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Re: GUN CONTROL, GUN RIGHTS LET'S HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE
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Home away from home
 
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MDM, all good points. However, I will still stand by my assertion that if a person has a pipe or gun my chances are better with a guy swinging a pipe.
All kidding aside, removing the gun equation like it is in the UK, Japan or Australia in my lifetime is not likley but we need to at least consider a gradual decline or it will only get worse. We really need to discuss ways to ween ourselves from our obsession with firearms. None of us need assault rifles or huge caliber pistols. In general I have used the United Nations Global Study on Homicides from 2011 for my information. A few more stats from thier findings below..... http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-a ... _on_homicide_2011_web.pdf "The homicide rate in the Americas is, at 15.6 per 100,000, more than double the world average, while, at 17.4 per 100,000, Africa has the highest rate among all regions, although it also has the largest uncertainty range due to large discrepancies between criminal justice and public health data. Asia falls between 2.4 and 4.3 per 100,000, and both Europe and Oceania also fall below the global average at 3.5 per 100,000, respectively." "Most Western and Northern European countries have long been among those with the lowest homicide rates in the world, yet, paradoxically, violent crimes and drug offences have increased in many European countries since the early 1990s. This may be partly due to changes in the lifestyles of European youths, including changes in their consumption patterns of drugs and alcohol (heavy episodic or ?binge? drinking, for, example) and the emergence of new street gangs based on ethnic minority or immigrant group affiliations. There are indications that these developments have an impact on increased street violence and hospital admissions. Such a discrepancy between violent crimes and homicide could be due, in part, to the lack of availability of firearm. "Only 27 per cent of homicides are committed with a firearm in Western Europe as opposed to 65 per cent in Central America and 74% in the USA. In contrast, sharp objects such as knives account for a greater proportion of violent deaths in European countries (36 per cent) than the Americas (16 per cent), while the use of any weapon accounts for 90 per cent of homicides in the Americas but for only 57 per cent of homicides in Europe."
Posted on: 2012/12/17 4:07
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Just can't stay away
 
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So you're calling the US "civilized"?Quote:
Posted on: 2012/12/17 4:04
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So, even though their violent crime rate is 25% higher than ours, your chances of getting murdered here is 4x that in the UK. You find this comforting?
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... intentional_homicide_rate
Posted on: 2012/12/17 3:38
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Re: GUN CONTROL, GUN RIGHTS LET'S HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE
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Home away from home
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Suicide rate in the UK is over 100% higher than the USA for 15 - 24 year olds... Lack of guns don't stop people from voluntarily meeting their maker. Does getting beaten to death with a length of pipe make you any less dead than if you got shot? Are you willing to trade having a lower chance of getting raped, murdered, robbed just to have a lower statistic of having those things done with a gun? Do you believe we could eradicate guns from the hands of criminals? Will that demand not be met by the black market? Has prohibition of drugs kept them out of the hands of those who want them? Why would it be different for firearms? BTW: with the exception of NJ and a few other states, it is legal to actually defend yourself with force in this country. Put on one side all the accidental and homicide deaths from firearms on one side. Then compare it to all the people who were saved by being able to defend themselves and their property by using a firearm. The latter will far out weigh the former. This the reason concealed carry is now the law in 40+ states and stand-your-ground laws (you don't have to run away from a violent criminal) are now in force in 21 states. Back to the topic of demographics again.. Compare similar communities in Europe, Canada, and the USA. By similar I means same / similar racial makeup and relative income levels and see who has worse rates of violent and property crimes. The results might surprise you.
Posted on: 2012/12/17 3:12
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MDM, I am not proporting to be an expert on crime stats as I get my info from the internet like most of us. However, the fact still remains that we have far more gun related homicides, suicides, crimes and accidental deaths in the US then any other civilized Western country.
Further, I will glady take my chances with someone wielding a knife or fists versus a gun any day as would any one in the UK or the world for that matter.
