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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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JCishome wrote:
Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Monthly for Paulus Hook to 39th is $275. WTC is $230.

That's still double the cost of the PATH. And again, it's convenient -- if you live in Paulus Hook, and work in the Financial District. If you live in The Village and work in midtown? Not so much.


JCishome is talking about the Liberty Landing Ferry service. The monthly cost is $220. Of course, it is only convenient if you live in Paulus Hook, and if you work downtown.

But, I definitely prefer Liberty Landing Ferry over NY Waterway when going to downtown Manhattan, as they are much more accommodating with regards to their bike policy (no extra charge) and they also allow dogs to come on board. That's two huge pluses (to me) over NY Waterway.

Posted on: 4/6 16:05
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T-Bird wrote:
"Express" trains only work if there is another track or mechanism that allows them to bypass slower trains ahead of them. PATH doesn't have such an option.


Pre 9/11, there was rush hour express train of sorts Newark to WTC. It wouldn't take on additional passengers at the stations btw Newark and WTC. It didn't cut travel time of course.

Posted on: 4/6 15:07
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"Express" trains only work if there is another track or mechanism that allows them to bypass slower trains ahead of them. PATH doesn't have such an option.

Posted on: 4/6 14:42
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Here's a question/thought: I rode from Grove-33rd yesterday (not my usual route) and noted that very few people got off the train at Christopher, 9th, 14th or 23rd. Would it increase capacity to have "express" trains that skipped those stations and went direct to 33rd? This is a legit question, so there's no need to tell me what a dumbass I am.

Posted on: 4/6 14:29
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JCishome wrote:
Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Monthly for Paulus Hook to 39th is $275. WTC is $230.

That's still double the cost of the PATH. And again, it's convenient -- if you live in Paulus Hook, and work in the Financial District. If you live in The Village and work in midtown? Not so much.

Posted on: 4/6 13:39
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Dolomiti wrote:
Please, spare us the hysterics.

Here's what that PA spokesman was reported to say at that 2015 Hoboken meeting: “According to Coleman, the severity of the overcrowding at the Journal Square PATH station in particular was such that it had become a potential public safety problem...,”

Uh huh

That was in 2015, when he was defending a change to the schedule, which allocated fewer rush hour trains from the HOB-33rd line, to the JSQ-33rd line. (The trains went from every 6 minutes to every 7 minutes in Hoboken, so of course Hobokenites freaked out.) Oddly enough, we haven't heard about "dangerous" conditions at JSQ since then, despite ridership increasing.

Meanwhile, the new signals are in progress, and will be coming on line.


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And here's what the PA Chairman, John Degnan, himself says (from the WSJ June 5th, 2016): “Port Authority Chairman John Degnan said Jersey City shouldn’t approve new developments along the PATH’s route without making sure the system can handle the expected growth in riders. 'It’s irresponsible for a city to allow indiscriminate growth that’s going to tax public infrastructure beyond its capability,' Mr. Degnan said.”

Uh huh

Fulop is suing the PA for $200 million. It's not that surprising that they are slagging each other, pointing fingers and so forth.

Meanwhile, we all know Fulop shoots his mouth off, and attacks his political enemies in public; and Degnan is the guy who wanted to stop PATH service between 1AM and 5AM, ostensibly to cut costs. By the way, PATH loses money, PA hates it, most of Trenton hates it, did I mention?


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Serious injuries resulting from over-crowding on narrow PATH station platforms are foreseeable and avoidable.

Oh?

It is extraordinarily unlikely that the PATH system is the single most crowded commuter train system in the US, let alone the world. So let's see some actual statistics where overcrowded platforms resulted in "serious injuries."


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The kind of problem any reasonably competent transit agency should anticipate and prevent.

How?

Should they cut service between 1AM and 5AM? Save some money, open up a maintenance window? That went over like a lead balloon.

Can the PA single-handedly build a new tunnel? Nope. That will cost billions, will require federal funding, will require new stations, will require NY and NJ govs to sign off -- and since you missed it, NJ's current governor killed the previous attempt (ARC), took some of the PA funds dedicated to the ARC and spent it on other projects (like the Pulaski Skyway), thus burning any ties he had to Congress on infrastructure for years.

Can they increase train frequency by improving the signals? Yup. That's already in progress.

