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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
 
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"The truth shall set you free." Hmmmmmm..... and who's version of the truth are we to believe?
www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gunownership.htm
Posted on: 2008/2/5 18:12
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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It's silly to think that exercising the right to own a LEGAL firearm means that the streets of JC will erupt in duals by gun slingers. The whole point is that the right to bear arms in self-defense comes with a heavy responsibility. The penalties for mis-use are justifiably severe. As has been pointed out, hunters that own firearms in JC have not precipitated mass bloodshed over neighborhood disputes. As for that "large amount of criminology research," most of it points to exactly the opposite conclusion gun haters espouse. Case in point: an August of 2007 study by American criminologist Don Kates and Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, which shows NO correlation whatsoever between civil gun ownership and murder or suicide rates. Check it out at: www.law.harvard.edu/students/o ... No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf The truth shall set you free.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 16:08
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Newbie
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My point is that most of the people in this country are idiots or @$$holes and that I would NOT LIKE them walking the streets with a gun just because they are paranoid. Many gun owners are responsible, know proper gun safety and have a cool head, but many do not. Looking at the general population of this country, I THINK it would be safer if they didn't have a gun in hand. someone mentioned that they wanted resources to actual accounts or where the information comes from, so I help you out a bit. ;) J
Posted on: 2008/2/5 15:14
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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Cities in the rest of the "civilized world" don't have "urban problems including a high crime rate" like us. They don't have the history that we do. They have racially homogeneous societies.
I have been in "inner cities" in Europe and never seen one that is as unsafe as the safest parts of Jersey City.[/quote] London: 7 million - 29% immigrants Paris: 2.2 million - 20% immigrants Berlin: 3.4 million - 13.9% immigrants Amsterdam: 1.4 million - 31% immigrants Not so very homogeneous after all.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 15:10
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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Nobody is advocating handing out guns like candy. Convicted felons, the mentally ill and the like are already prohibited from obtaining a firearms license. But what about the rest of us--the law-abiding, sane and rational folks? Most people are no more likely to shoot their neighbor than they are to brandish steak knives against one another. The fact that we are in an "inner city" seems, if anything, to make the case for more deterrents, not less. Of course, a responsive police force is a big part of the answer. (How about more cops walking beats instead of randomly roaming around in cruisers?) But we shouldn't discount self-defense as an active deterrent. After all, chances are better-than-average that the dealers and other criminal elements are packing illegal (read: unregistered) heat. So where does that leave the rest of us? Sitting ducks.[/quote]
About the steak knives: Not really. Most people will more easily trigger a gun than push a knife into another's body. It's about detachment from the crime. Otherwise, there would be more knife killings than gun killings. And if we respond to criminals having guns by arming ourselves with them as well, then haven't we surrendered to them? It's not Dodge anymore. The day I feel so threatened that I have to have a gun in my home will be the day I move somewhere else. That day is not nearly on the horizon.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 15:06
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Not too shy to talk
 
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Quote:
My point is that most of the people in this country are idiots or a$$holes and that I would not like them walking the streets with a gun just because they are paranoid. Many gun owners are responsible, know proper gun safety and have a cool head, but many do not. Looking at the general population of this country, I think it would be safer if they didn't have a gun in hand. I know several people that own guns and they use them to hunt game, not humans. THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE. Statistics show that you will kill yourself or a loved one before you kill a armed robber. The gun owners I know would never consider walking the streets with a gun on their side. To top it off one had his house broken into and all 20+ guns were stolen and are now on the streets. Good times. When I wrote of police having "extensive training", I refer to the total training, not just how to point, pull the trigger and hit a target, but how to use professional judgment of when a firearm is necessary. All drivers have to take a written and practical test in order to be able to drive. To get a gun all I have to do is not drool on the counter. Sorry again for getting off topic.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 5:15
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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Care to cite any of this voluminous amount of criminology research? I'd love to see it. Which sources from Brewster's numbers above are you questioning? Call me crazy, but I like to see numbers. And all those numbers have footnotes with verifiable sources. And those numbers are pretty persuasive. Quote:
As soon as somebody tosses in an "it is obvious..." without making reference to any hard evidence, you know the rest of the argument is going to rely on unverifiable anecdote, which Jeebus' does: Quote:
Posted on: 2008/2/5 4:18
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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There is a large amount of criminology research that has shown that allowing law abiding citizens to carry either decreases crime or at worst has no effect. The very argument that you make was made before Florida enacted a "shall issue" concealed carry law yet crime went way down afterwards. It is obvious that those inclined toward crime are made less likely to do so when a potential victim may be armed.
