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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Our household spends about 300 a week on dining and take-out. That includes Komegashi, Grand Sichuan, VB3, Kraverie, Sawadee, Left Bank, Thanh Hoai, to name a few I can remember.

If I want Food Truck food, I'll get it and it's not like I'm taking anything away from anyone.

The Two Boots owner argument does not apply to me, and frankly sounds like BS

Posted on: 2015/2/24 1:32
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Hey Brick and Mortars,

When I want to sit down and have a relaxing meal outside my home, I'll visit you.

When I want a quick meal that I can take-away and eat in the plaza or at home, I visit a plaza vendor and/or a food truck. Just because you both serve food doesn't mean you both offer the same experience.

And if someone does want to sit down at a restaurant but prefers the food truck instead, that's on you, not them. When I want Satis, 30 Acres or Me Casa, a food truck is not going to stop me.

Posted on: 2015/2/23 17:59
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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I'm squarely on the side of the food trucks, as more options is always preferable.

I think the HDSID gums up a lot of this. They have a mission to help these business in Jersey City, and in a myopic manner the HDSID is helping their members in. So my question is why does the HDSID get this prime space to utilize? Wouldn't it be preferable to the city reclaiming the space and then managing the farmers markets?

Since Two Boots first started injecting his opinions on urban planning and how public space should be utilized, I've stopped going completely and I don't really miss it, and I was a once a week customer. I know several of my friends have stopped going as well because of the same concerns.

Posted on: 2015/2/23 13:31
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Posted on: 2015/2/23 13:26
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Aaron,

Just letting you know I completely agree with your argument. I'm going to make it a point to not get my food from the so called "farmers market" vendors and instead eat at your establishment. Your risk taking should be rewarded more than the farmers market vendors' johnny-come-lately business practices.

Posted on: 2015/2/23 11:58
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Sommerman wrote:
Just curious - are Tender Shoots and P&K members of the SID? I imagine they lose more business that any of the griping restos. Have they indicated that they would like the farmers moved out?

Personally, some of the prepared food vendors do a better job of things than I do. The schnitzel guy and the pork on a stick kids are delicious. An empanada at 5-ish cuts the hunger until dinner time (also Stella reminds me of Cinderella's fairy godmother). If we want to start controlling who can sell what where, we might as well join the EU.



Unfortunately, allowing special interests to lobby and obtain laws that increase their personal profit while harming the consumer is a very American thing.

Posted on: 2015/2/22 20:08
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Just curious - are Tender Shoots and P&K members of the SID? I imagine they lose more business that any of the griping restos. Have they indicated that they would like the farmers moved out?

Personally, some of the prepared food vendors do a better job of things than I do. The schnitzel guy and the pork on a stick kids are delicious. An empanada at 5-ish cuts the hunger until dinner time (also Stella reminds me of Cinderella's fairy godmother). If we want to start controlling who can sell what where, we might as well join the EU.


Posted on: 2015/2/22 19:28
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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sidewalks and plazas are for people, roads are for cars and trucks, so take a few parking spaces west of Grove St. on Columbus Dr. and put them out to bid for food trucks or a public market for that matter.

i do like the idea of public markets to be managed by a master lease holder or a city agency, but regardless put it out to bid. its not really an issue what they sell - goods, products, food, farm fresh or prepared. the issue is not subsidizing them.

if a space IS subsidized, it should be for a public good (at present the farmer's is designated as a pubic good), which is hard to make an argument for a food truck or prepared foods, so simple, create a public market for that purpose.

btw, participation in a SID is not voluntary nor is the financial contribution and the state funding for them was eliminated. but it will sort itself out. in the end, I believe the answer is in establishing a public market which they have in Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington.

Posted on: 2015/2/22 1:08
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TAQsmp wrote:
2 kids.
Poncho is obviously a fan of businesses in JC but...
it's not us.
TQDT does not condone posting anonymously. (Kudos to CoreyBraighterman. No Kill Bill avatars there Kiddo)
TQDT began as a taco truck therefore we have always been Pro-truck. In fact, they are all welcome to look into setting up shop at the Boys and Girls Club parking lot. Wouldn't mind in the least.
TQDT


Good to know. I would miss going to your places almost as much as I miss going to Barcade. Yes, this is my real name. You'd figure it'd be easier to spell, since... ya know... it's there in B&W

Posted on: 2015/2/22 0:21
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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geniusofthecrowd wrote:
I'm at a loss as to why these restaurants think there is a direct correlation to lost business because of the food options provided in the market. Here's a dose of reality, my wife and I buy food from there because we are looking for quick food options that we can eat at home which is usually during the weekdays when we don't have time to sit down at a restaurant. The market simply provides an option that the restaurants that are fighting this aren't providing. We give our money to these restaurants on weekends when we have time to go out for a meal and booze up.
But they simply need to recognize the market isn't direct competition, and if they want to get in on some of the revenues, then they need to adapt and have some offerings there rather than shutting it down.

Being slow during weekdays at a restaurant isn't anything new and yes it's a tough business to keep afloat, but please don't feel like taking away options from Jersey City residents is doing us any favors. And yes, my wife and I will think twice about spending our weekend dollars at any restaurant on this list.


+1

It's simply about choice. I'd like to see those food trucks on seamless/delivery/grubhub - I'd put a lot more business their way if I could.