Posted on: 2012/12/17 2:54
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You might want to look into those stats a bit more. The UK violent crime rate is running about 4x that of the United States. So if you are a UK cop, your chances of getting shot is less than in the USA. However, if you are a UK citizen, your chances of getting mugged, raped, stabbed, beaten to a pulp, set on fire, etc.. is much, much, much higher than in the USA. In 2009, just about every major Western country in Europe had a much higher overall violent crime rate in the USA. As well, as a much higher rate of non-violent felonies (i.e. burglary). If the people on Jclist REALLY want to get into this debate... and I mean a really honest debate on the issue of violent crime, you are going to end up in the taboo realm of discussing demographics.. It is demographics that determines how violent or peaceful a community is; not availability of weapons. Somehow I expect the moderator will shut down such debate, as it will pretty much poison the forum for discussing more mundane city issues: tax rates, trash removal, drunk city officials, barking dogs, sewers emptying into basement studio apartments, etc...
Posted on: 2012/12/17 2:04
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If anything, I hope this horrific CT shooting will open the eyes of parents who do own firemarms and who think they have seemingly normal children. If that mother would have lived imagine what she would be going though?
Posted on: 2012/12/17 1:11
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Home away from home
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Yes, very true Brewster. When will the masses wake up a realize that thousands of deaths and suicides and tens of thousands of gun related injuries should not be the status quo?
Yes, JamesBeard, there are millions of guns here and a lot of deranged souls but why aren't the numbers similar (per capita) in other Western countries? My guess is that guns are hard to come by and therefore less murders are committed. Here's a factoid that will amaze most Americans: There were only 3 police officers killed by firearm in England and Whales from 2001-2011. 3! For a person like me who has lived in 3 major cities and have seen dead people on the street, not to mention read and listened to the news detail thousands of murders over my lifetime that stat is simply unfathomable. Isn't this the perfect time to come together and talk about this?
Posted on: 2012/12/17 0:59
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Yes, because determining who's crazy enough to be locked up is so easy, and we take preemptively depriving someone of their liberty so lightly. Watched "Minority Report' too many times? Psychotic mental illness can be quite stealthy. Schizophrenia & bipolar disorder usually emerge in young adulthood, and can be masked by all the other changes in young lives. It often looks like they're just stressing out at college. Not to mention most mentally ill are no danger to anyone. It sounds to me like the shooter in CT had some undiagnosed psychosis issues as well as the Aspergers. His mom may have been too preoccupied with her own struggles to realize. 81905, your number is low, because that's just homicides, there's twice as many suicides. And lets not forget a couple of hundred thousand nonfatal woundings. While I suppose most are minor I'm sure plenty are life changing.
Posted on: 2012/12/17 0:11
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Just can't stay away
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Too late. Guns are here to stay.
Your only hope is to bring back the mental institutions and lock up people that exhibit crazy violent behavior.
Posted on: 2012/12/16 19:54
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GUN CONTROL, GUN RIGHTS LET'S HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE
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Love to hear other peoples thoughts on this.....
I have family and friends on both sides of the isle on this topic as do most people in the USA. The ones who are steadfast on their 2nd Amendment rights always say it's not the gun, it's the shooter or that if the gang related death by firearm quotient was removed our homicide by firearm stats would look like any other Western country. The other side looks at countires like Japan, Australia and England who have a fraction of our deaths by firearm per capita. They argue that guns are not readily available there and that those countries do not have a gun culture verging on obsession like we do and therefore deaths by guns are very, very low. No matter how you view the gun rights laws in the USA I really hope this is a watershed moment for Obama and Congress to really address the issues. All eyes are on him. We need to put everything on the table, looking at other Western, civilized countries whose gun laws are working, question the NRA and it's stangle hold on congress, really disect the 2nd amendment and ask are certain assult rifles and massive caliber hand guns really a necessity? Would stricter gun ownership laws like Japan be the way forward? We need to question how gun shows operate and how TV/movies, video games and music plays into all of this. Why are kids taking to the gun to get even or make a statement? How our schools teach kids about violence and guns, how can parents, particularly in improvished areas where guns are the norm, take action on this epedimic. The list goes on and on..... I firmly belive this is a societal issue that needs a seismic shift in our core beliefs and thoughts towards firearms. The way the media portrays these cowardly murderers for days is simply ridiculous. The minutia that gets spat out as the days go on and on is exactly what these killers wanted as most of them have had no voice. A gun and multiple killings, especially at an elementary school, gives them that voice. The anti-hero is born again and again. We should demand serious national debates on this. 12K firemarms death per year no matter the per capita rate is totally unacceptable.
