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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
You do not understand the implication of increasing taxes *radically high* for some overnight.

Those who receive an immediate tax reduction or no reduction from the tax reval, it will be short lived.

In the long run, they will subsequently lose some or all of such savings, permanently, in perpetuity, in the form of a higher tax rate and in turn a larger $ tax bill.



The foreclosure talk is scaremongering plain and simple. The only people who "might" be forced to sell are very recent purchasers of older properties who extended themselves to the max and have little equity to work with. But even if they've only been there 5 years they've seen enough appreciation to be able extract some for taxes, since vlaues have been rising at a rate many times the projected ~2% tax. Buyer of recently condoed or constructed property have little to worry about.

You sound like there's an alternative other than continuing the unfair taxation. There isn't. Even phasing it in is simply continuing to ask the overtaxed to subsidize the undertaxed.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 16:22
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
You do not understand the implication of increasing taxes *radically high* for some overnight.

Those who receive an immediate tax reduction or no reduction from the tax reval, it will be short lived.

In the long run, they will subsequently lose some or all of such savings, permanently, in perpetuity, in the form of a higher tax rate and in turn a larger $ tax bill.



Hopefully, the people who've benefitted from their taxes being 'radically low' will have banked some of their tax savings over that time.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 16:20
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You do not understand the implication of increasing taxes *radically high* for some overnight.

Those who receive an immediate tax reduction or no reduction from the tax reval, it will be short lived.

In the long run, they will subsequently lose some or all of such savings, permanently, in perpetuity, in the form of a higher tax rate and in turn a larger $ tax bill.


Posted on: 2016/5/25 16:11
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Tax lien sales do not happen over night; they happen once a year. Under collecting taxes even in one quarter can put a lot of fiscal strain on a municipality.

And those tax lien properties will eventually successfully appeal their taxes, lowering their tax bill. When they pay less, the rest pay more. And you will pay for the additional Reval-fallout cost of the city reviewing tax appeals, conducting tax lien sales, borrowing funds, etc.

The reval will *shock* real property values in a negative way. The total assessed value of J.C.properties will decrease. That means to maintain the same budgeted dollar amount of total tax revenue, it will result in an increase in the tax RATE for all. And many residents will lose their home to foreclosure.



You are just fear mongering and choosing to turn a blind eye to the flip side of what you predict. Just as some properties will see their value diminish (from an inflated valuation made possible by the unfair taxation in place, btw) there will be properties in other areas of town that will see their valuation rise as their taxes drop.


Posted on: 2016/5/25 16:10
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The reval will raise property values in the areas that are now overtaxed (and are more economically disadvantaged). The houses that lose value have been artificially supported by their low taxes over the years.

In any case, almost thirty years of Jersey City mayoral and councils kicking the can down the road will come home to roost-for some good, for some bad. All fair.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 15:37
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Tax lien sales do not happen over night; they happen once a year. Under collecting taxes even in one quarter can put a lot of fiscal strain on a municipality.

And those tax lien properties will eventually successfully appeal their taxes, lowering their tax bill. When they pay less, the rest pay more. And you will pay for the additional Reval-fallout cost of the city reviewing tax appeals, conducting tax lien sales, borrowing funds, etc.

The reval will *shock* real property values in a negative way. The total assessed value of J.C.properties will decrease. That means to maintain the same budgeted dollar amount of total tax revenue, it will result in an increase in the tax RATE for all. And many residents will lose their home to foreclosure.





Posted on: 2016/5/25 15:20
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stateaidguy wrote:


When someone does not pay property taxes, a lien is placed on the property. A third party buys the lien, that purchase money goes to the municipality, and then the third party has the right to collect the unpaid property taxes.

The municipality, school district, and county get their money.



There was a time (back when Schundler got elected) when the city couldn't sell some of their tax liens. I remember the city would package 'good' liens with the bad (i.e. combining liens from downtown with Greenville) in order to unload the bad ones to investors.

There was more to it than that.... I just can't recall all the details.

It would take one hell of an economic depression to get back to that level of 'bad' where the city liens became worth less than their face $$ value.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 13:12
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Post reval, the total city tax BILL will remain the same. However, the total amount of tax revenue COLLECTED will decrease. Why?

Because when your taxes go up 4xs, many will not be able to afford to pay and will not pay their tax bill.

Guess who will make up for that revenue shortfall - those whose tax bill initially decreased after the reval as well as everybody else.

Likewise, when real estate prices plummet due to sky rocketed property taxes, those other 400% increase property owners taxes will successfully appeal their assessed valuation. Lower assessed valuation means a lower tax bill for them.

However, the amount of money the city needs to collect in tax revenue to provide essential government services still remains the same.

Again, guess who will make up for that revenue shortfall - all other property owners, including those whose tax bill initially decreased after the reval.

