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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I'm definitely in the pro development camp but... I'm happy the Katyn monument is staying where it is.

Some developer is thinking that the monument interferes with their yuppified vision for the area. That's too damn bad. Welcome to Jersey City.

Posted on: 12/23 4:20
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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A rare policy victory for Yvonne and her NIMBY minions. Unfortunately for her, more parking lots and young tech professionals are continuing to move into JC, to the extent that her and the NA are generally having much less of an influence over policy.

Posted on: 12/21 23:02
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I really don't care one way or the other about the statue itself, but I'm saddened by the victory of the "never change ANYTHING!!" forces. Whether it's this, Serra's Tilted Arc sculpture or graffiti on a Queens warehouse building, the expectation that public art is permanent will bode ill for anyone allowing art in public or private in the future. I actually have a wall that would look good with a mural, but I'd never allow it on my property if it meant I could never, ever change my mind.

Posted on: 12/21 17:59
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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It amazes me how people were up in arms about the statue getting moved over a few yards. It wasn't getting taken down nor was it getting placed somewhere it couldn't be seen.

Oh well...

Posted on: 12/21 16:04
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Humiliating defeat for Fulop.

Posted on: 12/21 14:32
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Does the developer get his $ back since his political contribution didn't pay out on this?


Posted on: 12/21 3:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Post-midnight, Jersey City council ends nine-month Polish statue mess. Finally.

JERSEY CITY — The Katyn statue controversy, which spanned nine months, was the focus of hours of clamorous public debate and caused a bit of an international incident between the mayor and the Polish Senate president, finally come to an end on Thursday at 1:16 a.m. when the City Council voted to … keep the statue exactly where it’s been for nearly 30 years.

It was the second time Mayor Steve Fulop’s now-scuttled plan to relocate the monument kept council members on the dais past midnight: a hearing at their June 13 meeting did not end until nearly 3 a.m. City officials were exhausted when the statue discussion began early Thursday, six hours after the council meeting began, and their frustration showed.

https://www.nj.com/hudson/2018/12/post ... -statue-mess-finally.html


Posted on: 12/21 3:22
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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That statue is not moving, so it is not a defeat. Plus, it vote could have been to move it. No one like to come out and vote in December, I like the this better.

Posted on: 2018/11/21 22:53
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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"That referendum was scheduled for a Dec. 11 special election. Bariso's decision means there will be no referendum, city attorneys told council members yesterday."

Ha ha ha, yet another humiliating defeat for Yvonne and thankfully the city doesn't have to waste 300k on holding an election on this pointless issue.

Posted on: 2018/11/21 21:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Judge's ruling puts vote on Jersey City's Polish statue in limbo

A Hudson County Superior Court judge on Friday threw another wrench into the proceedings surrounding the controversial Katyn monument in Jersey City when he nullified the City Council's June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the statue.

Judge Peter Bariso's Nov. 16 decision ends a lawsuit filed last month by an administration critic who alleged the ordinance was void because the city made improper changes to it before the council voted to adopt it.

https://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... ing_puts_vote_on_jer.html


Posted on: 2018/11/21 5:02
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Not to keep dragging this backup up... but I read an interesting response in Boston to a similar situation. Ray Flynn was one of the better Mayors of Boston over the last 70 years.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/colu ... rs_deserve_place_of_honor

Posted on: 2018/11/21 3:57
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne, I think you may have left too early; there was more action on this later that night.

Terrence sums it up nicely: https://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... _plan_would_stop_pol.html

"[After the motion failed] Over the course of the next few hours, there was a flurry of side conversations between council members and city officials, with some exchanging texts with an absent Fulop. At about 10 p.m., Fulop ally Councilman Daniel Rivera announced a deal: the council would re-consider adding an item to the agenda that would rescind the June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the statue, only this time there would be an amendment saying the statue would stay at Exchange Place "in perpetuity." That provision was enough to secure Boggiano's vote, the sixth needed to add the item to the agenda.

The council then took four votes: to reconsider voting on adding the item; to add the item to the agenda; to amend the item to include the "in perpetuity" language; and to introduce the ordinance. All four motions passed. A final vote on the measure could come as early as Nov. 20."

Solomon's outburst was something to behold.

Posted on: 2018/11/9 21:27
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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One legislature cannot bind a future one. Whatever one council can pass, the next can repeal. It's a stupid idea to think they can do that.