Posted on: 2015/2/21 23:20
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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2 kids.
Poncho is obviously a fan of businesses in JC but...
it's not us.
TQDT does not condone posting anonymously. (Kudos to CoreyBraighterman. No Kill Bill avatars there Kiddo)
TQDT began as a taco truck therefore we have always been Pro-truck. In fact, they are all welcome to look into setting up shop at the Boys and Girls Club parking lot. Wouldn't mind in the least.
TQDT

Posted on: 2015/2/21 22:49
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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I'm at a loss as to why these restaurants think there is a direct correlation to lost business because of the food options provided in the market. Here's a dose of reality, my wife and I buy food from there because we are looking for quick food options that we can eat at home which is usually during the weekdays when we don't have time to sit down at a restaurant. The market simply provides an option that the restaurants that are fighting this aren't providing. We give our money to these restaurants on weekends when we have time to go out for a meal and booze up.
But they simply need to recognize the market isn't direct competition, and if they want to get in on some of the revenues, then they need to adapt and have some offerings there rather than shutting it down.

Being slow during weekdays at a restaurant isn't anything new and yes it's a tough business to keep afloat, but please don't feel like taking away options from Jersey City residents is doing us any favors. And yes, my wife and I will think twice about spending our weekend dollars at any restaurant on this list.

Posted on: 2015/2/21 22:09
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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BeatrixKiddo wrote:

Phil, don't you have multiple taco joints to run and like 3 kids to take care of? Why are you wasting your time on us classless JC folk?


Oh, poncho owns taqueria? Hey, Poncho, did you sign this, too? Or are you merely all for it. Stand up and let yourself be known, I'll stop visiting your locations as well. The latter attitude also makes me not want to visit any of your locations. Shame, I like your food, and I believe we met once or twice at the old music store in Hudson Mall, but if that's your attitude, then sayonara.

Posted on: 2015/2/21 21:26
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Quote:

caj11 wrote:
"1. Last year, twenty Downtown restaurants signed a letter to the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District (HDSID) asking that it end the sale of ?prepared foods? at the farmers? market. We asked that it convert the farmers? market back to its original form, namely a farmers? market offering local, farm-fresh produce and farm products. By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City"

This isn't New York City. There is no law saying a "farmers market" has to be the same way in Jersey City.

"3. The following twenty Downtown restaurants (in alphabetical order) have signed the letter: Barcade, Beechwood Caf?, Bon Chon Chicken, Broa, Cherry Pick, La Conguita, Downtown Yogurt, Dunkin Donuts, Grove Square Bistro, Gypsy Grill, Ibby?s, Left Bank Burger, The Little Sandwich Shop, McDonald?s, Orale, Park & Sixth, Raval, Subia?s, Subway, and Two Boots. Not all restaurants were approached, and thus this list should not be seen as exhaustive of our support."

Thank you for providing this list so I know where not to eat.

"4. The HDSID, which operates the Grove Plaza farmers? market, is an organization founded to improve business conditions for its members, i.e. for us. Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty. "

You may have a point there, but if the organization is not doing what you wanted it to, why not just drop out and quit paying membership fees to it?

"5. We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000 in sales from local brick-and-mortar restaurants to vendors at the farmers? market. These sales came directly out of the pockets of HDSID restaurants, many of which are small, mom-and-pop operations that can ill afford lost sales. The farmers? market was operated during our busiest dinnertime hours (many of us operate at a loss during the day) and at the most desirable location in Jersey City, literally cutting us off from our customers."

How did you come up with that number? Restaurant sales vary from year to year for a lot of reasons. New York City restaurants complained to no end when a smoking ban was first instituted in the city back in 1994 I think, and some restaurants did close, but whether it was because of the smoking ban is highly debatable.

"6. Last year, more than 66% of the vendors at the farmers? market came from outside of Jersey City, meaning that their businesses had almost no positive economic impact on Jersey City. These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents, pay Jersey City taxes, hire Jersey City contractors nor improve Jersey City properties. If you care about Jersey City?s development and fiscal health, this should matter to you."

Oh, give me a break on that one. So what. I can't believe that every restaurant on that list is owned by people who live in Jersey City, hires all local Jersey City residents and uses local Jersey City contractors. The only "Jersey City taxes" are property taxes, and you aren't paying those if you lease the space, your landlord is, and your landlord would pay those taxes regardless. Furthermore, four restaurants on that list, Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, Subway and BonChon are franchises which pay royalties to and are required to buy most of their raw materials from their out-of-state corporate franchisor. They aren't "local" at all. And for the other 34% of the vendors that you say do come from Jersey City, what do you have to say about them? What will happen to their businesses and what about their "fiscal health"?


"7. Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID. Incredibly, our own organization put them in direct competition with us, the very members to whom the HDSID owed a fiduciary duty of loyalty."


I'd be angry about that too, but I'd quit the organization and stop paying my dues. I'd form another organization with the similarly situated restaurants if I had to.

"8. We restaurants pay high market-rate rents to have the privilege of being near or on Grove Street. On the other hand, the fees paid by farmers? market vendors are not market rate but highly subsidized by Jersey City. That?s because the space is free to the HDSID, which then charges vendors a nominal amount ? just enough to raise the money it thinks it needs. Unlike our landlords, the HDSID does not have to pay a mortgage or realize a return on investment. Thus, it can set the rent at an artificially low price. Or, to put it differently, does anyone think that if the plaza were owned privately, the owner would only rent it out for a farmers? market eight hours a week and leave it empty for pedestrians the rest of the time? Of course not. The plaza would be a building, just like the buildings we are in, and those spaces that the vendors now use would be store fronts with full-time leases at market rates like we pay. And, we?d have no quarrel with it because we?d be competing fairly, not with businesses receiving a public subsidy that we don?t."

The expensive leases you pay are not anyone's problem but your own. You knew the market was there when you opened up shop. If you thought it was such a threat, why open a restaurant?

