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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Turns out the approved Journal Square 2060 plan already calls for a streetcar on JFK/Bergen Ave and BRT on Sip Avenue.

Obviously unfunded still but I wonder what other documents the city has on the issue.


Quote:
The Plan envisions a narrow-gauge streetcar line that runs in a dedicated right-of-way
along Kennedy Boulevard, Journal Square and Bergen A venue. This streetcar system is a
criticai north/south component of a comprehensive transit network designed to service
Journal Square and surounding neighborhoods. A streetcar system wil ensure that new
and existing developments along Kennedy Boulevard and Bergen A venue have
convenient access to the Journal Square Transportation Center and proposed extensions
of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail in the Bergen Arches. The Redevelopment Plan
recommends that a streetcar run from the intersection of John F. Kennedy Boulevard and
Route 139 to Bergen Avenue at McGinley Square (see Map 6). During the development
of a streetcar system, a dedicated bus lane should be implemented along the streetcar
right-of-way. All stops should be permanent and substantial in nature. A transitional bus
along the streetcar route can help establish a riding habit among Journal Square residents
and encourage transit appropriate development along the eventual streetcar corridor. The
streetcar may be extended in the future to service additional neighborhoods as part of a
comprehensive bus rapid transit system for Jersey City.

Posted on: 2016/2/20 22:00
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Quote:

MDM wrote:
All of those options I see turning JFK blvd. into a traffic hell during the morning and evening rush.

Back in the 1920s, When cars became more numerous, is when the trolleys went into decline. It was the store owners that pushed to get rid of the trolleys. They turned the streets into a traffic nightmare, which affected shoppers ability to reach the store. Another factor was that buses were cheaper to run than the trolley system (upkeep of rails, catenary, etc.).

The trolley got a reprieve in WWII because with the Empire of Japan running wild in the Pacific, there was no rubber available to make tires. Buses had their rubber wheels replaced by steel ones. They then used the trolley tracks. Not many cars on the road due to gas rationing.

The only practical way I see the light rail extended is to elevate the train or tunnel underneath. Both are possible.. assuming the money is there.

On a side note: I would actually support raising the gas tax for transportation if there was some way to keep the legislature and the executive branch from raiding the transportation trust fund for non transportation purposes. It is the raids that have bankrupted the fund.


That and prevailing wage constraints and corruption. Why do NJ road projects cost 2X more than the closest state, and 8X the national average?

Of course, no one ever went to jail over the 6 billion dollar school building (New Jersey School Construction Corporation) boondoggle and financial shenanigans.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 21:09
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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All of those options I see turning JFK blvd. into a traffic hell during the morning and evening rush.

Back in the 1920s, When cars became more numerous, is when the trolleys went into decline. It was the store owners that pushed to get rid of the trolleys. They turned the streets into a traffic nightmare, which affected shoppers ability to reach the store. Another factor was that buses were cheaper to run than the trolley system (upkeep of rails, catenary, etc.).

The trolley got a reprieve in WWII because with the Empire of Japan running wild in the Pacific, there was no rubber available to make tires. Buses had their rubber wheels replaced by steel ones. They then used the trolley tracks. Not many cars on the road due to gas rationing.

The only practical way I see the light rail extended is to elevate the train or tunnel underneath. Both are possible.. assuming the money is there.

On a side note: I would actually support raising the gas tax for transportation if there was some way to keep the legislature and the executive branch from raiding the transportation trust fund for non transportation purposes. It is the raids that have bankrupted the fund.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 20:20
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Quote:

nafco wrote:
This is a LRV or PATH Proposal I made for my thesis a few years back that would connect all the west side of JC to SI and potentially the City. Included were street mockups which allowed for street parking on off-peak hours like other major thoroughfares already do. Of course its cost prohibitive but theres no reason the city cant implement a plan like the Select Bus service which runs North-South in Brooklyn with limited stops in an articulated bus. It resembles a light rail at a fraction of the cost. With a dedicated lane, this would improve reliability and speed like it already has proven to in Brooklyn.




