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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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they almost certainly will.

example: the stairwell at the front end of WTC for the hoboken trains. it's a 2-person stairwell only.

Posted on: 2015/4/29 18:50
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Cool drawing.

But there isn't much room between the existing stairs and the tracks. I hope they don't plan to make the stairs more narrow.

Posted on: 2015/4/29 17:32
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Simple if you ask me. then again, i use common sense, and the PA uses WTF knows what, but I'm ASSUMING this is how it breaks down.

Revel in my MSPaint skillz. Hey, PA, if you use this graphic, i demand you purchase it from me!

Resized Image

Posted on: 2015/4/29 5:27
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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The news report says "The new entrance will have an elevator from the street to the mezzanine, and then a vertical-lift platform from the mezzanine down to the train platform."

I can't yet envision how and where the vertical-lift platform is to be installed.

Posted on: 2015/4/28 22:04
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I'd like to know how much it costs to build a 20 foot NYC subway elevator. Then we will have a real point of comparison.

Here's a PDF that shows the cost for the MTA to either replace or install elevators over the last 5+ years. You can Ctrl+F for 'elevator' and they've conveniently put the cost in parenthesis right next to it in many cases.

Looks like costs range from around 2MM to 6MM per elevator. Surprisingly I guess the PA is not out of line here. BUT since I fully expect this to go over schedule and over budget by at least double I'd take the MTA numbers with a grain of salt. The PA, after all, makes the MTA look like a well oiled machine.

http://web.mta.info/capital/pdf/CapitalConstruction_1014.pdf

Posted on: 2015/4/24 15:36
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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I'd like to know how much it costs to build a 20 foot NYC subway elevator. Then we will have a real point of comparison.

Posted on: 2015/4/24 14:36
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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borisp wrote:
I am sorry if you got confused by the chicken. Let's try something simpler. Imagine you have two engineering projects...


Engineering projects aren’t things I imagine, they’re things I’ve been working on every day of my career for the past twenty years as a mechanical engineer.

Going back to your original post where you wrote, “Here is a good way to think about costs.” Sorry, but it wasn't. Using the Large Hadron-oh-you-want-to-talk-about-college-words-Collider is not a good way to put the costs of the Grove St. elevator project in perspective. You can steer the discussion to suit your narrative all you want (and as you tend to do) but it’s still a pointless comparison. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to a similar project.

The most realistic way to think about project costs is to think like a designer and a builder, and while it certainly helps, one doesn’t have to be an engineer or contractor to do so. We all live in a constructed world, and the science classes took in high school taught us how to understand things we may not initially comprehend.

However, I do have an advantage based on my professional experience, and when I consider the design, logistics, and construction for a “simple elevator” over a subway station and next to a major roadway, it quickly becomes obvious that it's a complex and expensive prospect. Is $4M the best number? I can't really say since I'm not involved with the project, but it certainly doesn't sound wrong.

Posted on: 2015/4/24 13:35
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Vertical lift platform & elevator same thing ! No?

Posted on: 2015/4/23 23:11
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Everyone, I checked with the PA and they confirmed that the elevator work will last 4 years. Their supervisors really like Kitchen-at-Grove.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 22:22
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

MikeyTBC wrote:
Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
If you want to use college words, try this: "upper boundary".

Like, yes, sure you can't "extrapolate" the price of a piece of chicken by looking at Kobe beef prices. However, you can safely assume that a chicken cutlet sandwich from a street cart should fetch about 10-20 times less than a Kobe beef entree in a posh restaurant.



You may as well have compared the Grove St. elevator project to the Three Gorges Dam for as worthless a comparison as that would be, and now you’re going on about chicken? Wow, you totally suck at being wrong.


Boris, I thought it was a colorful analogy. I guess that just leaves you, me, and these chickens.


The problem is that people usually feel comfortable with the sums they spend every day. Imagine that the City Hal had a reception and they posted a receipt that would state they had chicken sandwiches at 400 dollars each. If that happened all the people would immediately recognize that not only it's too expensive, but it's expensive beyond any reasonable measure. They would immediately realize that something very wrong is going on. I mean, ok, if they had sandwiches for 30 bucks each it would be a reason to be unhappy about how lavishly they spend money. But 400? It's not just expensive. It's a crime. May be the City Hall is bribed by the caterer. May be there is some stupid law that requires City Hall to always buy from the same caterer who tries to milk this monopoly for all its worth.

