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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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AlexC wrote:
It would be nice if Shoprite offers online shopping and free (or reduced cost) delivery, much like Fresh Direct. I think they can compete.


Um. THEY DO.

Posted on: 2015/2/9 15:43
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Funny that this conversation has gone on the way that it has... it has already been established that parking WILL BE part of the development (not as a surface lot, but as part of one or more of the buildings that will make up the proposed development.) Likewise, it is mind boggling that people keep talking about how JC will eventually be just like NYC, as if NYC was some sort of monolith concept of a carless city. Once you venture outside of Manhattan, and some of the waterfront areas in BK, you soon discover that TONS of people have cars. There are places in Queens (and, even Brooklyn!) that not having a car is actually a problem. And, some places in Queens and Brooklyn do make accommodations for cars without none of this knee jerk, militant mantra of "cars are evil, must be stopped at all costs" mentality. It is all about smart development and accommodating people's needs to the extent possible or practical. As someone else mentioned, in Queens there is a shopping complex in Rego Park that includes many big-box stores, restaurants and shops in one tight development that allows for people to arrive by foot, car or mass transit. You have similar concepts in BK. Heck, even Manhattan has one such shopping complex: East River Plaza, on the far east side of Harlem. You have a Target, Costco, Best Buy, restaurants, etc. It includes parking (gasp!) and Manhattan hasn't collapsed because of this.

Seriously, some of the people posting here are being chicken little types with all this blanket posturing against cars and parking lots. Yes, I agree that surface lots can be an eyesore and a blight on cities when allowed to proliferate out of control, but ALL cities need parking, for residents and visitors. Parking can be successfully integrated into new development in a way that is not distracting or that negatively impacts the communities.

Posted on: 2015/2/9 14:44
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Thanks - I'll try this out

Posted on: 2015/2/9 13:20
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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AlexC wrote:
It would be nice if Shoprite offers online shopping and free (or reduced cost) delivery, much like Fresh Direct. I think they can compete.
shop from home with shop rite link. http://shop.shoprite.com/Shop.aspx?strid=60EF711

Posted on: 2015/2/9 8:58
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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AlexC wrote:
It would be nice if Shoprite offers online shopping and free (or reduced cost) delivery, much like Fresh Direct. I think they can compete.


I can't see why Shoprite would go for that, it's not their business model, and FD prices are much higher. Why don't you look at one of those Uber model concierge services? I can't remember the name, but I heard a piece about it.

Posted on: 2015/2/9 0:20
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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It would be nice if Shoprite offers online shopping and free (or reduced cost) delivery, much like Fresh Direct. I think they can compete.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 23:45
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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JGJDNYCJC wrote:
Those accustomed to driving to stores downtown will end up heading outward to costco et al to do large batch shopping. Once you have a car, doesn't really matter if you're in DT or edgewater.


Not true in my opinion. I like being able to pop into the local stores while I'm out running around without it being an expedition. And I'd rather stick pencils in my eyes than deal with the traffic getting to Edgewater. Even the 1/2 hr drive (in the rare no traffic) to one of the 3 equidistant Costco's is something I usually do not more than every other month for items unique to them. I'd LOVE to see an urban Rego Park style Costco here.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 22:58
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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The property developers aren't going to care about all of the keyboard muscles on display in and on this forum. They're going to build in whichever manner that maximizes their interests. That will likely mean fewer parking spots or limited DTJC Home Depot style rooftop parking, or paid parking. Density is the reality toward which we're headed. Those accustomed to driving to stores downtown will end up heading outward to costco et al to do large batch shopping. Once you have a car, doesn't really matter if you're in DT or edgewater.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 22:37
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OMG...calm down people. As I said in a previous post, I was at the presentation the developers did for PADNA. The developers want a grocery store to be part of the overall development. They even went as far as saying they plan on working with Shoprite to keep them there.

Their plan is to include a space large enough for Shoprite (or some other grocer, if Shoprite doesn't wish to stay) in one of the earlier stages of the development. As I also said in the afore mentioned previous post, parking is included in these new buildings, thus there would likely be parking for the grocery store, but in a structure vs. a parking lot. It's probably going to be a lot like Morton's in Newport.

It's not "all or nothing". The city is very likely moving in the direction of having less need for an automobile, but it's not going to happen overnight. For all that JC has changed, we are still in our relative infancy of our renaissance. And for now, at least, I would guess developments will still be planned more weighted towards life as it currently is, and little by little, things will shift more towards a NYC model as space becomes more of a premium, and demographics change.