"9. We brick-and-mortar restaurants are always there for you and for Jersey City. Many people probably don?t realize that often, we lose money during the weekdays and late at night when there?s little or no foot traffic. But we are open."

How nice of you. Another BS line. You're open because therre is money to be made, you are not here on a charity mission or to do anything noble. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but don't consider opening a restaurant to be anything more than a money-making venture, because that's it is. You are not here to "serve your community" you are here to make a living, just like the food vendors.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted the list. I'll vote with my feet and dollars on this, consider yourselves victorious in lobbying away consumer choices and screwing over the community (about whom you say you care so much about).

Democracy in action folks - city council has to cater to yet another vocal minority that whined loudly enough. Maybe you can teach the taxi drivers, with their ratty rundown vehicles that barely hold together, a thing or two and drive Uber out of Jersey City next.


Wow ! Your way to into this ! Open a restaurant yourself and see how you feel about the same issue. Those who can ......



Phil, don't you have multiple taco joints to run and like 3 kids to take care of? Why are you wasting your time on us classless JC folk?

Posted on: 2015/2/21 21:10
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Dear jackass businesses who want to sabotage others at the expense of the community they reside in:

Thank you for having the balls to stand up for your own selfish greed. It takes real balls to say to the world "hey, I'm a selfish asshole and I don't care who knows it". I also like the fact that all these other businesses are now outed by the owner of 2 Boots. I wonder which of them didn't want to go public and are now less than thrilled to have their own selfish nonsense spilled to the world.

Your statements are full of selfish greed and other bullshit. I will miss going to a couple places on this list, but that's a perfectly adequate trade-off to combat your lies, half-truths, red herrings and other garbage that you used to help push this crap through.

Quote:
We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000

Resized Image


Quote:
By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City

New York City has well over 20,000 restaurants. Jersey City has roughly 700 (514 on TripAdvisor, and I'm adding in more since they undoubtedly don't have everyone). If we are to take JC's population (optimistically 400k vs 10mil NYC) and make that proportional, JC would be at the very least 5,000 eateries short. There are many thousands of carts and vendors throughout the city and at an absurd level proportionally to what JC has. If you're going to make comparisons to NYC, you're going to fall short, because NYC has prepared food vendors aplenty.

Recap: NYC has more restaurants AND prepared food vendors of all types than Jersey City, even when increasing the proportions to match population. Argument is invalid. GFY.

Quote:
Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty.


Clearly either you need to leave, the HDSID should revise its charter (because there's obviously public demand for the trucks), or another organization not beholden to you donkeys should run the market.

Quote:
many of us operate at a loss during the day


That's your fk'n problem not ours. There are plenty of restaurants in the world that close in the afternoon in between the lunch and dinner hours. If you choose to operate at a loss, that's your own fault.

Quote:
These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents

All of your employees live in JC?

Quote:
pay Jersey City taxes

They're not paying the taxes that a business is supposed to pay? Sounds like a problem for the government and the IRS to look into. Last I checked, all businesses that operate in any locale pay the taxes they're supposed to collect, including sales tax. If they're not, that's something the government needs to follow up on. Otherwise, you're full of crap - they're paying their taxes.

Quote:
hire Jersey City contractors

Since when does every B&M owner hire a contractor in JC, as opposed to Bayonne, Kearny or somewhere else?
Red herring line full of bullshit, much like the others.

Quote:
Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID.

Off the top of my head, Legal Beans, Stella's Empanadas and Golden Grille are in JC. That's just off the top of my head.

Quote:
All of point 8

Then don't rent. Buy the building or cry somewhere else that gives a fk because I certainly don't. The market was there before you, and so was I. You want to pay huge rent to run a pizza business? Go for it. You're the one screwing with what the residents of this town want because you want to make a buck by squeezing out competition. Screw yourself.

Quote:
All of point 9

Bullshit. You're not running a charity, you're making money. If you weren't making money, you wouldn't be in business. If you're doing a pizza place out of charity, you're an idiot. Also, you are full of shit - there are plenty of businesses, yours included, that doesn't contribute to every Tom, Dick and Harry looking for a 'social' handout.

Quote:
But competition must be fair and unsubsidized. It must come from business people who have to play by the same set of rules.
It is actually completely fair. The only thing you even have a remote beef about is your own little club went and competed against you. Food trucks and vendors are not restaurants. Horse and buggy carts are not cars. Duane Reade is not a supermarket. A locksmith is not Home Depot. They pay their permits? They pay their taxes? Then they have every fkn right to exist as you. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.

Through word of mouth, three more of my own friends won't be going to any of these places anymore, least of all yours. I encourage all the people pissed off by your nonsense to use that lovely bit of effective advertising known as word-of-mouth, now easily accessible via social media, to discourage people from eating at these places. Who wants to go to Kraverie, 30 Acres, Talde/Cuccino's, Koro Koro, Big Chef, Taqueria, Pancake Factory, Union Republic, White Star, Me Casa, Thanh Hoai, Rustique, Sam AM, Grand Sichuan, Buon Appetito, GP's, Sawadee, O'Haras, etc?

Posted on: 2015/2/21 19:16
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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caj11 wrote:
"1. Last year, twenty Downtown restaurants signed a letter to the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District (HDSID) asking that it end the sale of ?prepared foods? at the farmers? market. We asked that it convert the farmers? market back to its original form, namely a farmers? market offering local, farm-fresh produce and farm products. By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City"

This isn't New York City. There is no law saying a "farmers market" has to be the same way in Jersey City.