Good project - critical to future plans to better integrate JC into the metro area transportation network (if something like this were actually to happen in the near future, I would stay in the Heights instead of planning to move to JSQ) - the lack of a direct rail connection to Manhattan is a huge drawback to the future of the Heights. I'm curious about a few things:
- who was on your review committee? Where there any local stakeholders, or local planning experts?
- how well was your proposal received?
- did you conclude whether the PATH or LRV equipment was the better platform?
- the SI section seems to cut straight across roads and properties - was the premise to use exclusively existing ROWs?


Thanks! This was intended as more of a PATH line but the shear expense then changed the scope to half tunneling through SI and into Manhattan obviously and most of Hudson Cty being on grade (hence the JFK Boulevard street study). There would be no eminent domain or manipulation of existing street grids. I think it has been received well, but not something to spark enough interest to ever get off the ground. Still fun to do though.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 19:58
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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nafco wrote:
This is a LRV or PATH Proposal I made for my thesis a few years back that would connect all the west side of JC to SI and potentially the City. Included were street mockups which allowed for street parking on off-peak hours like other major thoroughfares already do. Of course its cost prohibitive but theres no reason the city cant implement a plan like the Select Bus service which runs North-South in Brooklyn with limited stops in an articulated bus. It resembles a light rail at a fraction of the cost. With a dedicated lane, this would improve reliability and speed like it already has proven to in Brooklyn.


Good project - critical to future plans to better integrate JC into the metro area transportation network (if something like this were actually to happen in the near future, I would stay in the Heights instead of planning to move to JSQ) - the lack of a direct rail connection to Manhattan is a huge drawback to the future of the Heights. I'm curious about a few things:
- who was on your review committee? Where there any local stakeholders, or local planning experts?
- how well was your proposal received?
- did you conclude whether the PATH or LRV equipment was the better platform?
- the SI section seems to cut straight across roads and properties - was the premise to use exclusively existing ROWs?

Posted on: 2016/2/19 18:40
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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elsquid wrote:
There's another HUGE reason why these things don't get built.

You've already noted that the car culture is an obstacle because it hangs on to virtually free street parking space, and utterly free street driving space, like grim death, leaving little room for any other mode in existing right-of-ways.

But it also saps the demand, real and projected, for mass transit.

The streetcar companies knew they could could win public and governmental approval for building their systems, and could then attract riders, because the inland alternatives were walking or horse carriages. Even when cars came in, at first they were for only the wealthy few and not much competition.

Anyone who wants more mass transit in JC needs to make hard choices to move us at least a little closer to that environment again at the same time. We have to stop shoveling so much public money into subsidizing driving and private car ownership.

We should start by doubling the residential parking permit fee to $30, and signaling that it will go up incrementally in the future. That would begin to recoup some of the true cost of our massive street parking giveaway of prime publicly owned and maintained land.

But it would also help create a bigger constituency for the mass transit projects that the city actually needs, and increasingly will need, as it grows.



This. Limiting subsidies for parking and drivers commits residents and commuters towards other transit-options. We should have the goal of making getting around more equitable for everybody, especially those that do not or cannot own a car or drive. As it stands currently, we are subsidizing the ownership and usage of a private good.

That's not to mention all of the additional tax revenue that would be generated if new developments were not required or restricted from building parking garages. A floor of private condo parking does not generate as much tax revenue as an additional floor of livable space. This is true even if taxes are excluded from the equation, and we're just considering another floor of people contributing to the local economy.

In the long term, higher demand for mass transit options will only improve quality, frequency, and speed of service. As a complement to this, the expansion of next-gen transit like ZipCar and Uber will continue to lower costs for shared auto usage and make private car ownership completely unnecessary, expensive, and inefficient for most people in JC.

The quote below from a NYT article discussing the book "The High Cost of Free Parking" sums this up.

"Legally mandated parking lowers the market price of parking spaces, often to zero. Zoning and development restrictions often require a large number of parking spaces attached to a store or a smaller number of spaces attached to a house or apartment block.