I suspect that you have little experience with people who legally own and carry firearms. In my experience, those who do so are much more careful to avoid putting themselves in a position where they would be involved in a violent confrontation than the average person. You are also more than a bit mistaken in terms of your faith in the police having extensive firearms training above and beyond those who have a carry license. My father was a police officer and qualifying with a handgun amounted to hitting some stationary targets a couple times a year. Some cops practice on their own time but in general they are as much all over the map as private gun owners. Nevertheless, their having firearms is a huge deterrent to criminals and most cops never have to shoot at someone. It's mostly about deterring rather than shooting, and this is even more true of private gun owners. Quote:
Posted on: 2008/2/5 3:41
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Home away from home
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Yes, lets use statistics rather than anecdotes, however futile arguing this with you might be. You and other fearful gun toting folks are like someone building a house in the valley bottom out of fear of lightning, only that a flood is far more likely, just like its far more likely your gun will hurt someone you know rather than an assailant. And note that half of all gun deaths are suicides, over 900 per year are children. * In 2004, 29,569 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths ? 11,624 (39%) of those were murdered; 16,750 (57%) were suicides; 649 (2.2%) were accidents; and in 235 (.8%) the intent was unknown. 6 In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.7 * For every firearm fatality in the United States in 2005, there were estimated to be more than two non-fatal firearm injuries.8 * In 2004, firearms were used to murder 56 people in Australia, 184 people in Canada, 73 people in England and Wales, 5 people in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden.9 In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,344 in the United States.10 * In 2005, there were only 143 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States.11 * For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting [note that every self-defense is legally justifiable] there are 22 criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings.17 * The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.18 * The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.19 source
Posted on: 2008/2/5 3:08
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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My sympathy to the woman, it's always easy to talk sitting in your chair in front of a pc how you would have done differently to prevent this. Real situation as it happens is quite different...
Same thing happened to my parents a months ago in pa. 2 african americans were hiding in the bushes outside their garage and robbed them at gunpoint after they came home from a new year party. Thank god noone was hurt. They live in a nice area where neighbors usually leave their doors open in the summer etc..just to tell you it can happen to anyone at anytime. It's not so much material loss, but the emotional damage caused, my mom especially were so distraught as she never had to deal with something like this. Anyways now my dad keeps 2 guns, and they are looking to sell the house and move to a high rise condo.
Posted on: 2008/2/5 0:27
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Just can't stay away
 
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I lived in Europe for quite some time. I'm tird to death of the idea we seem to have here that Europe is a paradise. It isn't. The eastern banliues in Paris suck. I don't know how Brixton is now, but in the 80's it was a dump. Skalka in Prague is disgusting. As for "homogoneity"- Ferencvaros in Budapest is a shitehole, and no cankicker, they don't many black people there (or what else did you mean by "homogenous"?) The "inner cities" of places like Amsterdam or Ghent are tourist showcases. Most of the crap is in the outying districts. Europeans generally just as criminal minded as we are. And they are, in the main, usually far more racist.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 23:17
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"Contemplate this upon the Tree of Woe."
