NBHDs)" on this document here?

http://jerseycity.hosted.civiclive.co ... ndo%20NBHD%20Analysis.pdf

Average increase for Downtown condos looks to be 30% but the "12 UNITS OR LESS(Resi NBHDs)" is about 10%. Does this mean that smaller, walkup condo buildings in Downtown can expect an increase of less than 30%?


FINALLY!!

1.62% ?!? Much higher than I thought, even though property taxes are going down. Makes to sense.

Posted on: 12/14 15:26
Top



TopTop
(1) 2 3 4 ... 25 »






Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!



LicenseInformation | AboutUs | PrivacyPolicy | Faq | Contact


JERSEY CITY LIST - News & Reviews - Jersey City, NJ - Copyright 2004 - 2017