Posted on: 2018/11/9 18:13
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I was surprised the city council had a backbone last night and did not vote introduce the city ordinance repealing the removal of the Katyn monument. Because there was nothing in the language that stopped the administration from re-introducing this later. Since it was a last minute introduction, the ordinance needed 6 votes and only received 5. So it failed. The members of the city council said this was not fair to the Polish people, they did the required worked of gathering signatures so either they get their election in December or the city drops their claim. Dropping it without guarantees from the Fulop that he would not start this later bothered some of the council members.

Posted on: 2018/11/8 17:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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By Terrence T. McDonald tmcdonald@jjournal.com
The Jersey Journal

JERSEY CITY — The Fulop administration is backing off its planned relocation of the Katyn monument in an effort to halt an expected delay in a new payroll tax, according to an email obtained by The Jersey Journal.

Mayor Steve Fulop sent council members an email on Tuesday telling them his administration would ask them to introduce an ordinance Wednesday that would rescind its June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the monument from Exchange Place to York Street.

Fulop and his council allies had previously made the decision to let voters decide via a Dec. 11 referendum whether to approve the planned relocation, but the mayor told council members in his email he's worried that the same petition drive used to try to reverse the council's Katyn ordinance would be used to stop implementation of the payroll tax, a 1 percent business tax intended to help fund the local school district.

More

Posted on: 2018/11/6 19:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Posted on: 2018/10/25 14:49
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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However, when you go to this site last updated in 2015, York Street was one of those combined sewer outfalls when you zoom in on the map:

https://www.jerseywaterworks.org/our-w ... tives/csos-in-new-jersey/

Can anyone confirm whether or not this sewer outlet was decommissioned since then?

Posted on: 2018/10/9 18:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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CatDog wrote:
It's just water runoff, it's not like it's "sewage" in the traditional sense.

I didn't want the statue to disappear into some warehouse, but I don't mind that they're moving it. The Exchange Place plaza is in some desperate need of rework after all.


Alas, JC has a combined sewer system, but interestingly the York Street outlet is not one of those listed in the interactive map linked at the bottom of this page:

http://www.jcmakeitgreen.org/combined-sewer-system/

Posted on: 2018/10/8 18:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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It's just water runoff, it's not like it's "sewage" in the traditional sense.

I didn't want the statue to disappear into some warehouse, but I don't mind that they're moving it. The Exchange Place plaza is in some desperate need of rework after all.

Posted on: 2018/10/6 14:47
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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edgewordwise wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the proposed York Street location a sewer outlet?


Yes, it is, and that monument on the inside has some of the remains of bones from the victims of the massacre. So, it is inappropriate to have the Katyn monument moved over a sewer outlet.

Posted on: 2018/10/6 10:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the proposed York Street location a sewer outlet?

Posted on: 2018/10/5 23:53
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JCvoter wrote:
The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.


#facts


What is the meaning of "axis of mediocrity" in this context please?

Posted on: 2018/10/5 22:44
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JCvoter wrote:
The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.

#facts


The weird thing is that this topic predates the mayor saying he would move it. At least on this forum, it seems to be that it was split, leaning towards moving it - and getting two parks in exchange definitely tilted the balance towards moving it. I wouldn't be surprised to see this measure defeated in a vote though - since there's probably more people that don't care vs. people that seem to be super adamant against it (and not that many I'd think are strongly in favor of moving it).

And generally, in a representative democracy, we vote for elected officials to dictate these things - so yes, the mayor/city council (supposedly representing the "will of the people" and whatnot)

Posted on: 2018/10/5 22:17
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.

#facts

Posted on: 2018/10/5 17:35
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.


The statue is located in a busy commercial and recreational plaza where it stands every chance of being treated dismissively, which is not very respectful to the memory of the victims. I think it deserves better--a place where it can be more appropriately contemplated--but who is anyone to argue with your perfect understanding?

Posted on: 2018/10/5 14:18
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?


I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.



The original purpose was to create a large park in the area where it is and move it over a street. Seems like a no-brainer, but of course it's become much more complicated than that now that people pulled out their pitchforks and picked sides.

Posted on: 2018/10/5 14:04
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JSleeze wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?


I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.


Posted on: 2018/10/5 13:45
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?

Posted on: 2018/10/3 16:55
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Volga2112 wrote:
Eh, it does look grotesque, but I feel that it's somehow appropriate. I mean, it catches one's attention and looks as violent as what it's commemorating.

If I were to choose, I'd let the monument be. Some people don't like it ; tough shit, some people didn't like the Eiffel Tower and wanted it gone as well.


It is grotesque - but that is appropriate in what is a reminder of a horrific act of murder and betrayal.

Posted on: 2018/9/30 5:04
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.


Posted on: 2018/9/30 5:02
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