If developers were allowed to face directly the high land costs of providing so much parking, the number of spaces would be a result of a careful economic calculation rather than a matter of satisfying a legal requirement. Parking would be scarcer, and more likely to have a price ? or a higher one than it does now ? and people would be more careful about when and where they drove.

The subsidies are largely invisible to drivers who park their cars ? and thus free or cheap parking spaces feel like natural outcomes of the market, or perhaps even an entitlement. Yet the law is allocating this land rather than letting market prices adjudicate whether we need more parking, and whether that parking should be free. We end up overusing land for cars ? and overusing cars too. You don?t have to hate sprawl, or automobiles, to want to stop subsidizing that way of life."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/bus ... /economy/15view.html?_r=0

Let's not forget the benefits of better multi-modal transit in the form of increased pedestrian/driver safety, economic development (especially around permanent stations), individual savings on transportation costs (no gas, finance/lease payments, car insurance, repairs, wear and tear maintenance, tolls, registration, inspections, tickets, parking fees), lower municipal expenditures as a result of fewer potholes/road damage (from decreased usage), emergency personnel deployed to accidents, etc., and environmental benefits.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 18:13
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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MDM wrote:
Probably a similar line why the Longshoreman struck last year when the west coast ports wanted to put in upgrades that would eliminate 40% of the workforce. The unions that work on public projects are dependent on prevail wage laws. What would happen to a company that proposes a new building method that reduces union labor by 75%? If I was the owner, I would be checking under my car for bombs.**


I've always said unions tip over to the dark side when they view their mission as protecting jobs, not workers. Imagine if all the office and print workers doing brute force labor that were displaced by computers had had a powerful union protecting their jobs?

Nafco,

Nice work. You illustrate the problem of allocating the street resource. The station issue makes all but "no parking, tracks on each side" a big problem. Is there any model for elevating just the stations? That would solve the traffic chokepoint issue.


Posted on: 2016/2/19 18:00
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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This is a LRV or PATH Proposal I made for my thesis a few years back that would connect all the west side of JC to SI and potentially the City. Included were street mockups which allowed for street parking on off-peak hours like other major thoroughfares already do. Of course its cost prohibitive but theres no reason the city cant implement a plan like the Select Bus service which runs North-South in Brooklyn with limited stops in an articulated bus. It resembles a light rail at a fraction of the cost. With a dedicated lane, this would improve reliability and speed like it already has proven to in Brooklyn.

Resized Image

Resized Image

Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:59
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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brewster wrote:

Where's the modern engineering thinking to solve this problem facing cities? How about prefab elevated rail, factory built modules of supports, stations and rails delivered and quickly assembled?



Probably a similar line why the Longshoreman struck last year when the west coast ports wanted to put in upgrades that would eliminate 40% of the workforce. The unions that work on public projects are dependent on prevail wage laws. What would happen to a company that proposes a new building method that reduces union labor by 75%? If I was the owner, I would be checking under my car for bombs.**

Last year I worked on a project that involved pricing major capital improvements in a large hospital in NYC. When the effect of prevailing wage was added in, a fair number of the projects became financially non-viable. Prevailing wage increased labor costs about 270% vs. the private only sector.

I suspect the above is a major reason why it costs over a billion bucks to extend the PATH train a few miles over an existing railroad right of way.

** Back in the 1980s my dad worked with a guy who was upper management at Conrail. His job was to take the government run freight hauler 'private'. He had to re-organize the rail company to be profitable as the government subsidies were going to be cut off. He ended up laying off 80% of the workforce (over 80,000 people fired). The man had to have 24 / 7 protection even though he long left the company. He has real threats against his life.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:47
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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weba wrote:

A feasibility study was done examining best routes for Bus Rapid Transit from Bayonne/Greenville to Journal Square. The results found Kennedy Blvd to be the most appropriate thoroughfare for BRT. Not sure what the current status of this project is, but I'm sure it could use further support.

http://www.njtpa.org/planning/subregi ... -boulevard-brt-study.aspx

https://www.facebook.com/Bayonne-Jersey-City-BRT-273211032777631/


The problem with this kind of plan is the gored oxes all over the road. You'd need to either eliminate a lane of traffic in each direction, all the parking along JFK, or both.