Same here. When we pay for a well with the simple elevator more (per feet) than someone paid for the LHC, it means we are way beyond "expensive".

Oh, and you know what - here is an article about how house elevators are a growing trend and you can have one for 15-20K, or

"you can opt for rich wood paneling, stone, mosaic, mirrors, grab bars — oh, and let's not forget elevator music. Yes, some of these come with the ability to pipe in music.
Another important add-on is a telephone. Since we don't always carry our cell phones around with us when we are at home, I think any elevator should include a phone for emergencies.
The total cost to put in an elevator can easily come in around $100,000 if you have to retrofit and opt for lots of bells and whistles."


See? We need something simple. No bells. No whistles. No rich wood, stone or mosaic. Simple box moving up and down. Something an average homeowner would get for 20K tops. What? Ah, it's a complicated job, the elevator shouldn't fell down on the tracks. Ok. Let's double the price, 40k. No? Quadruple? 80K? Make it ten times more expensive? 200K? Fine. Now, this is expensive. 4 million is a crime.



Posted on: 2015/4/23 21:27
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
If you want to use college words, try this: "upper boundary".

Like, yes, sure you can't "extrapolate" the price of a piece of chicken by looking at Kobe beef prices. However, you can safely assume that a chicken cutlet sandwich from a street cart should fetch about 10-20 times less than a Kobe beef entree in a posh restaurant.



You may as well have compared the Grove St. elevator project to the Three Gorges Dam for as worthless a comparison as that would be, and now you’re going on about chicken? Wow, you totally suck at being wrong.


I am sorry if you got confused by the chicken. Let's try something simpler. Imagine you have two engineering projects.

First one is very complex, it is unique in every aspect from its blueprints, to the equipment that would be used in construction, to the equipment that would be installed. It requires high precision, again in every aspect from construction to installation and tuning. It requires highly qualified scientific personnel.

Second is an every-day, standard and routine. It's been done before. It requires standard level of precision, of-the-shelf tools and can be done by average construction team.

Which project do you think should be more expensive?

A. The first one,
B. The second one,
C. They should cost the same,
D. Hard to tell
E. What on Earth do those projects have to do with a chicken cutlet in an elevator?!!!!


Posted on: 2015/4/23 21:03
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
If you want to use college words, try this: "upper boundary".

Like, yes, sure you can't "extrapolate" the price of a piece of chicken by looking at Kobe beef prices. However, you can safely assume that a chicken cutlet sandwich from a street cart should fetch about 10-20 times less than a Kobe beef entree in a posh restaurant.



You may as well have compared the Grove St. elevator project to the Three Gorges Dam for as worthless a comparison as that would be, and now you’re going on about chicken? Wow, you totally suck at being wrong.


Boris, I thought it was a colorful analogy. I guess that just leaves you, me, and these chickens.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 18:04
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

borisp wrote:
If you want to use college words, try this: "upper boundary".

Like, yes, sure you can't "extrapolate" the price of a piece of chicken by looking at Kobe beef prices. However, you can safely assume that a chicken cutlet sandwich from a street cart should fetch about 10-20 times less than a Kobe beef entree in a posh restaurant.



You may as well have compared the Grove St. elevator project to the Three Gorges Dam for as worthless a comparison as that would be, and now you’re going on about chicken? Wow, you totally suck at being wrong.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 17:40
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

borisp wrote:
Here is a good way to think about costs.

Large Hadron Collider near Geneva is...


The cost of the LHC cannot be extrapolated to the installation of single elevator over an active subway line with any relevance or accuracy.


If you want to use college words, try this: "upper boundary".

Like, yes, sure you can't "extrapolate" the price of a piece of chicken by looking at Kobe beef prices. However, you can safely assume that a chicken cutlet sandwich from a street cart should fetch about 10-20 times less than a Kobe beef entree in a posh restaurant.


Posted on: 2015/4/23 16:50

Edited by borisp on 2015/4/23 17:11:35
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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borisp wrote:
Here is a good way to think about costs.

Large Hadron Collider near Geneva is...


The cost of the LHC cannot be extrapolated to the installation of single elevator over an active subway line with any relevance or accuracy.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 12:58
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Posted on: 2015/4/23 12:27
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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All anyone talk about is 'a elevator'. One elevator. Has any of these reporters ever been in a PATH station? Did they go downstairs? Did they investigate further? How do we get from that elevator to the train?


