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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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nyrgravey9 wrote:
Empirical!! Show your work!! Strawman!!!!

Or some other unintelligible retort. You're right, this is much easier than counter arguing with valid points. I like it.

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Pebble wrote:
The UK has national healthcare. I've a friend with a prosthetic limb over there and she receives faster treatment than those that I know with one here. It's anecdotal but so is every single link saying that Canada's healthcare is slow and poor.

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MDM wrote:
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JoeGee wrote:
Why are things so much better in Canada then they are here although they pay higher taxes??? O I know, they don't have a bunch of criminals stealing all our money and spending it on Global warfare.


It's not better. Canada developed medical tourism years ago due to very long waiting times for certain procedures. When I lived in VT, the private clinics near the border in Burlington had a majority of their patients from places like Montreal.

There was even cases of years back of people going to vets offices to get MRI work done because the wait times were so long. A dog in Canada got faster treatment.

Right wing "public policy" groups want to get rid of national healthcare and have "research" to prove why it's bad? Color me shocked!


I did state that my example was anecdotal. Already, we?ve seen articles linked that point out how the GOP examples are poor at best. The starter of this thread has expressed his story. There are stories out there of people benefiting. I honestly don?t think we have the full scope of what the ACA has on all of us just yet.

Posted on: 2014/2/7 17:15
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:

Amen to that! I have read, and re-read, the CBO report and what I get out of it is that it's those people who remain in the workforce mainly to get employer sponsored health insurance, or just to afford health insurance, who will be leaving the workforce. Thus the 2 million plus reduction in "workers". Which sounds to me like a good thing,.


Oh, you only learned about just a small part of the picture! Let me tell you the rest of the story. But first, you should sit down, because what I am going to tell you presently will indubitably leave you speechless.

Here comes: you have never heard about this, but it is true, - not only some people work to buy insurance, but also there are others, who work to buy food. Clothes. Transportation. Rent. And lots of other things.

That would be me.

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Now, if only we could give everyone free food, clothes, cars, iPhones and apartments, - nobody will have to work no more! That must sound to you like a good thing, yes? We will liberate people from the need to work!

No-one is saying anything about not having to work, the issue is - should insurance/healthcare be a driving motivation to work? IMO, no. Take me for instance - I currently have a job with excellent insurance, doing something I love (historic preservation), but have been interested in setting up a historic preservation consulting business with a friend. We think we have an excellent business model, good contacts and mentors, and excellent people skills to run our own consulting firm. The main reason our reluctance to follow our dream? Giving up our current insurance coverage, which will never be available in a "free market". The issue is, and the CBO report addresses, the lack of health care options results in a less mobile, static, workforce.
Quote:
P.S. Here is something to think about; you are probably planning to retire with some Social Security pension, Medicare and whatnot, correct? Of course, you "paid into the system". Unfortunately, you also voted for various politicians who took that money that you paid from the system and spent it on various programs that you liked. In order to get something from the system, you now need the next generation to pay into it. Now, for all the marbles, the question of a lifetime. What do you think is in your best interests, - to have an increasing labor force where everyone is encouraged to work more, - or to have a shrinking workforce, where people are trying not to overstep some income limit lest they lose their subsidies?

Again, all of the above - that's my situation. What is best for me, as is for everyone else IMO, is a more mobile workforce - not being tied to a job because of the insurance, but being able to take risks, make thta move when you see something you would love to do.

Posted on: 2014/2/7 17:11
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hero69 wrote:
the same people who argue that obamacare willmake people lazy andd not want to work are the same people in favor of tax breaks for the ig oil cmpanies. ironic!


Link please? I certainly don't feel that way. But remember that under Obama the stock market has been terrific, making loads of dough for the 1%ers, yet real unemployment (counting those who've given up looking) is off the charts, food stamp spending has doubled, and the those in the poverty level are at record highs.

Who has Obama been looking after, after all? With his SOTU speech he went after job creation-isn't that the same guy who appointed a jobs czar and council a few years ago, that only met once or twice, lol?

Posted on: 2014/2/7 13:55
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hero69 wrote:
the same people who argue that obamacare willmake people lazy andd not want to work are the same people in favor of tax breaks for the ig oil cmpanies. ironic!


Nobody said anything about being lazy. We are talking about our government creating a poverty trap, and huge financial incentive not to work. And, coincidentally, nobody said anything about any tax breaks for one special industry. (This kind of cronyism is actually a Democrat MO, - to pick and choose which industry or which firm deserves a break, or a subsidy).