Where's the modern engineering thinking to solve this problem facing cities? How about prefab elevated rail, factory built modules of supports, stations and rails delivered and quickly assembled? We still build everything from houses to skyscrapers like longshoremen unloading a ship by hand, where's the shipping container model? There's some experiments in Brooklyn, but we need to see more, construction costs affect affordable housing too.

How about a giant 3d printer spitting cement rolling up Kennedy printing an elevated line?

Videos of printed buildings (why have a Youtube button that doesn't work at all to embed videos?)

https://youtu.be/DQ5Elbvvr1M
https://youtu.be/WzmCnzA7hnE

Yeah, it won't happen till they solve the rebar problem. It looks like the hollow printed walls could have rebar inserted and then be filled.




Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:23
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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elsquid wrote:
There's another HUGE reason why these things don't get built.

You've already noted that the car culture is an obstacle because it hangs on to virtually free street parking space, and utterly free street driving space, like grim death, leaving little room for any other mode in existing right-of-ways.

But it also saps the demand, real and projected, for mass transit.

The streetcar companies knew they could could win public and governmental approval for building their systems, and could then attract riders, because the inland alternatives were walking or horse carriages. Even when cars came in, at first they were for only the wealthy few and not much competition.

Anyone who wants more mass transit in JC needs to make hard choices to move us at least a little closer to that environment again at the same time. We have to stop shoveling so much public money into subsidizing driving and private car ownership.

We should start by doubling the residential parking permit fee to $30, and signaling that it will go up incrementally in the future. That would begin to recoup some of the true cost of our massive street parking giveaway of prime publicly owned and maintained land.

But it would also help create a bigger constituency for the mass transit projects that the city actually needs, and increasingly will need, as it grows.


I think you've hit the nail on the head - engineering and financial feasibility of some of the projects people are discussing here aside, there may never be the political will-power to create disincentives to JC's (New Jersey's?) reliance on cars. As someone else noted, BRT would be a huge benefit to the Heights, but it will not happen with elected officials like Michael Yun in office.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:21
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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We also desperately need to raise the gas tax to reflect the true costs of driving (not a local issue, I know).

Regressive? Yes.

So feel free to dedicate it solely to expenditures that benefit the car-owning low-income workers it hits hardest, including projects that improve the roads they drive on so they're not constantly saddled with car-repair costs.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:13
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

weba wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



Well, any chance for bus rapid transit then?




A feasibility study was done examining best routes for Bus Rapid Transit from Bayonne/Greenville to Journal Square. The results found Kennedy Blvd to be the most appropriate thoroughfare for BRT. Not sure what the current status of this project is, but I'm sure it could use further support.

http://www.njtpa.org/planning/subregi ... -boulevard-brt-study.aspx

https://www.facebook.com/Bayonne-Jersey-City-BRT-273211032777631/


Thanks for this!!! If light rail is impossible for one reason or another, BRT is the next best thing.


Agreed that light rail would be ideal, but it would likely be cost prohibitive as there would not be the same land value capture as there has been with the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail (i.e. where the construction of the transit system increased the value of vacant/derelict land around the stops and the increased economic activity/population increase/taxes justified the investment in transit)

A fully-integrated, true BRT system, though, would improve transit quality and speed at a fraction of the cost for a corridor that is already mostly developed with lower rise buildings but justifiably deserves better transit options. When I say fully-integrated, true BRT I mean "surface subway" and NOT the MTA's Select Bus Service, which is barely a half-measure. See the article below for more info on what comprises fully-integrated BRT and how an implementation as close as Hartford, CT is inspired by successful global executions.

https://medium.com/@transitapp/is-this ... a-b40b7bb4115d#.smmjou7nj

Posted on: 2016/2/19 17:00
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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There's another HUGE reason why these things don't get built.