Barring something catastrophic, or if the economy tanks again sometime soon, change is coming, like it or not, relatively soon. It's starting downtown, and to some extent Journal Square, and it will gradually expand outward.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 21:14
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So when is construction on this going to commence?

Posted on: 2015/2/8 21:13
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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OMG...calm down people. As I said in a previous post, I as at the presentation the developers did for PADNA. the developers want a grocery store to be part of the overall development. They even went as far as saying they plan on working with Shoprite to keep them there.

Their plan is to include a space large enough for Shoprite (or some other grocer, if Shoprite doesn't wish to stay) in one of the earlier stages of the development. As I also said in the afore mentioned previous post, parking is included in these new buildings, thus there would likely be parking for the grocery store, but in a structure vs. a parking lot. It's probably going to be a lot like Morton's in Newport.

It's not "all or nothing". The city is very likely moving in the direction of having less need for an automobile, but it's not going to happen overnight. For all that JC has changed, we are still in our relative infancy of our renaissance. And for now, at least, I would guess developments will still be planned more weighted towards life as it currently is, and little by little, things will shift more towards a NYC model as space becomes more of a premium, and demographics change.

Barring something catastrophic, or if the economy tanks again sometime soon, change is coming, like it or not, relatively soon. It's starting downtown, and to zone extent Journal Square, it it will gradually expand.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 21:13
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:

If the developers manage to keep it around despite making changes, then I've got no problems with it whatsoever. If they attempt to run it out of town, that's where the problems come in.

Problems? What, you're going to beat them up if they do something you don't like?

After the macro level maneuverings (x number of buildings with x number of streets and x amount of green space), the developers are going to do what they want. If that means the beloved hardscrabble grocery store gets shivved and relocates somewhere else within a drivable distance, thems the breaks. This happens pretty much everywhere where structures/spaces are owned by someone else.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 20:00
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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why all the meanness over a supermarket. i am ceratain that if jc developes over time and there is no longer a need or desire for shoprite that the market forces of supply and demand will eventually they leave that spot...and who's not to say that shoprite could not try to go more upscale.


Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:54
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T-Bird wrote:

1. So, it sounds as though - given all of the traffic from Avalon Cove and nearby condos and their grocery suitcase express - there is no need for parking?

Fallacy. They also get a ton of business from people with cars. One can evidence this as their parking lot is constantly occupied. More so than years ago, but some of that is probably because of all the construction workers from the nearby buildings being allowed to use those lots to park.

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2. A&P emerged from bankruptcy more than three years ago.

Good for them. Then I have no idea how they are in business, as the very rare times I've been by or in there, they are always close to empty, with a sparsely occupied parking lot. Anyone got any ideas?

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3. There will be a light rail station at Jersey and 18th within five years.

Yea and there was supposed to be expansion to Hudson Mall starting in a year or two. I'll believe this when I see it.

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4. The Target plaza will be gone around the time the light rail opens. It was never meant to be permanent. Once development takes hold and spreads eastward from the Cast Iron Lofts area, the landowner will knock down Target and redevelop.


Sucks for them, then. I have no particular liking for any of the stores in that plaza outside of Modells.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:44
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T-Bird wrote:
If 60,000 sf Shoprite closed tomorrow, within two weeks a grocer with experience operating in dense urban environements would pop up and do quite well in a 30,000 to 40,000 sf space.


And I would be paying a fukton more in groceries or buying crap quality products. I don't give a rat's ass about which operator happens to be there, but so far, none of the existing ones compete with the combination of regular price, sales, and quality of offerings that this one does. The only allegiance I owe to Shoprite is a very simple dollar based one.

That is quite literally the only thing I care about in this. The single best market, which also happens to be 3 blocks from where I live, being put out of business for whatever reason.

Your nonsense about some urban panacea doesn't mean shlt to me. The fact that the Lefraks want to make even more squidrillions to build up their pockets means nothing to me, except for when it directly effects my bank account.

This is a bottom line stand I have here. You go be a snob elsewhere, drive up to your whole foods and leave us working-class folk the best market available to us, despite the fact that it doesn't look nice to your sensibilities. Let us other people who "don't drop a hundred dollars at bars every weekend" but don't want to up our daily expenses by a third have what's been working very well for decades.