Posted on: 2012/12/16 17:46
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Newbie
 
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Here's the thing about guns and crime and what we have been seeing in the news lately. These mass shootings? The people doing them are getting the guns and ammo legally. They are not career criminals with contacts to get black market guns. They are buying the stuff online with no problems or getting it in some local store.
Personally, I don't see a problem with licensing for guns and banning military grade weapons from civilian use. For operating heavy machinery there are licenses and tests. For using legal controlled substances there are restrictions. Why is it so bad to have controls on weapons?
Posted on: 2012/8/6 2:59
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
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Restoring the assault weapons ban would be a good start. And every person who owns a gun should be required to apply for a license to use it. We require licenses to operate a car why not guns. Of course the NRA and the Republicans will obstruct any meaningful laws. They still foresee an apocalyptic future where all those guns will be necessary to fight a repressive US government. OY !!! 
Posted on: 2012/8/5 19:12
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
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2006/11/8 20:49 Last Login : 2022/4/26 19:42 From Chilltown, NJ
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I think a better question for this debate would be what type of gun control laws do all of you anti-gun people want?
I think no matter what side you are on everyone can agree on harsher sentences for criminals committing gun crimes.
Posted on: 2012/8/5 14:27
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
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Quote:
 "A man concealed in an Arabic garment and brandishing an assault rifle robbed the Galaxia International Services Inc of $31,216 on Saturday, according to Jersey City police." http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... g_arabic_garment_bra.html "Jersey City police returned an assault rifle to the police station after finding a group of four men walking around the streets toting the gun." http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ty_police_confiscate.html "In an unrelated case, FALCON team members also executed a search warrant on a residence in Mercer County that revealed a virtual armory of weapons, including three SKS-type assault rifles, one AR-15-type assault rifle, one M50 rifle, three 100-round drum magazines, approximately 10,000 rounds of assorted ammunition, and approximately 150 additional firearms." http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releas ... tion-falcon-58220667.html "Four spent .380-caliber rounds were found at the crime scene. A .40-caliber Glock handgun was also found in the car, police said." http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... id=243842#forumpost243842 "A black Glock 30.45 caliber with an extended magazine was under the driver's seat in one vehicle and a Ruger-serial No. 239 was found in the trunk of the other, police said." http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... id=223377#forumpost223377 "A search of the residence turned up a Glock 9mm with the hollowpoint rounds, about $800, and suspected drugs that included 191 bags of heroin, 141 bags of suspected cocaine and one bag of marijuana, reports said." http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... id=179612#forumpost179612 "On the stand today she said the three took a walk with the weapons and when they came across the couple unloading gifts from their car, Shiquan Bellamy ordered them to the ground and fired a shotgun blast at Muchioki's head. She said he turned to her and said ?You want to shoot a gun. Shoot the (expletive) gun.?" http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... id=293463#forumpost293463 "Two Jersey City women in their 20s were pushed to the ground and robbed at shotgun-point yesterday morning, police reports said." http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y_women_robbed_of_de.html "Two Jersey City felons with extensive records were arrested after police doing surveillance at the Arlington Gardens housing complex found them with a shotgun Tuesday, officials said yesterday." http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... id=277198#forumpost277198 Now all the articles above are proof your average street criminal can easily get these weapons. So what makes you think a determined person can't? These guns being illegal didn't stop them from getting them why would it stop him? As for the ammo that is the easiest of them all to get, it isn't even a challenge. Quote: CatDog wrote: I already made clear the same guns aren't hard to get. I do not get why it is so hard to understand it easy to obtain guns illegally if anything it is easier because gun stores have business hours and care about laws. Years are you serious? People get out of prison every day and can get a gun in no time. Did you really think it took them years to get them? It is also funny you say "unless they're really dedicated" because people responsible for mass murders are the most dedicated people when it comes carrying out their plans.
Posted on: 2012/8/5 14:14
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
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2006/5/10 16:36 Last Login : 2023/7/18 1:45 From Hamilton Park
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The Jersey Journal actually publishes nonsense like the article at the top of this thread? Who do they get to write it? Is it bought in from somewhere? Why don't they stick to covering local stories [badly]?