You've already noted that the car culture is an obstacle because it hangs on to virtually free street parking space, and utterly free street driving space, like grim death, leaving little room for any other mode in existing right-of-ways.

But it also saps the demand, real and projected, for mass transit.

The streetcar companies knew they could could win public and governmental approval for building their systems, and could then attract riders, because the inland alternatives were walking or horse carriages. Even when cars came in, at first they were for only the wealthy few and not much competition.

Anyone who wants more mass transit in JC needs to make hard choices to move us at least a little closer to that environment again at the same time. We have to stop shoveling so much public money into subsidizing driving and private car ownership.

We should start by doubling the residential parking permit fee to $30, and signaling that it will go up incrementally in the future. That would begin to recoup some of the true cost of our massive street parking giveaway of prime publicly owned and maintained land.

But it would also help create a bigger constituency for the mass transit projects that the city actually needs, and increasingly will need, as it grows.


Posted on: 2016/2/19 16:59
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Quote:

weba wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



Well, any chance for bus rapid transit then?




A feasibility study was done examining best routes for Bus Rapid Transit from Bayonne/Greenville to Journal Square. The results found Kennedy Blvd to be the most appropriate thoroughfare for BRT. Not sure what the current status of this project is, but I'm sure it could use further support.

http://www.njtpa.org/planning/subregi ... -boulevard-brt-study.aspx

https://www.facebook.com/Bayonne-Jersey-City-BRT-273211032777631/


Thanks for this!!! If light rail is impossible for one reason or another, BRT is the next best thing.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 16:08
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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JCGuys wrote:
A hundred years ago streetcar companies were privately owned, turned a profit, and were able to expand and flourish without local or federal tax dollars. It kind of makes you wonder what changed that you can't build a one stop extension without it costing over a billion dollars.

I'm a practical guy when it comes to cost. The Jitney's are profitable. Maybe we should just create JOLs (Jitney Only Lanes) and let them solve our transportation needs.

Seriously, traffic is going to really suck 30 years from now when Journal Square is built out with skyscrapers at heights rivaling those found in Manhattan if no new transit investments are undertaken today.

Isn't this at least one thing we can all agree on?

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Building rail is just so damn expensive (over a billion $ to extend the PATH to EWR!) I don't think it will happen anytime in the near future. I think government on the local level to the federal level is going to hit the wall debt wise in the next few years. There won't be the funds available.

Going into magical thinking mode that the money exists:

There is an abandoned right of way that could extend the light rail to JSQ, or to the Bergen Arches. Possible idea? Allow R-4 development over the Bergen Arches with the stipulation the developers build stations below the building and pay for the rail extension?

The only way I can see extending the rail up Central or Summit ave would be a subway or a skytrain. In another similar thread I did post a pic of the elevated trolley line that extended above the southern part of Central Ave until 1949.

You cold build an elevated line that works it way up to Union City, then follows Paterson Plank Road down to the rail lines that run next to 1&9. You could tie into the existing system from there.

If you have infinite money, there are a lot of possibilities.


Union labor and NJ's ridiculous "prevailing wage rate" laws didn't really exist when streetcar companies were privately owned.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 16:05
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



Well, any chance for bus rapid transit then?




A feasibility study was done examining best routes for Bus Rapid Transit from Bayonne/Greenville to Journal Square. The results found Kennedy Blvd to be the most appropriate thoroughfare for BRT. Not sure what the current status of this project is, but I'm sure it could use further support.

http://www.njtpa.org/planning/subregi ... -boulevard-brt-study.aspx

https://www.facebook.com/Bayonne-Jersey-City-BRT-273211032777631/

Posted on: 2016/2/19 16:04
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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A hundred years ago streetcar companies were privately owned, turned a profit, and were able to expand and flourish without local or federal tax dollars. It kind of makes you wonder what changed that you can't build a one stop extension without it costing over a billion dollars.