If the developers manage to keep it around despite making changes, then I've got no problems with it whatsoever. If they attempt to run it out of town, that's where the problems come in.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:37
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corybraiterman wrote:

Shoprite gets a ton of business from the people who live in Avalon Cove and the nearby condos. I see people with suitcases constantly coming to and from those buildings as well as families holding a couple bags each.

Last I heard, A&P was in bankruptcy, so afloat is a relative and potentially brief term when it comes to them. They get some people from the condos that happen to be near to that section of town, as well as the nearby projects, but due to no light rail stop and dealing with tunnel traffic their client base is a lot smaller.

If the owners of that section of property +the tenants: Target, Modells, Staples, Best Buy, A&P, etc. started lobbying the fk (for the people who aren't getting the subtleties of what I'm saying, in NJ, this translates as bribes) out of NJTransit for a light rail stop in between Hoboken and Newport, they'd get a lot more people come their way.


1. So, it sounds as though - given all of the traffic from Avalon Cove and nearby condos and their grocery suitcase express - there is no need for parking?

2. A&P emerged from bankruptcy more than three years ago.

3. There will be a light rail station at Jersey and 18th within five years.

4. The Target plaza will be gone around the time the light rail opens. It was never meant to be permanent. Once development takes hold and spreads eastward from the Cast Iron Lofts area, the landowner will knock down Target and redevelop.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:31
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corybraiterman wrote:

No, you're a dunce for the reason I stated. Well you might be for other reasons, but the only reason I am specifying is the one I already said. Not because you dislike the place, but because you think some great replacement will come out of nowhere and somehow match the positives while having none of the negatives when also facing added hardships and costs.

You're a dunce for believing in things that are mythical and do not happen when dealing in context of a business. Not whether or not you like or dislike the establishment.

Also it's sunday at 2PM. I'm headed to Shoprite in half an hour. come-at-me-bro.jpg etc


And you don't seem to take in new information or consider that some people may have differing, but equally valid, opinions than yours. I don't need to put a name to it.

If, by nature of it's very large footprint and very large parking lot, Shoprite is able to be a massive suburban-style market and cater to shoppers well outside their immediate neighborhood, good for them. So far. But that's not the reality of where we are headed - and this is one of the things I hate most about Jersey City - use your imagination. Look at how things work (yes - WORK, very well) in actual cities. You bitch and moan about transportation (and it could be much, much better - agreed) but that really isn't the issue here. How many people do you see on the subways with eight bags of groceries? You don't. Why? Because that's not how people live in cities. People shop more frequently and they do it in a variety of markets, some little corner shops, some specialty shops and some proper groceries.

So - it really boils down to the fact that you are worried that your particular version of paradise (Shoprite, circa 2014) would be threatened by progress. If 60,000 sf Shoprite closed tomorrow, within two weeks a grocer with experience operating in dense urban environements would pop up and do quite well in a 30,000 to 40,000 sf space.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:24
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T-Bird wrote:
Snobbery? Maybe. I am one of the Whole Foods people - I am in Maplewood/Millburn several times a week and do every bit of my shopping at the WF in Vauxhall/Union/Millburn/Springfield (whatever town that little corner is where all those towns plus Maplewood come together.)

...

Yes, it's a lot more expensive to shop at WF - but that is how I prioritize my spending. I don't go out and drop a hundred dollars a week in bars


Yup, you're stereotyping people and being a snob.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:18
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tern wrote:
There is a whiff of snobbery in this Shoprite hating.

Prices are good, quality is decent, and it is clearly what the neighborhood needs and wants as it is packed all the time.

Robin.


I think a valid question is of how much of the clientele is from outside of Downtown. Clearly a lot. This is not to say "we don't want their kind", but just wondering if the market wouldn't be just as successful in a less dense area of JC. It can't be just that it has a higher portion of affluent patrons that makes it better than the Pathmarks.

Another thing I wonder is who keeps A&P afloat? It doesn't seem to get love from anybody.


Shoprite gets a ton of business from the people who live in Avalon Cove and the nearby condos. I see people with suitcases constantly coming to and from those buildings as well as families holding a couple bags each.

Last I heard, A&P was in bankruptcy, so afloat is a relative and potentially brief term when it comes to them. They get some people from the condos that happen to be near to that section of town, as well as the nearby projects, but due to no light rail stop and dealing with tunnel traffic their client base is a lot smaller.

