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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
 
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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You can reference dtjcview. He posted that community policing should be determined by the community. If enough people want Stop and Frisk, then have at it. There have been definitive problems with the program in the past. Some of it has to do with turning a crime many consider petty (possession of minor drugs) and having someone obtain a criminal record for it. It isn't always effective in the direction that people truly want. There is always a ripple effect. Not all responses are positive. The key is finding the balance.
Posted on: 2015/6/12 21:10
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Pebble, this is one of the only cogent points I've ever seen you make (though you took my post from another thread). So I'll agree, we don't need to listen to a conservative columnist. We can listen to the community instead. Many in the poor community of East Harlem want stop and frisk to return. They are realizing that while over aggressive policing is definitely a problem, ghetto black criminals who murder and terrorize the neighborhood are far worse, so they want a return of stop and frisk to deter gun possession. I suppose you will support their decision, right? http://7online.com/news/rally-held-in ... of-stop-and-frisk/777550/
Posted on: 2015/6/12 20:55
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
Joined:
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I love irony? Quote:
I guess instead of posting an article with a study, you?ll go a step further and post an opinion piece by a conservative? So in your words, ?You think linking to some conservative opinion columnist means anything?? Quote:
I couldn?t agree more.
Posted on: 2015/6/12 20:45
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Dos A Cero
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I would like to say this a false premise, but it is so profoundly paternalistic that it's hard to say any of the points is a valid premise. When I as in my 20's, my friends and me - all gay men - could have followed those instructions to a "T", and still gotten hassled by the cops in most places outside of NYC. And even some neighborhoods in NYC. "Stop and Frisk", indeed "Broken Windows" policing theory, are doomed not because they are not needed, but because for too long law enforcement has been compromised by the biases motivations of a few.
Posted on: 2015/6/12 20:10
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Rally held in East Harlem for the return of Stop and Frisk
http://7online.com/news/rally-held-in ... of-stop-and-frisk/777550/ But in Harlem and in neighborhoods across the city, many of the same people who protested the policy, now say it may be the only way to keep criminals from carrying guns. "They feel like they can get away with it. They feel like maybe I'm less likely to get caught if they're not looking for that," Serena Davis said. "I can't tell you what mother I've not come across who lost a loved one to gun violence who is not sitting here advocating for "Stop and frisk" to come back. It's a catch 22. It's a serious catch 22 in our community," said Tony Herbert, a community activist.
Posted on: 2015/6/11 18:00
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Funny, because 90% of all violent crime in NYC is caused by people who are black or Hispanic. That was Kelly's continued argument for the program. You call it discriminatory, I call it practical. Makes sense to focus your resources on the smaller groups who are overwhelmingly the source of the problems.
Posted on: 2015/6/6 3:23
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I may agree with some of your conclusions, but not necessarily with your reasoning.
In my opinion, S&F is unconstitutional regardless of whether cops apply it in a racist, or a non-racist manner. Oh, and about this: Quote: Dolomiti wrote: There is nothing in his dress or posture that says "gangsta". It's not about just about the hoodie. It's not about just one item of clothing. No fashion is. In any case, you know just as well as the rest of us that the whole idea of a "gangsta" style dress is to project a certain image. Like when you put on a smart suit, clean shoes and a power tie, you probably want to project some image too. And you actually count on that image when you dress for an interview in Goldman Sachs or whatnot, right? We do that image stuff because it works. Consider how David Brooks decided that Obama would be a very good president not when he analyzed Obama's ideas, but when he was mesmerized by his perfectly creased pant. So, back to the story - when people want to project certain image, oftentimes they succeed. You just can't deny it.