This is one of the most transparent strawman I have ever seen.

On the other hand, I think we can agree that this is the best argument in your dwindling arsenal (me agreeing with you on this by the way, is what you can really call "ironic"). Now, when CBO told us that Obamacare is not going to reduce the number of Americans without insurance, - now that we know that is much more expensive and that many are going to lose an access to their doctors. Now, that we know that it didn't solve any of the problems it was advertised to solve, and that it created many new ones... Moreover, now that we know it was build on massive lies and is (and likely forever will be) the biggest consumer fraud in the history of the USA, - what else could you do, but strawman?





Posted on: 2014/2/7 13:29
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the same people who argue that obamacare willmake people lazy andd not want to work are the same people in favor of tax breaks for the ig oil cmpanies. ironic!

Posted on: 2014/2/7 5:43
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:

Amen to that! I have read, and re-read, the CBO report and what I get out of it is that it's those people who remain in the workforce mainly to get employer sponsored health insurance, or just to afford health insurance, who will be leaving the workforce. Thus the 2 million plus reduction in "workers". Which sounds to me like a good thing,.


Oh, you only learned about just a small part of the picture! Let me tell you the rest of the story. But first, you should sit down, because what I am going to tell you presently will indubitably leave you speechless.

Here comes: you have never heard about this, but it is true, - not only some people work to buy insurance, but also there are others, who work to buy food. Clothes. Transportation. Rent. And lots of other things.

Now, if only we could give everyone free food, clothes, cars, iPhones and apartments, - nobody will have to work no more! That must sound to you like a good thing, yes? We will liberate people from the need to work!



P.S. Here is something to think about; you are probably planning to retire with some Social Security pension, Medicare and whatnot, correct? Of course, you "paid into the system". Unfortunately, you also voted for various politicians who took that money that you paid from the system and spent it on various programs that you liked. In order to get something from the system, you now need the next generation to pay into it. Now, for all the marbles, the question of a lifetime. What do you think is in your best interests, - to have an increasing labor force where everyone is encouraged to work more, - or to have a shrinking workforce, where people are trying not to overstep some income limit lest they lose their subsidies?


Posted on: 2014/2/7 4:28
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Empirical!! Show your work!! Strawman!!!!

Or some other unintelligible retort. You're right, this is much easier than counter arguing with valid points. I like it.

Quote:

Pebble wrote:
The UK has national healthcare. I've a friend with a prosthetic limb over there and she receives faster treatment than those that I know with one here. It's anecdotal but so is every single link saying that Canada's healthcare is slow and poor.

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

JoeGee wrote:
Why are things so much better in Canada then they are here although they pay higher taxes??? O I know, they don't have a bunch of criminals stealing all our money and spending it on Global warfare.


It's not better. Canada developed medical tourism years ago due to very long waiting times for certain procedures. When I lived in VT, the private clinics near the border in Burlington had a majority of their patients from places like Montreal.

There was even cases of years back of people going to vets offices to get MRI work done because the wait times were so long. A dog in Canada got faster treatment.

Right wing "public policy" groups want to get rid of national healthcare and have "research" to prove why it's bad? Color me shocked!

Posted on: 2014/2/6 19:15
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Let's of criticism in this thread, little of it constructive. Anyone have any ideas on how to tweak or change the ACA/employee supplied/Medicare/Medicaid system we are heading towards?

Amen to that! I have read, and re-read, the CBO report and what I get out of it is that it's those people who remain in the workforce mainly to get employer sponsored health insurance, or just to afford health insurance, who will be leaving the workforce. Thus the 2 million plus reduction in "workers". Which sounds to me like a good thing, since if insurance is not tied your job or the need to pay for it out of your own pocket, those jobs are freed up for younger workers, career changers, etc.

I have also read - and need to re-read - the Republican Senator's 'white paper' on CARE, their alternative to ACA. It seems to me that moving away from any mandates is a bad idea, as creates more gaps in the nation's coverage "net". IMO, though, capping the exlusion of an employee's employer-provided health coverage makes sense, provided the income stream went back to Medicaid or hospitals, and the caps are specifically for high amenity type plans.

Posted on: 2014/2/6 19:02
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am i supposed to be upset that 2 million people will choose not to work because of obamacare? it's sad that some elderly will decide that they are better off staying home or that some women will decide to stay home and raise the children.