"3. The following twenty Downtown restaurants (in alphabetical order) have signed the letter: Barcade, Beechwood Caf?, Bon Chon Chicken, Broa, Cherry Pick, La Conguita, Downtown Yogurt, Dunkin Donuts, Grove Square Bistro, Gypsy Grill, Ibby?s, Left Bank Burger, The Little Sandwich Shop, McDonald?s, Orale, Park & Sixth, Raval, Subia?s, Subway, and Two Boots. Not all restaurants were approached, and thus this list should not be seen as exhaustive of our support."

Thank you for providing this list so I know where not to eat.

"4. The HDSID, which operates the Grove Plaza farmers? market, is an organization founded to improve business conditions for its members, i.e. for us. Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty. "

You may have a point there, but if the organization is not doing what you wanted it to, why not just drop out and quit paying membership fees to it?

"5. We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000 in sales from local brick-and-mortar restaurants to vendors at the farmers? market. These sales came directly out of the pockets of HDSID restaurants, many of which are small, mom-and-pop operations that can ill afford lost sales. The farmers? market was operated during our busiest dinnertime hours (many of us operate at a loss during the day) and at the most desirable location in Jersey City, literally cutting us off from our customers."

How did you come up with that number? Restaurant sales vary from year to year for a lot of reasons. New York City restaurants complained to no end when a smoking ban was first instituted in the city back in 1994 I think, and some restaurants did close, but whether it was because of the smoking ban is highly debatable.

"6. Last year, more than 66% of the vendors at the farmers? market came from outside of Jersey City, meaning that their businesses had almost no positive economic impact on Jersey City. These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents, pay Jersey City taxes, hire Jersey City contractors nor improve Jersey City properties. If you care about Jersey City?s development and fiscal health, this should matter to you."

Oh, give me a break on that one. So what. I can't believe that every restaurant on that list is owned by people who live in Jersey City, hires all local Jersey City residents and uses local Jersey City contractors. The only "Jersey City taxes" are property taxes, and you aren't paying those if you lease the space, your landlord is, and your landlord would pay those taxes regardless. Furthermore, four restaurants on that list, Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, Subway and BonChon are franchises which pay royalties to and are required to buy most of their raw materials from their out-of-state corporate franchisor. They aren't "local" at all. And for the other 34% of the vendors that you say do come from Jersey City, what do you have to say about them? What will happen to their businesses and what about their "fiscal health"?


"7. Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID. Incredibly, our own organization put them in direct competition with us, the very members to whom the HDSID owed a fiduciary duty of loyalty."


I'd be angry about that too, but I'd quit the organization and stop paying my dues. I'd form another organization with the similarly situated restaurants if I had to.

"8. We restaurants pay high market-rate rents to have the privilege of being near or on Grove Street. On the other hand, the fees paid by farmers? market vendors are not market rate but highly subsidized by Jersey City. That?s because the space is free to the HDSID, which then charges vendors a nominal amount ? just enough to raise the money it thinks it needs. Unlike our landlords, the HDSID does not have to pay a mortgage or realize a return on investment. Thus, it can set the rent at an artificially low price. Or, to put it differently, does anyone think that if the plaza were owned privately, the owner would only rent it out for a farmers? market eight hours a week and leave it empty for pedestrians the rest of the time? Of course not. The plaza would be a building, just like the buildings we are in, and those spaces that the vendors now use would be store fronts with full-time leases at market rates like we pay. And, we?d have no quarrel with it because we?d be competing fairly, not with businesses receiving a public subsidy that we don?t."

The expensive leases you pay are not anyone's problem but your own. You knew the market was there when you opened up shop. If you thought it was such a threat, why open a restaurant?

"9. We brick-and-mortar restaurants are always there for you and for Jersey City. Many people probably don?t realize that often, we lose money during the weekdays and late at night when there?s little or no foot traffic. But we are open."

How nice of you. Another BS line. You're open because therre is money to be made, you are not here on a charity mission or to do anything noble. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but don't consider opening a restaurant to be anything more than a money-making venture, because that's it is. You are not here to "serve your community" you are here to make a living, just like the food vendors.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted the list. I'll vote with my feet and dollars on this, consider yourselves victorious in lobbying away consumer choices and screwing over the community (about whom you say you care so much about).

Democracy in action folks - city council has to cater to yet another vocal minority that whined loudly enough. Maybe you can teach the taxi drivers, with their ratty rundown vehicles that barely hold together, a thing or two and drive Uber out of Jersey City next.


Wow ! Your way to into this ! Open a restaurant yourself and see how you feel about the same issue. Those who can ......

Posted on: 2015/2/21 17:04
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Anytime that I would have gone there to pick something up was specifically to do that and wouldn't have gone to any one on that list if the trucks/vendors were not there, I think that $ lost number is a crock.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 21:05
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"1. Last year, twenty Downtown restaurants signed a letter to the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District (HDSID) asking that it end the sale of ?prepared foods? at the farmers? market. We asked that it convert the farmers? market back to its original form, namely a farmers? market offering local, farm-fresh produce and farm products. By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City"

This isn't New York City. There is no law saying a "farmers market" has to be the same way in Jersey City.

"3. The following twenty Downtown restaurants (in alphabetical order) have signed the letter: Barcade, Beechwood Caf?, Bon Chon Chicken, Broa, Cherry Pick, La Conguita, Downtown Yogurt, Dunkin Donuts, Grove Square Bistro, Gypsy Grill, Ibby?s, Left Bank Burger, The Little Sandwich Shop, McDonald?s, Orale, Park & Sixth, Raval, Subia?s, Subway, and Two Boots. Not all restaurants were approached, and thus this list should not be seen as exhaustive of our support."

Thank you for providing this list so I know where not to eat.