Robin.
Posted on: 2012/8/5 7:21
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this thread makes me feel embarrassed to consider myself socially liberal.
I'm sending a check to the NRA today. If the country is filled with ppl like those posting here, I'm going with the less of 2 evils. I'm still waiting to hear how criminals care about gun laws.. btw I'm all for increasing the penalties on those who break the current laws against violent gun crime. significantly. just seems more logical to punish the guilty party and not the 99% of gun owners that don't commit violent crimes.
Posted on: 2012/8/3 15:48
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Home away from home
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Quote:
You should put this to music.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 20:09
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Home away from home
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2012/1/11 18:21 Last Login : 2019/12/26 15:30 From GV Bayside Park
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Is it at Journal Square now? There is one up the road here in GV on Danforth and Old Bergen :)
Posted on: 2012/8/2 19:32
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Home away from home
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2005/12/18 2:57 Last Login : 2017/9/14 20:15 From Crystal Point
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I was taken with this statement and inspired to purchase a gun. Does anyone know where I am supposed to turn in my FP ID application? Is it at Journal Square now?
Posted on: 2012/8/2 19:09
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Home away from home
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The problem when we talk about ?gun control? is that the discussion is usually limited to the formality of law and the availability of firearms, but there are other significant factors that promote aberrant behavior. Our attitude toward firearms is an inextricable component of gun control as well. While American gun laws are often irresponsibly permissive, we also promote value systems that serve to perpetuate their misuse. Worse, too many of our values have the obvious potential to negatively affect the mental health of our citizens, and people who commit random homicide rarely seem to enjoy a sound mind.
?Spend. Buy gadgets. Own a large television. Enjoy the creative efforts of others, not your own. Own a home. Stay there. Own a car. Drive that mile, don?t walk. Don?t leave the country. Forget your roots. Eat garbage. Drink sugar water. Take your pills. Work! Be popular. Be enviable. Impress people. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Ignore the 500 pound gorilla in the room. Dominate your environment. Worship heroes. Support the troops. Reach for the new American Dream. Reach for the filthy lucre. Keep up with the Joneses. Check their status on Facebook. Do it now! Don?t interact with strangers. Speak loudly if you want to be heard. Be entitled to anything you want. Breed. Drive defensively. Think about money. Trust enormous corporations. Think about money some more. Fear losing your job. Fear losing your home. Fear terrorism. Fear socialism. Fear taxes. Fear democrats. Fear the reaper. But don?t be a victim. Buy a gun. Protect yourself. Protect your family. Guard the homestead. Show them who?s boss.? No wonder we're nuts.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 14:54
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Just can't stay away
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2011/5/25 20:27 Last Login : 2021/1/14 12:53 From Hamilton Park
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I love all you people who knows what its like to buy a gun. Its the same here in NJ as it is in Texas. You go to a store, you fill out the paperwork, they call the FBI, the FBI says ya or nay and you walk out the store. Its the same across the country. Now the talk about gun shows, well that is almost the same across the country. Heres how; private sales of guns is allowed in every state, the only thing is here in NJ they don't allow a group of people to come to a designated area and sell their guns but if I put out a classified add and someone calls then its ok. Some states have permits but all the permit does is the same the FBI background check does except take a few more days to process but once you have the permit its the same as any place else. And all this talk about automatic weapons, you can't buy them since the 1920's, now they are semi automatic, which means one round per one press of the trigger.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 14:07
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Most of the guns used for crimes in the northeast are not bought in the northeast, where gun control laws are strict. While it would be great if we could build a wall with checkpoints at the Delaware River crossings, we can't. As a result, the states with lax gun control laws funnel guns into states with stricter laws. The only way for gun limits to actually work is on a national level and limit guns as they enter the country as interstate commerce has no border control or customs agents.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 13:24