Your assessed value may have decreased, but with property tax defaults/liens and subsequent tax appeals (many), your tax RATE will increase.

That's something to thing about, you know, one step ahead, when the all-at-once reval occurs.


You're right there will be chaos with fluctuating valuations, but when people cannot/do not pay their taxes there is no tax increase for everybody else.

When someone does not pay property taxes, a lien is placed on the property. A third party buys the lien, that purchase money goes to the municipality, and then the third party has the right to collect the unpaid property taxes.

The municipality, school district, and county get their money.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedi ... rty-taxes-new-jersey.html


Posted on: 2016/5/25 12:44
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Ralh, all the more reason why the city should take things in hand and institutionalize reverse mortgages with a a lien bonding plan as I have previously advocated upthread.

Basically the city would bundle property tax liens and sell bonds based on those liens to create cashflow and allow homeowners to stay in their homes till sale, at which time the lien + interest is settled, just like a reverse mortgage. The advantage of the city doing this is they stay in control, rather than leaving it to homeowners who may or may not be knowledgeable about these things. When people own $1m homes, there's simply no reason taxes can't be paid.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 12:15
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Post reval, the total city tax BILL will remain the same. However, the total amount of tax revenue COLLECTED will decrease. Why?

Because when your taxes go up 4xs, many will not be able to afford to pay and will not pay their tax bill.

Guess who will make up for that revenue shortfall - those whose tax bill initially decreased after the reval as well as everybody else.

Likewise, when real estate prices plummet due to sky rocketed property taxes, those other 400% increase property owners taxes will successfully appeal their assessed valuation. Lower assessed valuation means a lower tax bill for them.

However, the amount of money the city needs to collect in tax revenue to provide essential government services still remains the same.

Again, guess who will make up for that revenue shortfall - all other property owners, including those whose tax bill initially decreased after the reval.

Your assessed value may have decreased, but with property tax defaults/liens and subsequent tax appeals (many), your tax RATE will increase.

That's something to thing about, you know, one step ahead, when the all-at-once reval occurs.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 11:31
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Actually, Ralph raises a good point occasionally already raised, that is since we all agree prices on the under assessed will fall some amount due to increased assessments, the total levy will fall if there are enough appeals based on new lower comps. I don;t know if there's a plan for that, or it's "cross that bridge when we come to it". The process would be very slow in any case. All the more reason to do regularly scheduled revals.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 11:21
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Monroe wrote:
For the umpteenth time, taxes will not rise 2 or 4x after the reval. They will stay exactly the same, Jersey City won't see an additional cent in revenue.


I think Ralph was referring to an individuals property tax bill, and not the total tax's collected by the city.

Posted on: 2016/5/25 11:13
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For the umpteenth time, taxes will not rise 2 or 4x after the reval. They will stay exactly the same, Jersey City won't see an additional cent in revenue.

Tax allocation will be properly distributed-isn't the progressive mantra that everyone should 'pay their fair share'?

Posted on: 2016/5/25 11:02
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"The city's neglect results in a grotesque subsidy, from black to white, from poor to rich."

Only a quarter of the downtown population is white and blacks are in about equal proportion, there, too.

In this case the proper definition of a "subsidy" is when you consume more in government services than you pay, as in those "poor black" per race baiter Tom Moran being subsidized by the rich white folk of downtown.

RE: State busts Jersey City, Elizabeth for violating order to reassess properties

Post reval, when taxes increase 2 - 4xs over night, can we then bitch to those who push so hard for an immediate Reval (as opposed to a more sensible, one time phase in) about the tax RATE INCREASE for ALL property owners due to a a significant drop off in tax revenue collection attributable to many properties in default (tax liens) or successfully appealing their assessed valuation's due to a drop in their homes' market value?




Posted on: 2016/5/25 9:38
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most people that post here, while many times not cordial, and posters do rail on the problems of the city, seem to have a pride in Jersey City.

now, yesterday with these two headlines, does not one's stomach sink, and should something be done?

State busts Jersey City, Elizabeth for violating order to reassess properties

"Jersey City and Elizabeth have missed May deadlines to submit plans to comply with the April order that gives them until November 2017 to conduct revaluations," - so is Jersey City still stalling?

Where poor blacks subsidize rich whites, a remedy

"The city's neglect results in a grotesque subsidy, from black to white, from poor to rich."


Posted on: 2016/5/25 7:05
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The Republican Assemblyman behind the latest legislation is also the same guy who led the fight against the scourge of the red light cameras, which had nothing to with safety and everything to do with being another cheap revenue source. Declan O'Scanlon is a good guy.

Posted on: 2016/5/24 13:37
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(Excerpts noted - full article at link)

By Samantha Marcus | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com
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on May 24, 2016 at 7:31 AM, updated May 24, 2016 at 8:29 AM

TRENTON — The state Division of Taxation has declared two of the three municipalities forced to undergo property revaluations in violation of that state order, NJ Advance Media has learned.