"4. The HDSID, which operates the Grove Plaza farmers? market, is an organization founded to improve business conditions for its members, i.e. for us. Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty. "

You may have a point there, but if the organization is not doing what you wanted it to, why not just drop out and quit paying membership fees to it?

"5. We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000 in sales from local brick-and-mortar restaurants to vendors at the farmers? market. These sales came directly out of the pockets of HDSID restaurants, many of which are small, mom-and-pop operations that can ill afford lost sales. The farmers? market was operated during our busiest dinnertime hours (many of us operate at a loss during the day) and at the most desirable location in Jersey City, literally cutting us off from our customers."

How did you come up with that number? Restaurant sales vary from year to year for a lot of reasons. New York City restaurants complained to no end when a smoking ban was first instituted in the city back in 1994 I think, and some restaurants did close, but whether it was because of the smoking ban is highly debatable.

"6. Last year, more than 66% of the vendors at the farmers? market came from outside of Jersey City, meaning that their businesses had almost no positive economic impact on Jersey City. These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents, pay Jersey City taxes, hire Jersey City contractors nor improve Jersey City properties. If you care about Jersey City?s development and fiscal health, this should matter to you."

Oh, give me a break on that one. So what. I can't believe that every restaurant on that list is owned by people who live in Jersey City, hires all local Jersey City residents and uses local Jersey City contractors. The only "Jersey City taxes" are property taxes, and you aren't paying those if you lease the space, your landlord is, and your landlord would pay those taxes regardless. Furthermore, four restaurants on that list, Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, Subway and BonChon are franchises which pay royalties to and are required to buy most of their raw materials from their out-of-state corporate franchisor. They aren't "local" at all. And for the other 34% of the vendors that you say do come from Jersey City, what do you have to say about them? What will happen to their businesses and what about their "fiscal health"?


"7. Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID. Incredibly, our own organization put them in direct competition with us, the very members to whom the HDSID owed a fiduciary duty of loyalty."


I'd be angry about that too, but I'd quit the organization and stop paying my dues. I'd form another organization with the similarly situated restaurants if I had to.

"8. We restaurants pay high market-rate rents to have the privilege of being near or on Grove Street. On the other hand, the fees paid by farmers? market vendors are not market rate but highly subsidized by Jersey City. That?s because the space is free to the HDSID, which then charges vendors a nominal amount ? just enough to raise the money it thinks it needs. Unlike our landlords, the HDSID does not have to pay a mortgage or realize a return on investment. Thus, it can set the rent at an artificially low price. Or, to put it differently, does anyone think that if the plaza were owned privately, the owner would only rent it out for a farmers? market eight hours a week and leave it empty for pedestrians the rest of the time? Of course not. The plaza would be a building, just like the buildings we are in, and those spaces that the vendors now use would be store fronts with full-time leases at market rates like we pay. And, we?d have no quarrel with it because we?d be competing fairly, not with businesses receiving a public subsidy that we don?t."

The expensive leases you pay are not anyone's problem but your own. You knew the market was there when you opened up shop. If you thought it was such a threat, why open a restaurant?

"9. We brick-and-mortar restaurants are always there for you and for Jersey City. Many people probably don?t realize that often, we lose money during the weekdays and late at night when there?s little or no foot traffic. But we are open."

How nice of you. Another BS line. You're open because therre is money to be made, you are not here on a charity mission or to do anything noble. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but don't consider opening a restaurant to be anything more than a money-making venture, because that's it is. You are not here to "serve your community" you are here to make a living, just like the food vendors.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted the list. I'll vote with my feet and dollars on this, consider yourselves victorious in lobbying away consumer choices and screwing over the community (about whom you say you care so much about).

Democracy in action folks - city council has to cater to yet another vocal minority that whined loudly enough. Maybe you can teach the taxi drivers, with their ratty rundown vehicles that barely hold together, a thing or two and drive Uber out of Jersey City next.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 21:03
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Aaron of Two Boots, you write:

"The up-front costs are huge, the hours long, and the chance of financial success always in doubt. I can speak for all of the signers of the letter when I say that we love serving you, our customers, and hope that you will continue to support us. May restaurants continue to open and provide us all with delicious food and great places to gather and to eat!"

What makes you think any of this is not true for food truck owners?

I don't have a problem with restaurant owners looking out for their own best interests, seeking to increase their profits any way they can. But I do have a problem when you piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Bottom line is the people of Jersey City benefit with the increased choices that food trucks in Grove Street Plaza offer (every night, not just during the Farmer's Market). Food truck owners benefit as well. The only ones who arguably lose are restaurant owners, who probably do lose some sales to the trucks.

Judging by the ever increasing amount of new restaurants in Jersey City, I doubt the financial threat posed by food trucks is any sort of meaningful impediment. So this situation really comes down to a handful of restaurant owners who are hurting the greater community in order to increase their own profits.

That's your right. But you should own up to it, not pretend like your successful lobbying efforts are doing some sort of service for the community.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 20:10
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Dear Friends:

I?d like those of you reading this thread to better understand the underlying facts and the position of Downtown businesses on this issue. I apologize for the length, but there are many charges being made and they must be addressed.