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Also let's not forget that while there are tons of illegal guns in the US, where do those guns come from? The US. There aren't back-alley gun manufacturers in the US, they're all being produced by US gun manufacturers, who sell them to gun stores or shows, who sell them to criminals. Can you control ever secret transfer of guns? No, but most guns in this country do go through businesses that have to answer to the law. So it's not like it's an impossible problem.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 13:06
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Quote: So your argument is that gun control would have prevented the shooter from acquiring guns? How so? The idea that someone like this will find a way to do it anyway is dumb. They might, but unless they're really dedicated, they're going to have a damn tough time. And even if they were going to get them illegally anyway, so what? We should make it EASIER? Quote: You're comparing murder rates based on one factor, gun control laws. Could there be other factors, perhaps? Quote: This is anecdotal evidence, at best.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 13:01
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Your implication is that a lack of gun control caused this tragedy. I'm not sure how you can prove that? Quote: True, but it's a lot harder to kill 12 people with a knife than it is an automatic weapon with a 100-bullet clip. It's also harder to get into a stupid argument at a party and kill someone with a knife. So your argument is that gun control would have prevented the shooter from acquiring guns? How so? Quote: According to the Chicago Sun-Times, over Memorial Day weekend 12 people were killed by gunfire and 45 were shot and wounded. In the time it takes to play a major league soccer match (90 minutes), 13 people were shot. By mid-June, murder was up 35 percent from last year with 228 people killed. Statistically speaking, our troops are safer in Kabul, Afghanistan than in Chicago. Where was that story in the national news?WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG You're comparing murder rates based on one factor, gun control laws. Could there be other factors, perhaps? Quote:
This is anecdotal evidence, at best. Quote:
How does this support that we need more gun control?
Posted on: 2012/8/2 2:40
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So... shut it, I guess?
Posted on: 2012/8/2 2:27
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There is no doubt that every citizen has the right to bear arms.
There is no doubt as to what the founding fathers meant and thus the NRA does not spend millions every year lobbying politicians. Does not accept millions from gun manufacturers and does not need to mobilize their millions of members to follow them blindly unto the breach. Oh wait...
Posted on: 2012/8/2 2:18
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I understand you didn't write this Stringer. It was written by someone else, but still.
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This is true. It also won't bring back the victims of Columbine, or Virginia Tech, or Fort Hood, or Binghamton, or.... I really don't understand this logic at all. It's in the past so we should accept it? That's stupid. No amount of regulation is going to bring back the money lost during the Lincoln Savings & Loan crisis, but that doesn't mean we should have just ignored what caused it. Quote: If every last gun was shipped across our borders fast and furiously, murderers would still find a way to kill. Quote: According to the Chicago Sun-Times, over Memorial Day weekend 12 people were killed by gunfire and 45 were shot and wounded. In the time it takes to play a major league soccer match (90 minutes), 13 people were shot. By mid-June, murder was up 35 percent from last year with 228 people killed. Statistically speaking, our troops are safer in Kabul, Afghanistan than in Chicago. Where was that story in the national news? 435 people were murdered in Chicago in 2010. At 2.7 million that's a murder rate of .016% Kabul has 3 million people, and over 1,700 people were killed in the first HALF of 2010. Their murder rate is about .09% or 6 times higher than Chicago. The stupid stat that often gets cited as "Chicago is more dangerous than Kabul" only includes US Soldiers killed in Kabul. Which is a stupid measure and incomparable. Quote:
Quote: Gun control activists have it all wrong because they make incredibly naive assumptions about human nature. Given the chance others were packing heat in theater number 9 at the Century 16 in Aurora, Colorado; the story may have ended much differently for the cold-blooded killer. Seriously? Really? How many mass-shootings has this stopped, ever? Has there been a single case of a mass shooting in the last 50 years being stopped because someone else was packing? We have had dozens of these freaking things in the past few decades, and not once do I recall a single one ending with "and it's a good thing someone else in the space had a gun and shot him right away, because he would have killed more." Stop it with that stupid trope. It doesn't help. Let me put you in a room with a man unloading an automatic rifle, with a pump-action shotgun and two handguns, and smoke grenades, and teargas. Let me see how your senses work in that confusion, and see if you can stop him.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 2:17
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Of course this country can restrict guns. They are restricted on airplanes. It takes guts another word for courage to restrict automatic guns. I hope our politicians are listening.
Posted on: 2012/8/2 2:14
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