Posted on: 2015/6/6 0:07
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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No. The number of searches went up dramatically, yet they didn't find more guns. Even after the policy was reduced temporarily in 2009, they were catching about the same number of guns as in previous years. The reason we know S&F didn't work is because crime in NYC was falling since the early 90s; S&F only started around 2002; and there was no correlation between the dramatic increase in S&F and the continuing gradual drop in crime. And no, the current increase in shootings (and drop in other crimes) almost certainly has nothing to do with the change in S&F. Among other factors, other cities that didn't have S&F policies have also seen increases in shootings -- far in excess of what NYC is seeing. Not to mention that, as one NYT article points out, looking at these stats are often misleading. Year-on-year stats are misleading; talking about percentages, when the number of shootings are at the lowest levels since the 1960s, is also misleading. (Not to mention that pro-police types are also screaming that the real cause is that cops are terrified of being accused of misconduct....) http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/ ... w-that-the-sky-is-falling Quote: OK. Sure. Have the same dude wearing two totally different outfits: one the ghetto get up, and other a more professional one. Which outfit do you think will result in more stops? Yeah, I'm sure this hoodie-lover gets stopped and frisked all the time:  Again, and say it with me now: Wearing a dark hoodie is not, and should not be, justification for searching someone, nor is it a predictor of criminal behavior. Quote: Make up your mind. First you say they are discriminating and focusing on certain people. Now you are saying the opposite. Are they searching everyone? Or, perhaps people that fit certain patterns or characteristics?? Uh, hello? They are predominantly searching blacks and Hispanics, hence the obviously discriminatory nature of the process. That's not the same thing as a community policing approach, where the cops actually interact with and know the people in those neighborhoods. I.e. they are being discriminatory, not knowledgeably selective. The claim is not that complicated. Quote: Good. So, the searches were random and criteria applied equally? Sounds like a legit application of the policy, then. Tell that to the judge, who appointed a federal monitor because the NYPD's execution of this policy was blatantly discriminatory. And no, the police are NOT supposed to randomly search citizens with no justification whatsoever. That's unconstitutional. The police must have a reasonable suspicion that the individual is involved in a crime. Many of the S&F stops did not meet that standard, by the way. Quote: Quote: What "context" do you need? Do you really think that whites are less belligerent to the cops, when they're stopped and frisked? Perhaps you think the cops are such excellent mind-readers, that they know exactly who is innocent and who is guilty before they search them? Quote: Quote: Cool story bro Thanks for sharing that anecdote, but it's basically meaningless. The NYPD did over 4million searches between 2002 and 2012; in 2012 alone, they did more searches on minority youths than actually live in NYC. By the way, how long did you live in the neighborhoods targeted by the NYPD S&F program, while it was active? And again, how would you react if the cops searched you a few times a year, claiming that the reason for the search was that you made a "furtive movement" when you reached into your pocket for a cell phone? Quote: Your numbers don't add up. If Hispanics and Blacks are 50% of the NYC population.... Roughly 50% of NYC is black or Hispanic. Almost 90% of the people who were stopped and frisked were black or Hispanic. I did not claim that "90% of all minorities in NYC were searched." I cited the figures to show the significant discrepancy between the population of NYC, and who was getting searched. It's one of many indicators of the discriminatory nature of the program.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 23:23
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Okay, can we stop pretending that "stop and frisk" even plays a role here. The area is simply not "policed."
I don't blame the guys in uniform; there is a lack of supervision obviously. There has to be a police presence and enforcement. There isn't. Stop and frisk is for debate when there are actually police patrolling an area.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 16:23
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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For starters, detaining and searching an individual would have to occur only in the light of reasonable suspicion as intended. That hasn?t been the case, and excessively liberal interpretations by many law enforcement officers are the reason it has become a subject of contention. A practice that?s incompatible with the ideals of American personal freedom is probably not a good policy, regardless of whether it has the intended results.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 13:02
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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Community policing should mean communities have a real say in how they are policed. What's targeted, what's not.
They want broken windows and stop and frisk - they got it. They want a blind eye turned to minor infractions - they got it. IMO policing is far too top-down and autocratic - and community policing seems to be about - we'll stand in front of you periodically and let you vent.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 7:09
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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Hero, you realize that by saying the increase in shootings and violent crime is "natural," you are unfairly setting your position up so it can't lose, right?