1. Last year, twenty Downtown restaurants signed a letter to the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District (HDSID) asking that it end the sale of ?prepared foods? at the farmers? market. We asked that it convert the farmers? market back to its original form, namely a farmers? market offering local, farm-fresh produce and farm products. By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City, which do not allow the sale of prepared foods, i.e. ready-to-go food served with plates and utensils for immediate consumption, and it would have stringent rules ensuring that the products sold are both local and healthful. Please go to grownyc.org.
2. The signatories to the letter did not single out food trucks but asked that all vending of prepared foods ? irrespective of platform - end.
3. The following twenty Downtown restaurants (in alphabetical order) have signed the letter: Barcade, Beechwood Caf?, Bon Chon Chicken, Broa, Cherry Pick, La Conguita, Downtown Yogurt, Dunkin Donuts, Grove Square Bistro, Gypsy Grill, Ibby?s, Left Bank Burger, The Little Sandwich Shop, McDonald?s, Orale, Park & Sixth, Raval, Subia?s, Subway, and Two Boots. Not all restaurants were approached, and thus this list should not be seen as exhaustive of our support.
4. The HDSID, which operates the Grove Plaza farmers? market, is an organization founded to improve business conditions for its members, i.e. for us. Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty.
5. We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000 in sales from local brick-and-mortar restaurants to vendors at the farmers? market. These sales came directly out of the pockets of HDSID restaurants, many of which are small, mom-and-pop operations that can ill afford lost sales. The farmers? market was operated during our busiest dinnertime hours (many of us operate at a loss during the day) and at the most desirable location in Jersey City, literally cutting us off from our customers.
6. Last year, more than 66% of the vendors at the farmers? market came from outside of Jersey City, meaning that their businesses had almost no positive economic impact on Jersey City. These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents, pay Jersey City taxes, hire Jersey City contractors nor improve Jersey City properties. If you care about Jersey City?s development and fiscal health, this should matter to you.
7. Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID. Incredibly, our own organization put them in direct competition with us, the very members to whom the HDSID owed a fiduciary duty of loyalty.
8. We restaurants pay high market-rate rents to have the privilege of being near or on Grove Street. On the other hand, the fees paid by farmers? market vendors are not market rate but highly subsidized by Jersey City. That?s because the space is free to the HDSID, which then charges vendors a nominal amount ? just enough to raise the money it thinks it needs. Unlike our landlords, the HDSID does not have to pay a mortgage or realize a return on investment. Thus, it can set the rent at an artificially low price. Or, to put it differently, does anyone think that if the plaza were owned privately, the owner would only rent it out for a farmers? market eight hours a week and leave it empty for pedestrians the rest of the time? Of course not. The plaza would be a building, just like the buildings we are in, and those spaces that the vendors now use would be store fronts with full-time leases at market rates like we pay. And, we?d have no quarrel with it because we?d be competing fairly, not with businesses receiving a public subsidy that we don?t.
9. We brick-and-mortar restaurants are always there for you and for Jersey City. Many people probably don?t realize that often, we lose money during the weekdays and late at night when there?s little or no foot traffic. But we are open. When the weather is cold, we?re still open. When a local charity, arts-group or civic organization needs a donation, we?re there. There are so many ways that we provide intangible (and material) benefits to the community. Alas, this cannot be said for the vendors at the farmers? market. Not because they are bad people. They simply don?t have the same obligations and relationship to the community.
10. None of the restaurants that have signed the letter are afraid of or against competition. All any objective person need do is take a look. Name any Downtown restaurant, and there are multiple competitors. As I think about Two Boots, the notion makes me laugh when I contemplate my next-door neighbor, Porta, or the myriad other pizzerias that have opened. As business people, we embrace and encourage competition because it makes us better and improves the Downtown. But competition must be fair and unsubsidized. It must come from business people who have to play by the same set of rules. And this unfair competition certainly must not come from our own business improvement district.

I know that a handful of you will stop patronizing Two Boots as a result of my outspoken position on this issue. That is your right, and I accept the risk. However, I wrote this letter with the confidence that most readers of JClist are fair minded and understand just how difficult running a restaurant is. The up-front costs are huge, the hours long, and the chance of financial success always in doubt. I can speak for all of the signers of the letter when I say that we love serving you, our customers, and hope that you will continue to support us. May restaurants continue to open and provide us all with delicious food and great places to gather and to eat!

Aaron Morrill
Owner, Two Boots Jersey City


Well said but you got one thing wrong:
"...most readers of JClist are fair minded..."
sh!t, the only place that's worse might be Reddit.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 19:24
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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This is a well-reasoned argument, except that I'm not sure about the validity of the $250,000 number - where it comes from, or whether it's reasonable to assume all that money would have otherwise been spent in a restaurant. I know that there have been evenings when I have bought an empanada at the market as I exited the PATH, and I wouldn't have gone to a restaurant instead; I would have gone home and cooked something. Is that part of the $250,000 in lost sales?

Posted on: 2015/2/20 19:20
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Dear Friends:

I?d like those of you reading this thread to better understand the underlying facts and the position of Downtown businesses on this issue. I apologize for the length, but there are many charges being made and they must be addressed.