If the owners of that section of property +the tenants: Target, Modells, Staples, Best Buy, A&P, etc. started lobbying the fk (for the people who aren't getting the subtleties of what I'm saying, in NJ, this translates as bribes) out of NJTransit for a light rail stop in between Hoboken and Newport, they'd get a lot more people come their way.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:14
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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tern wrote:
There is a whiff of snobbery in this Shoprite hating.

Prices are good, quality is decent, and it is clearly what the neighborhood needs and wants as it is packed all the time.

Robin.


I agree with Brewster - a lot of the shoppers in Shoprite aren't from the immediate area. Good for them that they can attract a lot of people to their store. Bad for everyone else who would like to see the area developed and evolve in a sensible way. And to say "it's what the neighborhood needs and wants" doesn't quite ring true. Taking into account who will move into all of the buildings that will be built in that development, I'd say the wants and needs of the neighborhood will be different in five years - but we'll see.

Snobbery? Maybe. I am one of the Whole Foods people - I am in Maplewood/Millburn several times a week and do every bit of my shopping at the WF in Vauxhall/Union/Millburn/Springfield (whatever town that little corner is where all those towns plus Maplewood come together.) I'd love to see a Whole Foods here and it will come, but it's probably still another three to five years away. While Shoprite is a perfectly good market for what it is, it does not offer nearly the selection of items that I eat.

Yes, it's a lot more expensive to shop at WF - but that is how I prioritize my spending. I don't go out and drop a hundred dollars a week in bars and we only eat out once or twice a week - so in the end, I'm probably not spending any more than many other people who shop at Shoprite and go out more. At least that's how I choose to think about it.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:13
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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corybraiterman wrote:

You are a dunce.
You think some magical fairy land market that matches the quality and price of Shoprite will up and appear to take over this space when it faces the raised rents that a new tenant would deal with plus the burden of zero parking.

(keep in mind the CURRENT plan has parking on the 2nd + floor, thankfully)

Words cannot express how stupid you are being right now.


Because I don't share your opinion of Shoprite I am a dunce? Huh. That's what this seems to be boiling down to. I am indifferent to there being a Shoprite. It's not where I choose to shop (and I'd sooner spend a year in Guantanamo as a suspected al Qaeda member then go into Shoprite at 4pm on a Sunday) but obviously others like/tolerate it to the point that if flourishes. All I'm saying is why engineer an outcome to perpetuate the mistakes/inefficiencies/shortcomings of the past? Absolutely - let there be a Shoprite in the new development! A Shoprite on every corner! But Shoprite will need to recognize that the Jersey City of 2020 will look very little like the Jersey City of 1990 and it needs to adapt to the changes.



No, you're a dunce for the reason I stated. Well you might be for other reasons, but the only reason I am specifying is the one I already said. Not because you dislike the place, but because you think some great replacement will come out of nowhere and somehow match the positives while having none of the negatives when also facing added hardships and costs.

You're a dunce for believing in things that are mythical and do not happen when dealing in context of a business. Not whether or not you like or dislike the establishment.

Also it's sunday at 2PM. I'm headed to Shoprite in half an hour. come-at-me-bro.jpg etc

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:05
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tern wrote:
There is a whiff of snobbery in this Shoprite hating.

Prices are good, quality is decent, and it is clearly what the neighborhood needs and wants as it is packed all the time.

Robin.


I think a valid question is of how much of the clientele is from outside of Downtown. Clearly a lot. This is not to say "we don't want their kind", but just wondering if the market wouldn't be just as successful in a less dense area of JC. It can't be just that it has a higher portion of affluent patrons that makes it better than the Pathmarks.

Another thing I wonder is who keeps A&P afloat? It doesn't seem to get love from anybody.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 19:01
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Grove Street ShopRite

I won't complain about the Metro Plaza Shoprite
I remember shopping at the old Grove Street Shoprite.
It occupied the whole block between Grove/Marin and Columbus/Wayne.
It was an old large furniture store
and some smaller buildings joined together to form the store.
However, all the building weren't at the same level, so there were ramps you had
to go up or down to get to another department.
It was knocked downed around 1983-1984

Posted on: 2015/2/8 18:57
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There is a whiff of snobbery in this Shoprite hating.

Prices are good, quality is decent, and it is clearly what the neighborhood needs and wants as it is packed all the time.

Robin.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 18:04
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user1111 wrote:
wrong! if you own a home, not renting a flat downtown Jersey City with 3 roommates you need a car. I hit up home depot about 3 x a month. So please enough of the bullshit.