If shootings went down, you'd point to this and say, see, this is proof that stop and frisk didn't work. Crime is going down without it. But now that they are increasing, you point and say essentially the same thing, except you make the excuse that the violent crime increase is "natural." And we do have correlation between stop and frisk being ended and violent crime spiking, the timing coincides almost exactly. You mean to say we can't prove causation, but something like that is nearly impossible to prove without newly arrested criminals admitting they have become more brazen about committing crimes now that they don't have to worry about being frisked. I'm curious, what evidence would it take for you to conclude that stop and frisk was a good policy that worked?
Posted on: 2015/6/5 4:46
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Posted on: 2015/6/5 4:19
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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The core of your argument, and it is flat out incorrect. After two decades of a decrease in shootings and other violent crime, the fact is there has been an increase in shootings since stop and frisk was ended. "Shootings in New York City have been rising for two straight years, the first time that has happened since the end of the 1990s, when the city was still in the early years of a remarkable downturn in crime. Homicides by gunfire, seen as a key measure of preventable violence, are up steeply this year. Of the 135 killings through May, 98 involved a gun, up from 69 such killings at this point in 2013 and in 2014. Taken together, the trends raise concern heading into the summer months, when street violence is often most pronounced. So far this year, there have been 439 shootings, 20 percent higher than the same period in 2013, which was a historically low year." http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/nyr ... -issue-for-de-blasio.html Oh, and crime is rising even more in the poorest neighborhoods. http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150 ... -seen-most-nypd-precincts While well-intentioned, your poetic waxing about "discriminatory practices" is only hurting those who you claim to care about. Residents of low income areas are experiencing a rise in violent crime, which directly coincides with the end of stop and frisk.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 3:43
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Oddly enough? Is that a joke!? This right here is why rational discussions are impossible with some people. You see the number of guns found on people trending downwards and you conclude that "stop & frisk" is a failure or a bad policy. I see that trend and reach what would be the most logical and sensical thing: criminals know that carrying a gun on them is a risky proposition, so they don't do it. In other words, "stop & frisk" is succeeding in its goal of decreasing or suppressing spur of the moment crimes by people opting not to walk around with weapons. Quote:
OK. Sure. Have the same dude wearing two totally different outfits: one the ghetto get up, and other a more professional one. Which outfit do you think will result in more stops? Quote:
Make up your mind. First you say they are discriminating and focusing on certain people. Now you are saying the opposite. Are they searching everyone? Or, perhaps people that fit certain patterns or characteristics?? Quote:
Good. So, the searches were random and criteria applied equally? Sounds like a legit application of the policy, then. Quote: By the way: The result was that police used force on minorities about 22% of the time during an S&F, while for whites it was 15%. Surprise. Numbers without context.... Sure, i am sure all of these people that got roughed up were totally nice kids. And, they never hurt anyone. I know because every time some gang banger gets snuffed, I hear the mother proclaim their innocence and how they were such great kids and had never done anything wrong. Give me a break. If the difference is only 7%, I am impressed in a good way. Kudos, NYPD. Quote:
Funny, I am Hispanic. Never been stopped and frisked. Been in the hood enough to see this happen in front of my eyes, and never felt I was at risk of it happening to me. But, yeah. Cool theory. Quote:
Your numbers don't add up. If Hispanics and Blacks are 50% of the NYC population, that would amount to about 4 million people. You say there were 4.4 million "stop & frisk" occurrences, over 8 years. Since 83% were minorities, that means about 3.7 million, divided by year that's 450K such occurrences per year. If every person is stopped 3 or 4 times, that means only 110K to 150K people in the hood were stopped per year. That's less than 3% of the minority population. In other words: cool story. Too bad facts and numbers get in the way of what you are trying to sell us.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 3:30
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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I don't mind stop and frisk since it means criminals have to think twice before going to the streets with weapons or drugs. You can see the difference now that they have stopped the program in NYC the crime rate has started to rise since criminals are no longer in fear. As for this senseless murder, I hope the rats responsible for this are found quickly and thrown in confinement, I wish they never took away the death penalty as these rats should be put down as they have no use for society.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 3:07