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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The old Yoshihiro "Me No English" Hattori chestnut, eh? Let's see that dates from when exactly? Ah, yes, 1992. For every foreign exchange student who doesn't understand the word "freeze!" (and presumably never saw a single Hollywood action film), there are tens of thousands of incidents every year where law abiding citizens save their lives when confronted by gun-wielding criminals in their homes and neighborhoods. This is a favorite from an admittedly radical fringe publication for right-wing nuts called The New York Times... September 9, 2006 Woman in a Wheelchair Shoots an Attacker By ANAHAD O?CONNOR and SARAH GARLAND As muggings go, it began like many others. A 56-year-old woman was leaving her building in her wheelchair, her only company the small dog perched on her lap. Her attacker came from behind, the police said, and there was no one else around. But this attempted robbery had an ending unlike many others. As it turns out, the would-be victim, Margaret Johnson, has a permit to carry a .357 handgun ? and she carries it often. The mugging ended seconds after it began, the police said, when Ms. Johnson pulled out her gun and shot her attacker in his arm. Last night, the man accused of the attempted mugging, Deron Johnson, 45, was in stable condition at Harlem Hospital Center with a gunshot wound to his elbow, the police said. He was under protective custody and is facing a robbery charge, the police said. Ms. Johnson, who was treated at a local hospital and later released, said she suffered bruises to her neck and arm. ?I?m tired, I?m really tired,? she said as she sat in her apartment last night, wearing a tan baseball cap and appearing rattled. ?He tried to mug me, so I shot him.? Friends and neighbors said they were not shocked to learn that the woman known to scoot around her building with her small dog had held her ground. Tio Frederick, 26, a lawyer and neighbor who has known Ms. Johnson for 20 years, called her amicable but tough and spunky. ?I wouldn?t assume that if she got mugged she would let someone just take her stuff,? she said. The encounter began about 3 p.m. on a sidewalk behind 470 Lenox Avenue in Harlem, the building where Ms. Johnson has lived for more than 20 years. The building has a doorman and many of its residents are professionals, but neighbors have recently complained about robberies. Yesterday, as is often the case, friends said, Ms. Johnson had her small bichon with her, and was going to a nearby firing range. As she rolled out of the building, a man approached, and Ms. Johnson tried to say hello, said Lynell Bunce, 40, a friend who spoke with Ms. Johnson afterward. ?She found him walking by, and she was going to say, ?Good afternoon,? ? Ms. Bunce said. Instead of returning the greeting, the man looked away and walked past her without saying a word, Ms. Bunce said. Seconds later, Ms. Johnson felt an arm grab her violently from behind, tearing at her pocketbook and her necklace. The man managed to get the necklace, but Ms. Johnson refused to let go of her pocketbook, the police said. As the man choked her and struggled with her, Ms. Johnson pulled out her gun and fired a single shot. The police said that Ms. Johnson did not have a criminal record and was not facing any charges. The permit she has for her gun allows her to have it in her home and to transport it to a range, which is what she was doing, they said. The man accused of attacking her, Mr. Johnson (no relation), was described by the authorities as a ?robbery recidivist,?? with nine previous arrests. He spent several years in prison for criminal sale of a controlled substance, and he was released in February 2003, according to Department of Correction Records. Last night, Ms. Johnson was in no mood to celebrate what she did, friends said. Ms. Bunce, a longtime neighbor, said Ms. Johnson was frightened and threatened never to walk her dog again. ?She was very much the victim,? Ms. Bunce said. ?She was scared for her life. She?s devastated.?
Posted on: 2008/2/4 22:41
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
Joined:
2005/9/21 13:53 Last Login : 2015/8/5 3:20 From Jersey City Heights
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i am curious to know what places you mean when you say "civilized societies" that are much safer... do you mean the Balkans (and their decades of ethnic cleasing)? or France, where just about annually for the last few years Muslim youths riot for one reason or another - last summer destroying over 10K cars? Or maybe Italy where corrupt industries refuse to pick up trash? or maybe Germany, where even though being a nazi is illegal, there is still racial violence frequently between young whites and minorities?
do tell! i'm interested in finding this utopia!
Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:30
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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Paris Riots Underscored by Cultural Tensions
Rioting in Paris NPR Nov. 29, 2007 November 29, 2007 ? A string of riots in suburban Paris is making headlines following the death of two teenage boys. Emma Charlton, a reporter for Agence France-Presse (AFP), talks about the ethnic and cultural tensions that have led to the violence and what efforts are being made to restore order. Link Here Quote:
There are problems all over the world Just google "ethnic racial tensions riots" - click here
Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:27
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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Hey, remember this one! This gun owner sure knew what to do to trick or treaters! Guns in America kill tens of thousands each year, very few of which are perps in action. Grief Spans Sea as Gun Ends a Life Mistakenly http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage ... 63BF932A15753C1A964958260 Seeing the Halloween decorations at the Peairs house, they stopped and knocked. Mrs. Peairs answered and, startled, quickly shut the door. She called for her husband to get his gun, according to the sheriff's office. The boys walked to the carport door, where Mr. Peairs appeared with a gun. He told them to "freeze." But Mr. Hattori did not understand. He spoke little English. "He don't know what the hell freeze means," Colonel Barnett said. Mr. Hattori kept moving toward Mr. Peairs, who shot him at close range.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:13
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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Excellent point made,theres no other place like this is the rest of the civilized world and for the mere fact that most populations tend to be Homogeneous in nature, i.e. everyone's on the same page when it comes to being civilized and respecting one another . CK
Posted on: 2008/2/4 21:08
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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Cities in the rest of the "civilized world" don't have "urban problems including a high crime rate" like us. They don't have the history that we do. They have racially homogeneous societies. I have been in "inner cities" in Europe and never seen one that is as unsafe as the safest parts of Jersey City.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:53
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Newbie
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I found a similar story that happen in Las Vegas, except this one had a different ending.
Quote: Police say 'good guys won' in home break-in, shooting
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:34
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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This is going to seem like a pedantic and beside-the-point argument, but it's very unlikely that this was the work of crack addicts or dope fiends. Those kind of hard drugs tend to weaken and emaciate people and predispose them toward the lowest-risk sneak thieving kinds of crimes. I used to live next door to a crack house and the only thing the crackheads were ever able to do was distract us once and make off with a bike left on the front porch. We were a bunch of average-sized guys and they were afraid of us. It's hard to imagine them kicking down any doors.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:23
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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Nobody is advocating handing out guns like candy. Convicted felons, the mentally ill and the like are already prohibited from obtaining a firearms license. But what about the rest of us--the law-abiding, sane and rational folks? Most people are no more likely to shoot their neighbor than they are to brandish steak knives against one another. The fact that we are in an "inner city" seems, if anything, to make the case for more deterrents, not less. Of course, a responsive police force is a big part of the answer. (How about more cops walking beats instead of randomly roaming around in cruisers?) But we shouldn't discount self-defense as an active deterrent. After all, chances are better-than-average that the dealers and other criminal elements are packing illegal (read: unregistered) heat. So where does that leave the rest of us? Sitting ducks.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:21
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Home away from home
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Of course. People who apply logic to this situation, combined with knowledge of past crimes in the area, are actually being deluded by a psychological "defense mechanism". People who think that the victim can do nothing to influence their own safety, and that these things are always entirely random, are actually the correct ones. Utility workers never tip off their criminal friends to residences with valuables inside. Comcast techs are paragons of human decency.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 20:11
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Quite a regular
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Using your line of reasoning, we would have an entirely different problem than criminals breaking down doors. It would be the numbers of dead or wounded children victimized by gun-owning residents. How many of those to whom you would allow gun ownership do you think are drunks, addicts, or border line maniacs? In any inner city area the numbers are staggering. And how will you counter? By saying that they must be sure to lock up their firearms? How about making sure they're of sound mind before they reach for their weapon. Get real. Arming the citizens is surrendering. Fighting for safe neighborhoods is a lot saner. Yes, the story is horrible. And so is your response.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:35
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Just can't stay away
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You're absolutely right. Let's get on Healey!!
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:10
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Not too shy to talk
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On the subject of people carrying concealed handguns...