I'm a practical guy when it comes to cost. The Jitney's are profitable. Maybe we should just create JOLs (Jitney Only Lanes) and let them solve our transportation needs.

Seriously, traffic is going to really suck 30 years from now when Journal Square is built out with skyscrapers at heights rivaling those found in Manhattan if no new transit investments are undertaken today.

Isn't this at least one thing we can all agree on?

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Building rail is just so damn expensive (over a billion $ to extend the PATH to EWR!) I don't think it will happen anytime in the near future. I think government on the local level to the federal level is going to hit the wall debt wise in the next few years. There won't be the funds available.

Going into magical thinking mode that the money exists:

There is an abandoned right of way that could extend the light rail to JSQ, or to the Bergen Arches. Possible idea? Allow R-4 development over the Bergen Arches with the stipulation the developers build stations below the building and pay for the rail extension?

The only way I can see extending the rail up Central or Summit ave would be a subway or a skytrain. In another similar thread I did post a pic of the elevated trolley line that extended above the southern part of Central Ave until 1949.

You cold build an elevated line that works it way up to Union City, then follows Paterson Plank Road down to the rail lines that run next to 1&9. You could tie into the existing system from there.

If you have infinite money, there are a lot of possibilities.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 15:59
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Building rail is just so damn expensive (over a billion $ to extend the PATH to EWR!) I don't think it will happen anytime in the near future. I think government on the local level to the federal level is going to hit the wall debt wise in the next few years. There won't be the funds available.

Going into magical thinking mode that the money exists:

There is an abandoned right of way that could extend the light rail to JSQ, or to the Bergen Arches. Possible idea? Allow R-4 development over the Bergen Arches with the stipulation the developers build stations below the building and pay for the rail extension?

The only way I can see extending the rail up Central or Summit ave would be a subway or a skytrain. In another similar thread I did post a pic of the elevated trolley line that extended above the southern part of Central Ave until 1949.

You cold build an elevated line that works it way up to Union City, then follows Paterson Plank Road down to the rail lines that run next to 1&9. You could tie into the existing system from there.

If you have infinite money, there are a lot of possibilities.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 15:49
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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jc_dweller wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
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jc_dweller wrote:
nope. Not nearly enough density.


I don't know about this. Jersey City is very high density when compared to most other US cities. There are many cities getting federal grants for streetcars with densities that are far less, like Kansas City!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC_Streetcar

Kansas City density: ~1,400 people per square mile
Jersey City density: ~16,700 per square mile

(I was gonna post the density of the zip codes intersecting Kennedy Blvd in Jersey City (07307, 07306, 07304, 07305) with those of Kansas City but why bother, they're all beat by at least tenfold.)

Journal Square is set to become a mini Manhattan once it's fully built out.





This is super misleading. The JC density is what it is because of places like downtown, newport, and the Journal Square area skewing the numbers. The density along Kennedy Blvd., both heading toward Bayonne and heading north to North Bergen, drops off significantly. Does JSQ have the density for Light Rail? Sure, but the corridor itself does not have the density. You have to remember that even where HBLRT goes through less-dense Edgewater its purpose is/was to spur development on the then largely undeveloped waterfront. Kennedy Blvd through the heights is never intended to be developed that way, it is intended to stay low rise, low density, and without that user base, HBLRT will NOT provide the infrastructure. HBLRT isn't even ready to cooperate with the ass-end of downtown (by Cast Iron lofts). My negative opinion of CIL aside, that would merit a rail stop much more than JFK.

I think the suggestion that BRT be considered is a good one.


We're going to have to agree to disagree. There are areas in the country getting light rail on corridors with far less density than JFK. Look it up.

A light rail could replace all or a portion of the bus routes for the 10, 60, 82, 83, 85, 88, and 125. It would also capture some riders from the 4, 6, 22, 81, 84, 86, 122, and the Jitneys. I'm not opposed to a BRT, either, as it can quickly zoom from the Port Authority down to Journal Square and Bayonne. As long as it's a true BRT with its own dedicated lanes.