Can the PA command a halt to development in Newark, Harrison, Jersey City and Hoboken? lol

The only thing I've heard that sounds feasible is open gangway cars (preferably with wider entrances). IMO that's a good option, and would increase capacity by perhaps 10%. It will also require time and money to design, prototype, test, build and roll out the new cars. They'd also have to replace a fleet of relatively new cars.

Is there some obvious fix that you know about, that hasn't occurred to anyone else? I hear a lot of complaints and yet another portent of doom, but nothing constructive. So, what should the PA be doing differently?

Posted on: 4/6 13:26
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.


Exactly. If it is restored the walk to the ferry is maybe 2 extra minutes from the PATH station at Newport.

Posted on: 4/6 12:15
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Meanwhile, PATH is the red-headed stepchild of PA. Tolls, airports and rental of facilities make money; PATH loses money. No one wanted it in the first place. It's stunning that PA puts any resources into the PATH system.


The only reason the PA runs the PATH: it was part of a deal to allow them to build the original WTC. In order to tear down the old H&M railroad office buildings and construct the towers, the PA had to take over the bankrupt H&M railroad.

Posted on: 4/6 11:10
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Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.

Posted on: 4/6 10:36
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Dolomiti wrote:
Please, spare us the hysterics.


Yes, please spare us.... Unfortunately, the only thing hysterical is denying the serious PATH overcrowding that won't be fixed anytime soon. But you don't need to take my word for it, it's obvious to just about everyone, including the PA spokesman, PA Chairman and JC Mayor, all on the public record acknowledging the problem.

Here's what that PA spokesman was reported to say at that 2015 Hoboken meeting: “According to Coleman, the severity of the overcrowding at the Journal Square PATH station in particular was such that it had become a potential public safety problem...,”

And here's what the PA Chairman, John Degnan, himself says (from the WSJ June 5th, 2016): “Port Authority Chairman John Degnan said Jersey City shouldn’t approve new developments along the PATH’s route without making sure the system can handle the expected growth in riders. 'It’s irresponsible for a city to allow indiscriminate growth that’s going to tax public infrastructure beyond its capability,' Mr. Degnan said.”

JC Mayor Steve Fulop concurred a serious problem exists and blamed inadequate planning by the PA. Here's what Fulop said in that same WSJ article: “Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop faulted the Port Authority, which is jointly controlled by New Jersey and New York governors, for failing to properly plan. 'At the end of the day it’s Port Authority’s responsibility,' Mr. Fulop said. 'They should stop putting blame elsewhere. Every surrounding municipality has grown.' ”

Serious injuries resulting from over-crowding on narrow PATH station platforms are foreseeable and avoidable. The kind of problem any reasonably competent transit agency should anticipate and prevent. Consequently, I fully expect to see PA Police implementing access restrictions during rush hour in the near future. They certainly know how – they done it many times in the past, and do it today as needed.

But what I really want to know is where are the credible detailed projections, plans, timelines and $$'s from all the responsible parties to fix this mess....? There's nothing hysterical about it, it's a serious problem for residents of Jersey City and all the towns serviced by PATH.

Posted on: 4/6 10:21
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.

Posted on: 4/6 0:07
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.

Posted on: 4/5 22:43
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Dolomiti wrote:
PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/


Thanks, I see 50 new cars in the capital plan for the next 10 years. They have about 340 cars now, so 50 new cars is slightly under 15% increased capacity.....

FYI, that adds around 47,000 riders per day.

That's roughly equivalent to 940 buses. Per day.

Since not everyone who lives in JC works in NYC, and not everyone absolutely must be on the 8:18 AM train, and since (again) we've been hearing predictions of doom in this thread since 2008, what can I say? I've still got some optimism, certainly for the next 10 years.


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Where are their projections for service needs based on expected population and employment growth and commuting patterns?

No idea. Not sure how it matters, either -- they're not oblivious to the growth in the area.


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In the near future I expect to see PA police at station entrances during rush hour controlling the number of people entering.

Please, spare us the hysterics. Numerous MTA lines are worse than the PATH, and don't resort to Tokyo-style train pushers.


[QUOTE]As an aside, it was interesting to see the 78 million riders per year number in that PA document. PATH's overall annual deficit is over $400 million. Doing the math, that's about a $5 per ride deficit. Over 10 years, about $4 billion. Roughly the same amount as it cost to build the new WTC station the station Patrick Foye called “a monument to waste”. Think how much bond money $400 million annually buys, and what a properly run Agency could do with that money to improve the system. [/quote]
I... think you're a bit unclear on the concept here.