Believing that having "law abiding citizens" walking around the streets armed would make us all safe is a fantasy. People get in arguments all the time in congested urban areas like ours. I do not believe that most "law abiding citizens" with a gun would be able to control themselves in an altercation with another. Even in a simple argument, a person carrying a gun would be more belligerent knowing that they have a gun at their side. I don't trust human nature enough to allow a bunch of "law abiding citizens" to be armed on the streets. To many idiots have not broken the law and that is your only qualification for owning a gun (besides age and mental defect). I don't mind cops with guns because they have extensive training. If you want a gun in your house... fine, whatever, I don't care. Be responsible. Just don't shoot me through the wall while you are cleaning it. Sorry to get off topic.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 18:09
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Home away from home
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I have lived in the area for 20 years. The underpass by 10th. and Monmouth/Coles allows quick escape for criminals who want to prey on home-owners and pedestrians. They can quickly flee toward Hoboken or any of the major highways in that area. That area is under-lit and virtually deserted at night. Even during the day it has a foreboding feel to it when the streets are empty. The traffic goes unpoliced as cars speed through the area and run stop signs. Once again I must state, I NEVER see the Police making traffic stops in the downtown area. Meanwhile those cut through streets provide the perfect place for the cops to filter out the bad guys as they speed into and out of the area. Also, let the cops work the traffic stops with 3 to 4 officers so they have an added sense of security. I am not talking roadblocks. These drivers provide ample excuses for the cops to stop and search because they usually speed or run stop signs. We need a pro-active Police force. Healy HATES the downtown people because we are on to his BULLS**T.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 17:56
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Home away from home
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Was in Dave's Sporting Goods last week and he was showing me this pistol that actually fires reall ammo without the projectile (bullet). This thing looks, weighs and sounds like the real thing, with smoke, flame and the cartridge ejecting - only problem is, if the invaders pull out a real gun...
Posted on: 2008/2/4 17:36
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Home away from home
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2007/6/27 22:27 Last Login : 2012/4/20 14:33 From Hamilton Park
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Quote:
Why would burglars wake up the homeowner? I would think that most burglars' objective would be to get in, steal some valuables and leave undetected. Quote:
A black sports utility vehicle doesn't sound like something local crackhead would be driving.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 17:30
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Not too shy to talk
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Gun control does NOT work. Who do you think you're controlling? Criminals? NO! Gun control takes guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. (who have to go through extensive background checks). Criminals buy illegal weapons.
Gun control ensures that law abiding people don't have guns. Criminals will ALWAYS find weapons. I can't believe that after reading this horrible story someone would actually take the position that this person doesn't have the right to defend herself.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 17:14
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Author, Dream-weaver, Visionary, plus Actor
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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Just can't stay away
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This is such a frightening story. I have an alarm, but I am on the first floor, and this sort of thing keeps me up at night. I hope everyone is ok. But, yes, 2 kicks by a strong guy will break-down a regular door. A steal door is your safest bet. For, we, renters...barricade the door AND WE NEED TO INUNDATE HEALEY WITH LETTERS AND COMPLAINTS AND WHATEVER WE HAVE TO DO TO GET HIIM TO HIRE MORE POLICE!!!!!!!!!!! True, JCPD are the worst! But, if there were more of them walking around, this sort of thing would be curbed. You wouldn't believe the statistics of where JC stands in terms of having a properly staffed police force for the size and crime ratio...And, Healy canNOT cry poverty...Please. With all of these builders!!! Where's the money going, Jeremiah??......If anyone rings my bell or bangs on my door at night when I'm home alone with my son, I'm calling 911. I don't care if it is a Charity collecting money at 11 pm....Come on! Best case, it's a drunk neighbor locked out or kids ringing for fun. Worst case, it's something like this or someone in trouble on the street. Better safe than sorry. And, there's lots of junkies and back there past 10th & Coles by the factories/the Shelter. I think these guys are not from anywhere down here, but still. Be careful over there.
Posted on: 2008/2/4 16:45
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Re: Violent Home Invasion - Coles & Monmouth
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I believe there is someone posting on this thread that know the family that went thru this horrible ordeal. Could that person contact me. I would like to help out.
Thanks John johnrr1975ATyahooDOTcom
Posted on: 2008/2/4 16:30
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