I'm not in favor of selling us short saying there is not high enough density for a LRT when there are systems being built all across the country with far less density and are half empty. Excluding Downtown and Journal Square, Jersey City is still a very dense city.

Further reading on the topic:
http://www.its.berkeley.edu/sites/def ... WP/UCB-ITS-VWP-2011-6.pdf

The analysis concludes that around 30 persons per gross acre around stations is needed to support light rail. That's right in line with Jersey City's Kennedy Corridor.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 15:23
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Municipalities Pass Resolutions Supporting Passaic-Bergen Rail Project


http://bergendispatch.com/articles/37 ... -Bergen-Rail-Project.aspx

Posted on: 2016/2/19 14:59
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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JCGuys wrote:
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jc_dweller wrote:
nope. Not nearly enough density.


I don't know about this. Jersey City is very high density when compared to most other US cities. There are many cities getting federal grants for streetcars with densities that are far less, like Kansas City!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC_Streetcar

Kansas City density: ~1,400 people per square mile
Jersey City density: ~16,700 per square mile

(I was gonna post the density of the zip codes intersecting Kennedy Blvd in Jersey City (07307, 07306, 07304, 07305) with those of Kansas City but why bother, they're all beat by at least tenfold.)

Journal Square is set to become a mini Manhattan once it's fully built out.





This is super misleading. The JC density is what it is because of places like downtown, newport, and the Journal Square area skewing the numbers. The density along Kennedy Blvd., both heading toward Bayonne and heading north to North Bergen, drops off significantly. Does JSQ have the density for Light Rail? Sure, but the corridor itself does not have the density. You have to remember that even where HBLRT goes through less-dense Edgewater its purpose is/was to spur development on the then largely undeveloped waterfront. Kennedy Blvd through the heights is never intended to be developed that way, it is intended to stay low rise, low density, and without that user base, HBLRT will NOT provide the infrastructure. HBLRT isn't even ready to cooperate with the ass-end of downtown (by Cast Iron lofts). My negative opinion of CIL aside, that would merit a rail stop much more than JFK.

I think the suggestion that BRT be considered is a good one.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 14:58
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



Easy, except for the "don't touch my parking!" contingent. As I've said, BRT on Summit from JS to 42nd st PA terminal would be killer for the Heights.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 5:07
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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If only the Hudson County Subway were constructed 100 years ago. Damn NIMBYs.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 4:56
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Not a chance. Too expensive, and any money from the Feds will be going to expand the Light Rail north. http://www.northjersey.com/news/trans ... ansion-1.1001622?page=all

Posted on: 2016/2/19 0:42
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Dolomiti wrote:
Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



UberJitney gets my vote.

Posted on: 2016/2/19 0:38
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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jc_dweller wrote:
nope. Not nearly enough density.


I don't know about this. Jersey City is very high density when compared to most other US cities. There are many cities getting federal grants for streetcars with densities that are far less, like Kansas City!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC_Streetcar

Kansas City density: ~1,400 people per square mile
Jersey City density: ~16,700 per square mile

(I was gonna post the density of the zip codes intersecting Kennedy Blvd in Jersey City (07307, 07306, 07304, 07305) with those of Kansas City but why bother, they're all beat by at least tenfold.)

Journal Square is set to become a mini Manhattan once it's fully built out.






Posted on: 2016/2/19 0:20
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Dolomiti wrote:
Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.



Well, any chance for bus rapid transit then?

Posted on: 2016/2/19 0:10
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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Some type of bus rapid transit is probably a much better idea anyway. More flexible, cheaper, easier to set up, typically incurs less local opposition.


Posted on: 2016/2/18 23:51
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Re: Kennedy Blvd. Any chance for light rail since buses are packed?
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nope. Not nearly enough density.
Who knows what'll happen by 2050 when Journal Sq. is (supposedly) bustling and a connection to Bergenline might be a thought, but short of that, no. Much of Kennedy is low density (relatively speaking)!

Posted on: 2016/2/18 22:54
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