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ಠ_ಠ
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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Apparently, they are "being black" or "being Hispanic." I'm being sarcastic, but it's not a joke. Between 2004 and 2012, the NYPD made 4.4 million stops. 83% of citizens stopped were black and Hispanic, and they're only half the population of NYC. 88% of people stopped were completely innocent. 6% resulted in summonses, 6% in arrests, and most of those were for petty crimes like possession of marijuana. Guns were only turned up in 1.5% of searches. Oddly enough, the number of guns found went down as the number of searches went up. Quote: Here are a couple of hints, if you want to avoid attention from the fuzz: Wearing a hoodie is not sufficient cause for a search. And wearing nice clothes didn't stop cops from searching people. Quote: - act with manners, and respect, towards those around you and the neighborhood as a whole What nonsense. The cops weren't driving up to people and checking if they read Miss Manners. Nor is that justification for a search. The police weren't getting to know which kids are the bad kids, and searching just them. They were searching everyone. (e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/12/nyregion/12frisk.html?_r=2&hp) Quote: - take stock of your behavior, and who you choose to associate with on a regular basis The cops weren't watching who was hanging out with who. They were going into high-crime neighborhoods and searching a bunch of people, looking for minor infractions to hit their "Broken Windows" numbers. Quote: Also, if someone fears the police because they are patrolling the neighborhood and keeping the crime rate down... Well, I have to wonder: what is that person in fear of? Getting the daylights beaten out of them by cops, who can get away with it because accountability for police misconduct is basically broken in NYC. By the way: The result was that police used force on minorities about 22% of the time during an S&F, while for whites it was 15%. Surprise. Oh yeah, you forgot the most critical thing if people don't want to be stopped & frisked: Don't be black or Hispanic. Quote: Lastly, to address the point I think you were trying to make about whether or not *I* would be OK with being searched more than once. I don't know what else to say other than I very much doubt I would be singled out for random stop and frisks... That's not an answer. If the cops stopped and frisked you and everyone in your neighborhood two, three or four times a year, would you be OK with it? The bottom line is that Stop & Frisk was a bad policy that was implemented in a discriminatory manner. It didn't seize a lot of guns, it didn't reduce crime. Putting the policy under court supervision hasn't resulted in an increase in shootings. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 2:52
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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First of all, if anyone is being stopped and frisked on a regular basis, they should really ask themselves what it is that they are doing to attract that sort of attention all the time. Stop and frisk opponents try to portray the practice as some sort of daily ritual to which people in certain neighborhood are subjected. That's a disingenuous characterization. Here are a couple of hints, if you want to avoid attention from the fuzz: - dress like a respectable person - act with manners, and respect, towards those around you and the neighborhood as a whole - take stock of your behavior, and who you choose to associate with on a regular basis Also, if someone fears the police because they are patrolling the neighborhood and keeping the crime rate down... Well, I have to wonder: what is that person in fear of? and, why?? Like, seriously, are you in fear every day of your life when you take a PATH or subway ride and see police standing by turnstiles, randomly pulling people aside for a bag check? Do you tremble every time you go to an airport and are subjected to a full body scan AND check of all personal belongings?? Lastly, to address the point I think you were trying to make about whether or not *I* would be OK with being searched more than once. I don't know what else to say other than I very much doubt I would be singled out for random stop and frisks, and definitely not on a "regular basis". Where I grew up (in PR) there is a very old, and very commonplace, saying that roughly translates to "tell me what company you keep, and I will tell you what you are". I don't attract unwanted attention from police or the authorities because I don't go around acting like a gang banger, I don't dress like a hoodlum, I don't hang around with criminals or those who would attract the wrong kind of attention, and I act very politely towards others, and always with respect towards my surroundings. The few times I have had unwanted interactions with police, they have always been pleasant enough exchanges: show them respect and 99% of policemen will go on their way after they have satisfied their original curiosity/questions/concerns.