Here's the 2017 budget
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/documents/2017-Budget-Book/

PATH ridership increased from around 72m in 2012, to around 80m in 2016, and they expect it to go up 2m this year

For 2017, estimated revenue is $198m
Operating expenses is $398m
Capital budget is $216m

So, that $416m in "subsidies?" That keeps the trains running, and pays for the upgrades you want.

Meanwhile, PATH is the red-headed stepchild of PA. Tolls, airports and rental of facilities make money; PATH loses money. No one wanted it in the first place. It's stunning that PA puts any resources into the PATH system.

Yes, big capital projects are difficult, they take longer than people expect, and they're easy to criticize. PA management also has lots of issues. That said, I'm fairly confident that it is much, much easier to armchair manage a multi-billion dollar multi-state agency that answers pretty much only to two governors, than to actually run the thing.

Posted on: 4/5 22:33
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The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Posted on: 4/5 10:34
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Dolomiti wrote:
PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/


Thanks, I see 50 new cars in the capital plan for the next 10 years. They have about 340 cars now, so 50 new cars is slightly under 15% increased capacity – when all cars are in service at the end of 10 years. That seems insufficient to me, given past and anticipated growth in JC, and other towns along the line – Harrison, Newark, Hoboken.

Where does the 7 to 10 car increase come from? I don't see anything about that in the PA document. 10 car trains are not possible on the 33rd line due to the constraints previously mentioned. The WTC line 8-car trains could go to 10 cars AFTER the station upgrades complete. Last I looked nothing much was happening at Grove St....

I certainly agree about opacity and obfuscation at the PA. Where are their projections for service needs based on expected population and employment growth and commuting patterns? I didn't see any substantiating data with the capital plan. And what's the timeline? I haven't seen any announcements those 50 new cars are on order. I could have missed it, but I don't think so....

In the meantime, in my opinion and supported by remarks from the PA official quoted in the Hudson News report I cited, PATH is becoming overwhelmed. In the near future I expect to see PA police at station entrances during rush hour controlling the number of people entering. Why...? To prevent platform over-crowding and resulting serious public safety hazards, and to limit lengthening “dwell-times” as people try to get off and on.

As an aside, it was interesting to see the 78 million riders per year number in that PA document. PATH's overall annual deficit is over $400 million. Doing the math, that's about a $5 per ride deficit. Over 10 years, about $4 billion. Roughly the same amount as it cost to build the new WTC station the station Patrick Foye called “a monument to waste”. Think how much bond money $400 million annually buys, and what a properly run Agency could do with that money to improve the system.

What a mess...

Posted on: 4/5 10:17
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bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.


You really do have a comprehension problem, don't you?

Harrison is not part of the JSQ/33rd line. Yes, we all agree the NWK / WTC line is getting the longer platforms. I am saying I don't believe the 33rd St line will ever get the platform lengthening. And, if it happens, it will not be for many, many years. Maybe even 20 years. As a point of reference or comparison, consider this: the PA has spent over two years already in the installation of an elevator at the Grove St station. By the looks of it, it will be another two years before that thing is done and functional. Why should anyone believe the PA can get platforms (that lie under NYC, where litigious people will seek to stop any such project) lengthened in less than 20 years?

Posted on: 4/5 8:16
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Dolomiti wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.


It's happening on the NWK-WTC line. Bodhipooh is saying it won't happen on he 33rd line for ages, and I agree.

Posted on: 4/5 8:16
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What if they go rid of some of the seats at the ends of the cars and made the seats priority only? (Elderly, pregnant, sick, etc).

Posted on: 4/4 21:29
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bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.

Posted on: 4/4 20:04
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erstrecs wrote:
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Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.


But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?


The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.


Does anyone have a reliable source for the purported 29% increase in service after the signal system is complete?

I've never heard 29%.

Going from 7-car to 10-car trains increases capacity by 400 per trip.

Signal upgrades are going to "help" reach the goal of increasing capacity by 20%. I assume that optimistic number includes adding cars.

https://www.panynj.gov/path/systemwide-upgrades.html
Expand "New Signal System" and "Capacity"


Quote:
Train cars don't come cheap or quick, and with the Gateway tunnel and Midtown bus terminal rebuild projects sucking up vast amounts of PA cash over the next decade or so, I'm not holding my breath for any improvement in PATH service.