Jersey City and Elizabeth have missed May deadlines to submit plans to comply with the April order that gives them until November 2017 to conduct revaluations, according to letters obtained by NJ Advance Media that the state sent the cities late last week...

...Dunellen submitted the required compliance plan, but Elizabeth and Jersey City did not meet the May 4 deadline to file a "proposed plan of compliance" that lays out dates for launching a revaluation and hiring an outside firm to do the work...

...Jersey City did not file a report, and instead on the day of the deadline requested an in-person meeting with state officials, noting that correspondence "shall confirm that the city of Jersey City is willing to take all necessary action practicable to comply with the April 4, 2016, order."

...In its response, sent Thursday, the Division of Taxation said it met with the city's (JC) municipal assessor two days before the filing deadline, and that city, too, is in violation of the order...

...Both cities have until the end of this week to comply or the state will "take action as we deem appropriate to ensure compliance," according to the letters...

...Jersey City spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill in April called the orders "Trenton politics at work because of the documented and rocky relationship between Mayor Fulop and Governor Christie dating back to Bridgegate..."

...Jersey City officials have since agreed to move forward with a revaluation, and Morrill said Monday that the city is simply "waiting for feedback and guidance" from the state.

Full Article

Posted on: 2016/5/24 12:42
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Amazing amount of ignorant, reactionary and racist comments on Moran's piece on NJ.com.

Posted on: 2016/5/24 12:31
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By Tom Moran | Star-Ledger Editorial Board
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on May 24, 2016 at 6:30 AM, updated May 24, 2016 at 6:58 AM
Jersey City has not updated the value of homes and businesses in town for 27 years.

That breaks the law, and for good reason. It means that booming areas of the city are paying less than their fair share of property taxes. In effect, the city is pretending its boom never happened, imposing taxes on the value of homes a generation ago.

Where did the boom happen? The hottest spots are the downtown and along the waterfront, the whiter and more yuppie areas of town. They are now being subsidized by the poorer neighborhoods, where more black and Latino families live.

The city's neglect results in a grotesque subsidy, from black to white, from poor to rich.

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Posted on: 2016/5/24 11:52
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user1111 wrote:
A Republican assemblyman has introduced a bill that would allow the state to withhold aid from towns that let their assessed value fall far behind their market value, a symptom of overdue revaluations, NJ Advance Media reported.
The state Division of Taxation has ordered three municipalities, including Jersey City, to undergo revals. Bayonne, East Newark and Harrison were recently ordered to undergo revals by the county taxation board.

In New Jersey, more than 30 municipalities haven't held reassessments in at least 25 years, and most are in Hudson, Union and Middlesex counties.

The proposed bill would require county tax boards to force a revaluation at a town's expense.

It would also give state officials the authority to remove from office any board of taxation member who "willfully or intentionally failed, neglected or refused to comply with the requirements."

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It shouldn't have to come to this, but it's needed to get the tax boards to do their jobs!

JC is still dragging it's feet on the reval it was ordered to do. The lost of state aid will get their attention.

Posted on: 2016/5/23 20:50
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A Republican assemblyman has introduced a bill that would allow the state to withhold aid from towns that let their assessed value fall far behind their market value, a symptom of overdue revaluations, NJ Advance Media reported.
The state Division of Taxation has ordered three municipalities, including Jersey City, to undergo revals. Bayonne, East Newark and Harrison were recently ordered to undergo revals by the county taxation board.

In New Jersey, more than 30 municipalities haven't held reassessments in at least 25 years, and most are in Hudson, Union and Middlesex counties.

The proposed bill would require county tax boards to force a revaluation at a town's expense.

It would also give state officials the authority to remove from office any board of taxation member who "willfully or intentionally failed, neglected or refused to comply with the requirements."

More

Posted on: 2016/5/23 16:00
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hudson57 wrote:
How difficult can it be to be transparent? Let's take a look at how it's done in other parts of the country. Here's an example from Florida:

http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/papa/A ... parcel=52424135040280020&

If you scroll down you'll see an "appraisal" section but also a link to "structural details". Clicking on "tax details" shows you where your money is being spent.

Wow!!! They are light years ahead in sleepy FL but in fancy, cocky North-East that's too much to ask for? Please....



EXACTLY. It is the same in Texas, btw. I sometimes find it amusing that NYers (and Northeasterners in general) have a smug, cocky attitude and look down upon much of the country as backwards or as less polished, but there sure is much done better outside of our region. And, going by recent trends, that is becoming increasingly known to people, as more and more people leave this area to go to FL, TX, TN and other states with better economies, much lower costs of living and better QoL for families.