Posted on: 2014/2/6 18:39
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Let's of criticism in this thread, little of it constructive. Anyone have any ideas on how to tweak or change the ACA/employee supplied/Medicare/Medicaid system we are heading towards?




Posted on: 2014/2/6 14:36
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The UK has national healthcare. I've a friend with a prosthetic limb over there and she receives faster treatment than those that I know with one here. It's anecdotal but so is every single link saying that Canada's healthcare is slow and poor.

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

JoeGee wrote:
Why are things so much better in Canada then they are here although they pay higher taxes??? O I know, they don't have a bunch of criminals stealing all our money and spending it on Global warfare.


It's not better. Canada developed medical tourism years ago due to very long waiting times for certain procedures. When I lived in VT, the private clinics near the border in Burlington had a majority of their patients from places like Montreal.

There was even cases of years back of people going to vets offices to get MRI work done because the wait times were so long. A dog in Canada got faster treatment.

Right wing "public policy" groups want to get rid of national healthcare and have "research" to prove why it's bad? Color me shocked!

Posted on: 2014/2/6 14:19
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CBO report: The reduction in CBO?s projections of hours worked represents a decline in the number of full-time-equivalent workers of about 2.0 million in 2017, rising to about 2.5 million in 2024. Although CBO projects that total employment (and compensation) will increase over the coming decade, that increase will be smaller than it would have been in the absence of the ACA

Obama: The CBO?s projected reduction in full-time workers, then, ?shouldn?t be a significant cause for surprise and it reflects the fact that workers have a new set of options and are making the best choices that they can choose to make for themselves given those options,?

Yay! The CBO makes people to choose not to work! New set of options! Now you can work less and get more! It's an option!

Funny, I was born in the country where the ruling regime established an almost perfect income equality. No matter where you worked your income was of the same order. And it almost didn't change depending on how hard you worked. Eventually, as pre-revolutionary habits died off, the people stopped making any efforts and the economy collapsed. And all the promises of the guaranteed pensions collapsed with it. 1991, USSR.

Obama decided to take this one step further, - ACA makes sure that for millions of people hard work leads to an actual reduction in compensation as their total income goes down when they lose subsidies.

Think about it for a second. Our government's running the biggest financial pyramid scheme there ever was, - and they are perfectly happy to learn that what they did would reduce the labor force?

The country's in the very best of hands.

P.S. Now that we created a 20,000 dollar high poverty trap, small prediction: in a short few years you will read in the New York Times an accusatory article about how the income of the working poor stopped increasing and social mobility collapsed. About how lots of people are unable to break through and more and more earn just under four times the poverty level. And Professor Krugman will explain that this is because of too little socialism and all those horrible Republicans who obstruct the passage of the Affordable Food Act.


Posted on: 2014/2/6 12:30
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BergenHill wrote:
This is a myth that gets passed around. I lived in Canada for many years. The healthcare was top notch. The only procedures that you had to wait for were elective. I also had and have several friends who lived under that system and had no desire to get rid of it.

What is true, however, is that a very large share of personal debt in this country is medical debt. That, largely, does not exist in Canada.


Krugman & Canadians

MP Belinda Stronach, opponent of the private medicine, goes to the US for treatment

No room at the inn: overcrowding in Ontario's emergency departments

Canada's Expectant Moms Heading to U.S. to Deliver


Posted on: 2014/2/5 23:58
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This is a myth that gets passed around. I lived in Canada for many years. The healthcare was top notch. The only procedures that you had to wait for were elective. I also had and have several friends who lived under that system and had no desire to get rid of it.

What is true, however, is that a very large share of personal debt in this country is medical debt. That, largely, does not exist in Canada.

Posted on: 2014/2/5 14:50
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MDM wrote:
...

We are stumbling towards a third world underground economy.


Stumbling towards? I'd say the US underground economy is already bigger than all world economies outside the G8...

Posted on: 2014/2/5 14:17
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JoeGee wrote:
Why are things so much better in Canada then they are here although they pay higher taxes??? O I know, they don't have a bunch of criminals stealing all our money and spending it on Global warfare.


It's not better. Canada developed medical tourism years ago due to very long waiting times for certain procedures. When I lived in VT, the private clinics near the border in Burlington had a majority of their patients from places like Montreal.

There was even cases of years back of people going to vets offices to get MRI work done because the wait times were so long. A dog in Canada got faster treatment.

Posted on: 2014/2/5 14:05
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Why are things so much better in Canada then they are here although they pay higher taxes??? O I know, they don't have a bunch of criminals stealing all our money and spending it on Global warfare.