Actually, a bunch of the capacity improvements are already in progress.

Signal upgrades are underway, and are connected to mandatory improvements anyway

Harrison Station is already being redone, including the expansion

They've been adding new cars since 2009, and adding about 50 more starting in 2018


Quote:
It is very difficult to find reliable, trustworthy information about PATH. Too many vested interests, with too much money at stake for folks to be telling the truth....

PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/

Posted on: 4/4 19:52
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Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground... The amount of safety studies required just to satisfy and quell opposition in the various NYC neighborhoods impacted by that project would likely prove insurmountable. You have 5 stations in NYC that would need to be modified, along with additional egress capacity. Not likely to happen in the next 20 years.

Posted on: 4/4 19:32
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bodhipooh wrote:
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erstrecs wrote:
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Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.


But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?


The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.


Does anyone have a reliable source for the purported 29% increase in service after the signal system is complete? The most I recall seeing is 20% and ominously even that seems to have disappeared from the PATH website. Any more than a trivial increase will require more trains sets, and I haven't seen anything about new trains cars on order. Anyone seen that anyplace?

When PATH finishes the Harrison and Grove upgrades to accommodate 10-car trains, in theory there could be a 25% capacity increase on the WTC line – if they run the same number of trains with 10 cars in each train. That will also need more trains. So, again, anyone seen any orders for new train cars? Or even anything about that in the PATH capital budget plan....? I haven't.

On the 33rd line, I've read conflicting reports – some say 8 car trains are possible, others say 7 is the max because of the station lengths AND the clearances through the points – especially the multiple crossing points immediately to the north of Newport. Anyone have any verifiable information about that?

I've also read there's no feasible way stations on the 33rd line will ever be lengthened due to complex cost / engineering / environmental / safety concerns. If they want to extend the platforms, then one narrow egress isn't permitted on safety grounds, so they'd need to build additional entry/exit tunnels.

Train cars don't come cheap or quick, and with the Gateway tunnel and Midtown bus terminal rebuild projects sucking up vast amounts of PA cash over the next decade or so, I'm not holding my breath for any improvement in PATH service.

It is very difficult to find reliable, trustworthy information about PATH. Too many vested interests, with too much money at stake for folks to be telling the truth....

Posted on: 4/4 18:25
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erstrecs wrote:
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Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.


But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?


The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.

Posted on: 4/4 12:53
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Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.


But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?

Posted on: 4/4 12:26
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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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JCGuys wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?


Is track condition code word for suicide?



This was over 20 years ago... I walked onto the Newport platform moments after some women threw herself in front of the PATH train. The PA announced system delays "due to debris on the tracks". I never figured out if that announcement was an accident or someone had a really dark sense of humor.

Posted on: 4/4 11:27
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?


Is track condition code word for suicide?

Posted on: 4/4 10:54
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Track condition on PATH, I guess.

And then also PATH cross-honoring NJT passengers because of the NJT derailment yesterday.

Perfect recipe for an ugly commute.


Posted on: 4/4 10:34
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So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?

Posted on: 4/4 10:14
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val7101 wrote:
You are probably confusing the alternate universe you are traveling in with reality.

Nope, I'm commuting in the real world. 5 days a week.


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Or else you are one of those people who just push into the train as long as they can get two toes in the door.

Not that either.


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Or just a troll on JC List with no actual experience.

Strike 3

As a reminder, ad hominems are not actually an argument.

Posted on: 4/3 19:54
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Bamb00zle wrote:
My understanding is Federal regs preclude PATH trains running more frequently until the signal system has been updated. So it seems a fine point to say the signal upgrade is not mandated. But mandate or no, more reliable and frequent PATH service is badly needed.


Not to get too in the weeds, but the mention of "mandates" reminded me. There are two systems being installed here. One is required whether PATH wants to increase capacity or not, the other is needed to get the capacity to run more trains:

1. Positive Train Control (PTC) is required by federal law. All passenger and freight railroads in the U.S. must have PTC installed and operational by 2018. PTC addresses safety issues, but does not significantly impact capacity.

2. Communications-based train control (CBTC) will allow trains to run closer together, thereby increasing the effective capacity of the lines.

The signal work PATH has been doing for the past two years or so has been to install the systems for both. Here's a cute video the PA posted on youtube last year about the signal upgrades:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWtFsU0SeH8

Posted on: 4/3 19:27
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