Posted on: 2015/6/5 2:21
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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Posted on: 2015/6/4 22:40
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Cool story, bro. I must have missed the memo with the announcement that you got appointed to be spokesperson for me and my kind.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 22:23
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
Joined:
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Posted on: 2015/6/4 21:47
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Home away from home
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There is video footage that may show the fatal shooting of the fire chief's son, Mayor Steve Fulop said this afternoon.
Fulop, speaking by phone to The Jersey Journal, declined to say more about the footage except that investigators are reviewing it. "We take every shooting and homicide very seriously," he said. "This one hits home, particularly close to home." Story
Posted on: 2015/6/4 21:05
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Home away from home
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DIANE TROLLMAN IS USELESS. .
Posted on: 2015/6/4 20:57
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Councilwoman Diane Coleman 'with the weather we're having we're bound to have accidents or incidents'
WTF? A bullet to the back of the head isn't either.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 20:22
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It's not trolling when it's the truth, as uncomfortable as it may make you. I watched the same TV report bodipooh did.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 17:08
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Dude, not blaming the victim, at all. Just saying that there are many unexplored aspects/angles in the story. But, yeah, whatever. Let's stick our heads in the sand, and assume all is peachy in la la land. As for the "article" you mention, it should be noted it was an op-ed piece, and the examples used to "prove" their theory/opinion are all related to cities that have experienced unrest recently and that unrest may be contributing to a "withdrawal" by police, which in turn has allowed crime rate to go up. That doesn't mean all major US cities are seeing an uptick in general crime, or violent crime in particular.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 17:05
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And the effect of this is? Nice to see a little slice of Baltimore growing each day in JC.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 17:05
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Not too shy to talk
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and proceeds to troll, troll and, oh yeah, troll
Posted on: 2015/6/4 17:01
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Re: Murder on Fulton Ave - Second Fatal Shooting in Eight Days
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Well, there really is no need to make it about race. But, there is something to be said about police reluctance or tentativeness to engage with communities of which they are now wary because of the potential for issues, complaints or accusations. The truth is that many minority communities are hoping and asking for increased police presence, but they are getting the opposite. The behavior of a few is really, really affecting minority communities nationwide. And, by the behavior of a few I mean those who choose to riot (regardless of perceived justification, or prior history) and the ubiquitous white-guilt SJWs.
Just this morning, there was an NPR segment talking about this. They mentioned, among other things, that: - in some cities, police departments have resorted to placing two police officers in each squad car to prevent or minimize the risk of baseless accusations (and potential personal risk to patrolling officers) thereby resulting in patrols being reduced by half. - some community leaders are frustrated that, as police withdraw from (or, hesitate to be in) certain minority communities (for fear of accusations or other problems) the crime rate has increased. And, they are all calling for MORE police presence in their neighborhoods. Last night, in NBC News 4 (local news) they were interviewing some relatives and neighbors where someone was recently shot and killed, and it was a similar reaction: "please bring back stop and frisk". Yep, minorities asking (begging, really) for the city government to bring back what became the SJW cause c?lebre du jour: the stop and frisk. And, is it any surprise? Just like anyone else, these minorities want to be able to live safely, in peace, and without fear.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 16:58
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Just like the woman who was robbed by "bystanders" after she was shot in the street, I am seeing more victim blaming on this board. Read about the Ferguson Effect. We are seeing a nationwide increase in violent crime in cities across the country. It is not because many more victims are blameworthy. And if what we see in the other U.S. cities is any indicator, this is a sign of things to come.
Posted on: 2015/6/4 16:50
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