1. Last year, twenty Downtown restaurants signed a letter to the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District (HDSID) asking that it end the sale of ?prepared foods? at the farmers? market. We asked that it convert the farmers? market back to its original form, namely a farmers? market offering local, farm-fresh produce and farm products. By doing this, our farmers? market would be similar those in New York City, which do not allow the sale of prepared foods, i.e. ready-to-go food served with plates and utensils for immediate consumption, and it would have stringent rules ensuring that the products sold are both local and healthful. Please go to grownyc.org.
2. The signatories to the letter did not single out food trucks but asked that all vending of prepared foods ? irrespective of platform - end.
3. The following twenty Downtown restaurants (in alphabetical order) have signed the letter: Barcade, Beechwood Caf?, Bon Chon Chicken, Broa, Cherry Pick, La Conguita, Downtown Yogurt, Dunkin Donuts, Grove Square Bistro, Gypsy Grill, Ibby?s, Left Bank Burger, The Little Sandwich Shop, McDonald?s, Orale, Park & Sixth, Raval, Subia?s, Subway, and Two Boots. Not all restaurants were approached, and thus this list should not be seen as exhaustive of our support.
4. The HDSID, which operates the Grove Plaza farmers? market, is an organization founded to improve business conditions for its members, i.e. for us. Accordingly, it is legally required to act ?loyally? to us. By operating a business that competes with its own members, the HDSID has been violating this duty.
5. We estimate that last year, the farmers? market diverted approximately $250,000 in sales from local brick-and-mortar restaurants to vendors at the farmers? market. These sales came directly out of the pockets of HDSID restaurants, many of which are small, mom-and-pop operations that can ill afford lost sales. The farmers? market was operated during our busiest dinnertime hours (many of us operate at a loss during the day) and at the most desirable location in Jersey City, literally cutting us off from our customers.
6. Last year, more than 66% of the vendors at the farmers? market came from outside of Jersey City, meaning that their businesses had almost no positive economic impact on Jersey City. These businesses did not hire Jersey City residents, pay Jersey City taxes, hire Jersey City contractors nor improve Jersey City properties. If you care about Jersey City?s development and fiscal health, this should matter to you.
7. Almost 100% of vendors at the farmers? market came from outside the HDSID. Incredibly, our own organization put them in direct competition with us, the very members to whom the HDSID owed a fiduciary duty of loyalty.
8. We restaurants pay high market-rate rents to have the privilege of being near or on Grove Street. On the other hand, the fees paid by farmers? market vendors are not market rate but highly subsidized by Jersey City. That?s because the space is free to the HDSID, which then charges vendors a nominal amount ? just enough to raise the money it thinks it needs. Unlike our landlords, the HDSID does not have to pay a mortgage or realize a return on investment. Thus, it can set the rent at an artificially low price. Or, to put it differently, does anyone think that if the plaza were owned privately, the owner would only rent it out for a farmers? market eight hours a week and leave it empty for pedestrians the rest of the time? Of course not. The plaza would be a building, just like the buildings we are in, and those spaces that the vendors now use would be store fronts with full-time leases at market rates like we pay. And, we?d have no quarrel with it because we?d be competing fairly, not with businesses receiving a public subsidy that we don?t.
9. We brick-and-mortar restaurants are always there for you and for Jersey City. Many people probably don?t realize that often, we lose money during the weekdays and late at night when there?s little or no foot traffic. But we are open. When the weather is cold, we?re still open. When a local charity, arts-group or civic organization needs a donation, we?re there. There are so many ways that we provide intangible (and material) benefits to the community. Alas, this cannot be said for the vendors at the farmers? market. Not because they are bad people. They simply don?t have the same obligations and relationship to the community.
10. None of the restaurants that have signed the letter are afraid of or against competition. All any objective person need do is take a look. Name any Downtown restaurant, and there are multiple competitors. As I think about Two Boots, the notion makes me laugh when I contemplate my next-door neighbor, Porta, or the myriad other pizzerias that have opened. As business people, we embrace and encourage competition because it makes us better and improves the Downtown. But competition must be fair and unsubsidized. It must come from business people who have to play by the same set of rules. And this unfair competition certainly must not come from our own business improvement district.

I know that a handful of you will stop patronizing Two Boots as a result of my outspoken position on this issue. That is your right, and I accept the risk. However, I wrote this letter with the confidence that most readers of JClist are fair minded and understand just how difficult running a restaurant is. The up-front costs are huge, the hours long, and the chance of financial success always in doubt. I can speak for all of the signers of the letter when I say that we love serving you, our customers, and hope that you will continue to support us. May restaurants continue to open and provide us all with delicious food and great places to gather and to eat!

Aaron Morrill
Owner, Two Boots Jersey City

Posted on: 2015/2/20 18:41
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Quote:

Poncho11 wrote:
Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

rescuelife wrote:
I agree that we should compile a list of known businesses who pushed this agenda which harms the people of Jersey City and limits choice. I for one will not give any of these businesses a penny going forward.

If you know more reply and copy/paste the list below with any new additions. So far:

Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's


Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's
Park and Sixth
Orale
La Conguita
Barcade
Beachwood Caf?
Little Sandwich Shop

The last six were mentioned by Two Boots on a previous thread as being part of the group. Barcade totally shocks me and makes no sense. Seems to me that after eating something off the food trucks or booths, washing it down with a microbrew at Barcade would be great. They don't even have much of a food menu. Ah well, I mostly just play video games there anyway, after I've had a stressful day.


We should make sure the list is accurate



You know what ! Stores won't miss you, And the trucks will go else where and won't be missed in the end. And when the trucks are gone, you will be knocking people over to get in and get your seat at the local restaurants, and Bars.



Ok Phil, whatever you say. Jersey City is so classless that you opened 2 stores here. Tool lmfao

Posted on: 2015/2/20 0:37
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Quote:

Poncho11 wrote:
Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

rescuelife wrote:
I agree that we should compile a list of known businesses who pushed this agenda which harms the people of Jersey City and limits choice. I for one will not give any of these businesses a penny going forward.

If you know more reply and copy/paste the list below with any new additions. So far:

Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's


Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's
Park and Sixth
Orale
La Conguita
Barcade
Beachwood Caf?
Little Sandwich Shop

The last six were mentioned by Two Boots on a previous thread as being part of the group. Barcade totally shocks me and makes no sense. Seems to me that after eating something off the food trucks or booths, washing it down with a microbrew at Barcade would be great. They don't even have much of a food menu. Ah well, I mostly just play video games there anyway, after I've had a stressful day.