Officials: Jersey City PATH train station upgrades will make life easier for disabled, elderly

Port Authority plans to create a wheelchair-accessible elevator at Grove Street entrance

http://www.fios1news.com/newjersey/path-train-upgrade

Posted on: 2015/4/23 11:50
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Please.
If the elevator ran directly to the platform, it would have to start from the middle of Christopher Columbus Drive.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 10:36
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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another way to think of it is that it's only 0.01 % of the cost of the WTC Path station so it's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Posted on: 2015/4/23 5:37
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Here is a good way to think about costs.

Large Hadron Collider near Geneva is one of the most sophisticated projects you can imagine. It required building a circular tunnel with circumference of about 17 miles, at the depth of about 500 feet. And it should have been very precise in shape. Add to that all the things they placed into that tunnel.

Now the costs - according to the Wikipedia - were about 9 billion dollars. That means that with all the complexity, and precision, and sophistication, and uniqueness of the project, 4 million dollars would cover 40 feet of that tunnel + equipment.

And we are getting what, how many, 20 feet of the most standard simple elevator?



Posted on: 2015/4/23 3:36
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Shenanigans is a fun game when you have near-zero accountability. Think we need the PA to demonstrate they're not fuck-wits. Not sold on it tbh.


Posted on: 2015/4/23 2:54
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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CatDog wrote:
I'm less concerned with the timetable and more concerned with how many billions of dollars this will run over budget, and how much our fares will be hiked to cover it. I'm fully expecting it to run to $2 billion and a $6 one-way fare.
i don't care how much it costs...there should be an elevator there and at as many path stations as possible to accomodate the handicapped

Posted on: 2015/4/22 23:59
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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As was pointed out by someone on the HCNA Facebook page, you need two elevators, otherwise you bypass the turnstiles. Anyone know if the MTA has any street-to-platform elevators?

Posted on: 2015/4/22 22:09
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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I'm less concerned with the timetable and more concerned with how many billions of dollars this will run overbudget, and how much our fares will be hiked to cover it. I'm fully expecting it to run to $2 billion and a $6 one-way fare.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 21:06
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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FYI, I spoke to the Port Authority about why they expect construction to take two years. Here's what the PA told me:

Port Authority spokeswoman Cheryl Ann Albiez explained the expected two-year construction timetable by saying that, aide from weather constraints, crews will work during non-peak hours to "minimize" disruption to the PATH system.

Albiez added that nightly construction will be limited because the PATH station is located close to residential buildings.


You can also see a rendering of the elevator here.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 20:52
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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I believe it is two elevators.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 17:56
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

K-Lo wrote:
Does this elevator go all the way down to the platform? Cannot figure out the logistics.


I don't see how this elevator can make it to the platform from where it is being built. As far as I can tell, the platform is running under Christopher Columbus Drive in that area. I say this based on a mental projection of the two stairwell entry points over by Grove and Columbus (from the North entrance you have to travel to the South to the reach the second set of stairs, and from the South entrance you travel North to reach the same set of stairs) so I am missing something. Unless, of course, they are building two elevators, and the ride from street surface to platform will involve a transfer.


A few do-overs are factored into the budget.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 17:52
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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K-Lo wrote:
Does this elevator go all the way down to the platform? Cannot figure out the logistics.


I don't see how this elevator can make it to the platform from where it is being built. As far as I can tell, the platform is running under Christopher Columbus Drive in that area. I say this based on a mental projection of the two stairwell entry points over by Grove and Columbus (from the North entrance you have to travel to the South to the reach the second set of stairs, and from the South entrance you travel North to reach the same set of stairs) so I am missing something. Unless, of course, they are building two elevators, and the ride from street surface to platform will involve a transfer.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 15:27
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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Does this elevator go all the way down to the platform? Cannot figure out the logistics.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 14:12
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Re: $4M Grove Street PATH station elevator
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And don't forget the $4 million is just a budgeted figure for starters. How much do you want to bet that the cost overrun on this one elevator will likely double the price tag by the time all is said and done? Of course, $8 million is a drop in the bucket for the Port Authority compared to the billions in cost overruns across the river with the WTC redevelopment and that travesty of a train station there.

Posted on: 2015/4/22 13:33
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