Posted on: 2016/5/23 13:03
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How difficult can it be to be transparent? Let's take a look at how it's done in other parts of the country. Here's an example from Florida:

http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/papa/A ... parcel=52424135040280020&

If you scroll down you'll see an "appraisal" section but also a link to "structural details". Clicking on "tax details" shows you where your money is being spent.

Wow!!! They are light years ahead in sleepy FL but in fancy, cocky North-East that's too much to ask for? Please....





Posted on: 2016/5/23 12:21
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brewster wrote:
Personally, I'd say add the rolling reval,ie reset on sale. But that's controversial for reasons obscure to me, likely realtors hate it.


I agree Brewster. I recently exported the JC tax roll to Excel and filtered for vacant land that sold since 2010 for $50,000 or more. 437 properties were on the list with a total sales price of $916 million. Tax paid $2.5 million which is 0.26837%.

Posted on: 2016/5/23 10:08
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dtjcview wrote:
Cut out all the confusing statistical jargon. Simplify the process. Wouldn't even need a reval - actual sales and appeals could take care of that.


OK, so I see your point a little better now, and I do agree that systemic changes could and should be implemented. Never have I lived anywhere in the US where property taxes were levied in such an obfuscated manner. The valuations should be actual market value, as you point out, and the set municipal tax rate applied. All the other craziness (equalization rates, perpetually postponed revals, etc.) should be done away with and the process made simple and straightforward. I suspect that, at the end of the day, as with many such situations in NJS, this is a process that exists to justify its very existence. In other words, this is now a bureaucracy that exists because too much nepotism and corruption has been allowed to exist and no one wants the gravy train to come to a full stop.

Posted on: 2016/5/23 9:05
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Posted on: 2016/5/23 7:40
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..

dtjcview, trust me you don't want your taxes determined by Zillow's Zestimate! They don't even know which properties are multifamily...


A valuation provider like zillow, realtytrac or trulia would be plugged into the process. It's in their interests to collect, maintain and publish accurate property and tax data. There may need to be a one-off reval. Then after that appraisals can be done periodically - during transfers, improvements and appeals. The process would take care of itself - and accuracy of valuations are easy to track.

Streamlining the process would save millions in admin costs - not to mention cutting out a lot of political grift.

Posted on: 2016/5/22 18:46
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
You seem to be blaming everyone except the JC government for the reval mess.


I think there's plenty of blame to go around, and the JC govt has been excoriated at length in this thread. But the state (under both parties) and county are definitely complicit in this mess. Oversight failed. Any city can elect clowns or criminals to their city hall and we've had plenty of both. (and the White House may be in for a taste). But the higher levels of govt are "supposed" to be alert and enforce the laws. If the law says "reval every 10 years" and a city doesn't, the state could withhold any number of services or funds. But no one wanted to rock the boat, because there's ALWAYS an election coming, so here we are.

dtjcview, trust me you don't want your taxes determined by Zillow's Zestimate! They don't even know which properties are multifamily. The current system actually makes sense as long as the reval happens like clockwork. Personally, I'd say add the rolling reval,ie reset on sale. But that's controversial for reasons obscure to me, likely realtors hate it.

Posted on: 2016/5/22 17:16
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
...
You seem to be blaming everyone except the JC government for the reval mess.



I don't think JC is right on this. Certainly not under existing statutes. But as a homeowner - I deserve a clearer, more efficient and transparent process. And that violation of good government can only be solved by the state.

My tax bill should read:
- Oct 1st valuation from realtytrac|trulia|zillow = $100k
- Exempted/abated value = 0
- Taxable value=$100k
- Effective city tax rate=2%
- Taxes due 2017=$2k
- You can appeal if your property appraises below $85k
..submit appraisal to county tax board before April 2017

Cut out all the confusing statistical jargon. Simplify the process. Wouldn't even need a reval - actual sales and appeals could take care of that.

Posted on: 2016/5/22 17:09
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135jc wrote:
Why has NJ stated forcing cities to reval it's properties if it does not effect money sent to the state?


In theory, the reval itself should result in a net zero impact to city, county and state revenues.

This thread goes off in many tangents - particularly on abatements and school funding. The truth is - the state's budget is a huge mess, particularly in the areas of pensions and education funding. And there's a clear agenda (rightly or wrongly) to push the state's growing budget deficit on to municipalities.

The NJ push to force revals is mostly politically motivated - but for me - it only spotlights the serious structural issues that can only be fixed at the state level.




You have it backwards; the avoidance by the towns, in some cases for decades and decades, has been political. The state is merely enforcing the existing statutes, starting with the most egregious offenders.


And who ultimately is responsible for setting and enforcing the rules on revals? The state created the mess in the first place. They also made property tax and revals incomprehensible to the average homeowner - and that's the only reason there isn't an angry JC mob burning down city hall.


You seem to be blaming everyone except the JC government for the reval mess.

Posted on: 2016/5/22 16:31
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