We should make sure the list is accurate



You know what ! Stores won't miss you,


That's fine. The feeling is mutual, then. But the stores will miss me, because otherwise, they wouldn't be afraid of the food trucks.

Quote:
And the trucks will go else where and won't be missed in the end.


This makes no sense. If the trucks wouldn't be missed, then insecure business owners wouldn't be whining to push out their competition.

Quote:
And when the trucks are gone, you will be knocking people over to get in and get your seat at the local restaurants, and Bars.


I'll frequent the establishments that didn't push out the food trucks.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 23:23
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

rescuelife wrote:
I agree that we should compile a list of known businesses who pushed this agenda which harms the people of Jersey City and limits choice. I for one will not give any of these businesses a penny going forward.

If you know more reply and copy/paste the list below with any new additions. So far:

Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's


Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's
Park and Sixth
Orale
La Conguita
Barcade
Beachwood Caf?
Little Sandwich Shop

The last six were mentioned by Two Boots on a previous thread as being part of the group. Barcade totally shocks me and makes no sense. Seems to me that after eating something off the food trucks or booths, washing it down with a microbrew at Barcade would be great. They don't even have much of a food menu. Ah well, I mostly just play video games there anyway, after I've had a stressful day.


We should make sure the list is accurate



You know what ! Stores won't miss you, And the trucks will go else where and won't be missed in the end. And when the trucks are gone, you will be knocking people over to get in and get your seat at the local restaurants, and Bars.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 23:14
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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CatDog wrote:
If you actually compile a full list of businesses that have opposed something you like, or promoted something you dislike and then promise to never visit them, you are going to very quickly find out that you can't visit any businesses in town. It looks like you're already running into that problem, and already backtracking to justify giving them business.

I'm not saying that I agree with the push to rid the town of food trucks - it's been frustrating seeing the trucks disappear. But don't get delusional and kid yourself that you're actually going to follow through on this, unless you somehow have the dedication to investigate every single online and brick/mortar store you come across to find out if they've supported something scummy in the past. I'm willing to bet everyone here talking about boycotting businesses don't think twice about ordering things from Amazon.


Speak for yourself

Posted on: 2015/2/19 18:25
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

rescuelife wrote:
I agree that we should compile a list of known businesses who pushed this agenda which harms the people of Jersey City and limits choice. I for one will not give any of these businesses a penny going forward.

If you know more reply and copy/paste the list below with any new additions. So far:

Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's


Two Boots
Bistro/Coffeeshop
Ibby's
Park and Sixth
Orale
La Conguita
Barcade
Beachwood Caf?
Little Sandwich Shop

The last six were mentioned by Two Boots on a previous thread as being part of the group. Barcade totally shocks me and makes no sense. Seems to me that after eating something off the food trucks or booths, washing it down with a microbrew at Barcade would be great. They don't even have much of a food menu. Ah well, I mostly just play video games there anyway, after I've had a stressful day.


We should make sure the list is accurate

Posted on: 2015/2/19 18:24
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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CatDog wrote:
If you actually compile a full list of businesses that have opposed something you like, or promoted something you dislike and then promise to never visit them, you are going to very quickly find out that you can't visit any businesses in town. It looks like you're already running into that problem, and already backtracking to justify giving them business.

I'm not saying that I agree with the push to rid the town of food trucks - it's been frustrating seeing the trucks disappear. But don't get delusional and kid yourself that you're actually going to follow through on this, unless you somehow have the dedication to investigate every single online and brick/mortar store you come across to find out if they've supported something scummy in the past. I'm willing to bet everyone here talking about boycotting businesses don't think twice about ordering things from Amazon.


1. I know several places I frequent regularly who expressly did NOT support this initiative, so no, I am not running out of places to go. And the list I see so far is not close to the reality you say will happen. ("you are going to very quickly find out that you can't visit any businesses in town")

2. I am not delusional and have not visited the places I knew supported this initiative even once.

3. If amazon impacted my life in Jersey City in this way I would boycott them too!

Posted on: 2015/2/19 17:29
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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CatDog wrote:
If you actually compile a full list of businesses that have opposed something you like, or promoted something you dislike and then promise to never visit them, you are going to very quickly find out that you can't visit any businesses in town. It looks like you're already running into that problem, and already backtracking to justify giving them business.

I'm not saying that I agree with the push to rid the town of food trucks - it's been frustrating seeing the trucks disappear. But don't get delusional and kid yourself that you're actually going to follow through on this, unless you somehow have the dedication to investigate every single online and brick/mortar store you come across to find out if they've supported something scummy in the past. I'm willing to bet everyone here talking about boycotting businesses don't think twice about ordering things from Amazon.


Believe me, it won't be the end of the world if I quit playing video games and drinking beer at Barcade. Haven't had the time lately anyway. I can easily follow through on this if I have the names of all 17 restaurants, because there are a lot more than 17 good restaurants in Jersey City. Whether other people will follow through, I don't know.

Yes, I order off of Amazon, but there are other online retailers if Amazon pissed me off about something.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:29
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If you actually compile a full list of businesses that have opposed something you like, or promoted something you dislike and then promise to never visit them, you are going to very quickly find out that you can't visit any businesses in town. It looks like you're already running into that problem, and already backtracking to justify giving them business.

I'm not saying that I agree with the push to rid the town of food trucks - it's been frustrating seeing the trucks disappear. But don't get delusional and kid yourself that you're actually going to follow through on this, unless you somehow have the dedication to investigate every single online and brick/mortar store you come across to find out if they've supported something scummy in the past. I'm willing to bet everyone here talking about boycotting businesses don't think twice about ordering things from Amazon.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:10
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