Posted on: 2014/2/5 13:49
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As more and more mandates and taxes increase the actual cost to hire someone, you will see less growth in employment. You can't force a business to pay more than what a job is worth.

Plus what new jobs are created, many will be cash under the table, which is how countries like Greece operate. We are stumbling towards a third world underground economy.

Posted on: 2014/2/5 13:43
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Obamacare to encourage some low earners to work fewer hours, Congressional report says

By Bloomberg News
on February 04, 2014 at 9:32 PM, updated February 04, 2014 at 9:47 PM

Obamacare will reduce the total number of hours Americans work by the equivalent of 2 million full-time jobs in 2017, the Congressional Budget Office said, sparking renewed Republican criticism of the law and a fresh defense from the White House.

The total number of hours worked will fall about 1.5 percent to 2 percent from 2017 to 2024 as a result of the health-care overhaul, the CBO said today in a report. The reduction, about twice the agency?s estimates in 2010, is due ?almost entirely? to low-wage employees who may choose to give up extra hours of work to avoid losing subsidies or tax advantages under the law, the report said.

full piece nj.com ...

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/ ... html#incart_river_default

Posted on: 2014/2/5 13:22
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nyrgravey9 wrote:
I never said republicans weren't pro life. I said abortion will never be illegal in this country.


Who said "illegal"? You can't make it illegal, there is a Roe v Wade.

Fortunately, Obama taught us how to work around it. It turns out, the government has an unrestricted power to levy taxes on anything it wants - like "not having medical insurance". And the Supreme Court agreed. So, instead of making abortions illegal, the Congress can tax them instead. According to the Supreme Court, that would be perfectly constitutional.





Posted on: 2014/2/5 4:55
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I never said republicans weren't pro life. I said abortion will never be illegal in this country. Everything your posting points to difficulties, etc., but it is still 100% legal to get one in this country.

The second Roe v. Wade is overturned, I'll march on Washington with you. I promise.

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Quote:

nyrgravey9 wrote:
no ones taking away your abortions. They're just asking you pay for it yourself....

C'mon, man.

The majority of Republicans are pro-life, and have been for years.

Resized Image

Opposition to abortion has been a routine part of the GOP platform for years. Republicans elected to office are all but required to be pro-life.

It seems to me that the moderate, pro-choice Republicans are leaving the party, and becoming Republican-leaning independents.


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Abortion will never be outlawed. Never. Ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Abortion opponents are doing everything they can to outlaw it. States like Texas are passing laws with the intentional purpose of making abortion unavailable -- e.g. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/arc ... abortion-in-texas/283045/

Posted on: 2014/2/4 19:53
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Posted on: 2014/2/4 19:45
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Posted on: 2014/2/4 19:32
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Posted on: 2014/2/3 18:13
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Posted on: 2014/2/3 16:12
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Posted on: 2014/2/3 6:10
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nyrgravey9 wrote:
no ones taking away your abortions. They're just asking you pay for it yourself....

C'mon, man.

The majority of Republicans are pro-life, and have been for years.

Resized Image

Opposition to abortion has been a routine part of the GOP platform for years. Republicans elected to office are all but required to be pro-life.

It seems to me that the moderate, pro-choice Republicans are leaving the party, and becoming Republican-leaning independents.


Quote:
Abortion will never be outlawed. Never. Ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Abortion opponents are doing everything they can to outlaw it. States like Texas are passing laws with the intentional purpose of making abortion unavailable -- e.g. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/arc ... abortion-in-texas/283045/

Posted on: 2014/2/2 18:19
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There are plans under $200. If you are under a certain age, you are allowed to buy catastrophic plans only. Basically accident insurance.

If you go to a site like Esurance.com you can pull on up by entering in a fake birth data that puts your age in the 20's to early 30's.

Posted on: 2014/2/2 16:03
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user1111 wrote:
Just signed up for UnitedHealthCare, $190.00 a month no co pay, and no referrals needed. You just have to shop around. I been shopping for 4 months. There are good plans out there you just have to do your homework. Good Luck everyone!

Unfortunately, the nondisclosure agreement that you signed forbids you to provide a link, or any other explanation of how that said plan can be found, right?


Posted on: 2014/2/2 14:13
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silver plan blue cross/ blue shield plan

5k individual deduction 10k family

2 adults early 50's
2 kids


Posted on: 2014/2/2 13:46
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