So, this is a thread about a high-rise development. At Metro Plaza. Which is in Downtown Jersey City. Which is where "flats downtown Jersey City" are located. Not really sure what you are trying to say - maybe you meant to post in the JCHoodlist?

Posted on: 2015/2/8 17:22
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corybraiterman wrote:

You are a dunce.
You think some magical fairy land market that matches the quality and price of Shoprite will up and appear to take over this space when it faces the raised rents that a new tenant would deal with plus the burden of zero parking.

(keep in mind the CURRENT plan has parking on the 2nd + floor, thankfully)

Words cannot express how stupid you are being right now.


Because I don't share your opinion of Shoprite I am a dunce? Huh. That's what this seems to be boiling down to. I am indifferent to there being a Shoprite. It's not where I choose to shop (and I'd sooner spend a year in Guantanamo as a suspected al Qaeda member then go into Shoprite at 4pm on a Sunday) but obviously others like/tolerate it to the point that if flourishes. All I'm saying is why engineer an outcome to perpetuate the mistakes/inefficiencies/shortcomings of the past? Absolutely - let there be a Shoprite in the new development! A Shoprite on every corner! But Shoprite will need to recognize that the Jersey City of 2020 will look very little like the Jersey City of 1990 and it needs to adapt to the changes.


Posted on: 2015/2/8 17:20
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
Home away from home
Home away from home


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T-Bird wrote:

The next market would be one who understands how to operate in an urban environment. There are plenty of markets that succeed in densely populated areas that don't have football fields of parking.

And how big is this family that an adult can't carry home the food for a day or two? Sure - if you have a family of six and you want to shop a week or two at a time, that would be rough (although you could get one of those carts you see old ladies in Queens pushing home from the grocery.) But how many people with three or four kids are even moving into the newly built high rises?

I'm sure we could spend weeks arguing about the exceptions and trying to make sure we facilitate each and every possible person who could move in, but the reality is that the conveniences of urban living also come at a cost. One of those costs is that owning a car becomes a burden at times, or at least using it does. Since more and more people are moving back to the cities - and breaking free from the dependence on a car is a big reason for many - it seems silly to try to build for the future in a way that caters to the past. Should we put up hitching posts for your horses, too?


You are a dunce.
You think some magical fairy land market that matches the quality and price of Shoprite will up and appear to take over this space when it faces the raised rents that a new tenant would deal with plus the burden of zero parking.

(keep in mind the CURRENT plan has parking on the 2nd + floor, thankfully)

Words cannot express how stupid you are being right now.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 4:59
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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Sommerman wrote:

Maybe they will:

move elsewhere
change their lifestyle to accommodate reality
verify that Fresh Direct delivers to their zip code
empower the nanny or cleaning person to do grocery shopping

I'm sure others can add to the list.



So you want people to get forced from their homes, completely alter their free time, pay more money or be wealthy enough to pay someone else to do it for them

go piss up a rope. i'd say quite a few other things, but the webmaster would delete the post.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 4:54
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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wrong! if you own a home, not renting a flat downtown Jersey City with 3 roommates you need a car. I hit up home depot about 3 x a month. So please enough of the bullshit.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 2:27
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Re: High-rise development at Metro Plaza (Shoprite, BJs, Pepboys)
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T-Bird wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:

If you make life harder for an existing supermarket, how exactly do you plan to lure in a new one?


The next market would be one who understands how to operate in an urban environment. There are plenty of markets that succeed in densely populated areas that don't have football fields of parking.

And how big is this family that an adult can't carry home the food for a day or two? Sure - if you have a family of six and you want to shop a week or two at a time, that would be rough (although you could get one of those carts you see old ladies in Queens pushing home from the grocery.) But how many people with three or four kids are even moving into the newly built high rises?

I'm sure we could spend weeks arguing about the exceptions and trying to make sure we facilitate each and every possible person who could move in, but the reality is that the conveniences of urban living also come at a cost. One of those costs is that owning a car becomes a burden at times, or at least using it does. Since more and more people are moving back to the cities - and breaking free from the dependence on a car is a big reason for many - it seems silly to try to build for the future in a way that caters to the past. Should we put up hitching posts for your horses, too?


Nicely stated. Sometimes I think of writing a book about JC urbanism (Jerbanism): The Brownstone at the End of the Driveway.

Posted on: 2015/2/8 2:23
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