trambone wrote:
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snowflake20 wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
I am no Christie fan, but I love this idea and I don't even have children. I think most parents will be open to this idea. The reasons why America?s students enjoy around two months off every summer probably aren't? based on some archaic, farm-based education schedule, as many people believe. Its the money, yea that's right the money.

No. Sorry, but I am not behind this. My kids are in school long enough. By the end of the day they are exhausted. They get home by around 4. Homework is never 20 minutes like they say it is, it usually takes an hour. Then I have to make dinner and they eat and go to bed. They barely have time to go outside and play. No fucking way would I want my kid to be in school longer. Awful idea.

4?!? I never got home before 6 after rehearsals and practices.

Pebble wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Then I guess it's a perfect storm created and continued by the left-the NJEA and special interest unions, and the inner-city Democratic machines (with a few hiccups in JC, but historical in Newark/East/Oranges, Camden, Atlantic City, and towns that are Abbott districts).

But what about this?
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Monroe wrote:
And, taken on average, NJ schools are among the best in the country, usually ranked 3rd out of 50.

If having some of the top public schools in the country is ?a perfect storm? then I?ll take it every day of the week.

Monroe wrote:
Then I guess it's a perfect storm created and continued by the left-the NJEA and special interest unions, and the inner-city Democratic machines (with a few hiccups in JC, but historical in Newark/East/Oranges, Camden, Atlantic City, and towns that are Abbott districts).

Monroe wrote:
And, taken on average, NJ schools are among the best in the country, usually ranked 3rd out of 50.

Monroe wrote:
Then I guess it's a perfect storm created and continued by the left-the NJEA and special interest unions, and the inner-city Democratic machines (with a few hiccups in JC, but historical in Newark/East/Oranges, Camden, Atlantic City, and towns that are Abbott districts).
...

Monroe wrote:
Nope, I assume you picked the most salient point to highlight.

Feel free to summarize if you'd like.

http://www.broadprize.org/crisis/bureaucracy.html

Bureaucratic systems, policies and practices that have been built up over decades in inner-city school districts have often led to fewer resources that actually reach the classroom, prevented teachers from receiving the support they need to meet individual student needs, and disheartened many people in and around these systems, giving them little faith that conditions will improve.

Teachers feel disempowered. Students feel apathetic. Parents feel frustrated. Taxpayers are in the dark.

No one is to blame, but bureaucratic challenges must be addressed if we are to improve America?s public schools.

While some urban school systems have overcome a number of these challenges, the following ?75 Examples of How Bureaucracy Stands in the Way of America?s Students and Teachers? represents common challenges in large urban school districts we have visited, researched and worked with over the last decade. These challenges help explain why:

Resources often don?t reach the classroom
Teachers often don?t receive the support they need, and many talented Americans don?t enter the profession at all
Policies and procedures ? which may be designed to comply with laws and regulations ? often don?t allow the school system to pursue its core mission: advancing student achievement

74. Many elected officials, who are not aware of the scope of hurdles facing these systems and/or whose campaigns were funded by special interests neglect this crisis altogether, or pass laws that attempt to fix one issue (e.g., class size reduction) but which inadvertently cause additional bureaucratic problems (e.g., hiring enough effective teachers to meet the class size mandate).

Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Saying that Finland has young students from Estonia, Yugoslavia, Russia, and Somalia is similar to the varied ethnicities found in JC hilarious.

Other than the small number of Somali kids the rest are not too different ethnically, are they?

The difference isn't in the numbers, but that other countries doesn't use it as an excuse for failure, as you and others seem to do.

http://www.broadprize.org/crisis/bureaucracy.html expresses it well...

31. Teachers expect less of students with certain backgrounds, income levels or other family variables and don?t challenge them as much, which means those students never have the opportunity to reach their full potential.

Blame the single moms, blame ethnicity, blame wasteful spending, blame overpaid teachers, blame bad parents, whatever - then support extra hours that addresses none of the real problems...

Seriously - have a read of the link above and tell us how longer hours would help address any of these issues?

Is your point to now blame the teachers for the achievement gap because they don't challenge the students enough?

dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Saying that Finland has young students from Estonia, Yugoslavia, Russia, and Somalia is similar to the varied ethnicities found in JC hilarious.

Other than the small number of Somali kids the rest are not too different ethnically, are they?

The difference isn't in the numbers, but that other countries doesn't use it as an excuse for failure, as you and others seem to do.

http://www.broadprize.org/crisis/bureaucracy.html expresses it well...

31. Teachers expect less of students with certain backgrounds, income levels or other family variables and don?t challenge them as much, which means those students never have the opportunity to reach their full potential.

Blame the single moms, blame ethnicity, blame wasteful spending, blame overpaid teachers, blame bad parents, whatever - then support extra hours that addresses none of the real problems...

Seriously - have a read of the link above and tell us how longer hours would help address any of these issues?

Monroe wrote:
Saying that Finland has young students from Estonia, Yugoslavia, Russia, and Somalia is similar to the varied ethnicities found in JC hilarious.

Other than the small number of Somali kids the rest are not too different ethnically, are they?

Finland and South Korea succeed because it's much easier to teach when there isn't a lot of diversity among the students.

Monroe wrote:
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jc344 wrote:
The people that are using the teachers salaries and benefits as a reason to believe that extending the school day and year is the right thing to do are illogical and inane to say the least. If people are so concerned with Teachers salaries and benefits , leave your current job and go back to school and get the necessary degree to become a teacher!! It's time people start worrying about themselves and their pay/benefits and not worry about others salaries/benefits. I am not a Teacher, nor do I have any desire to be one. Like I previously stated however I am a parent of two kids that although they go to Catholic School( It follows the Public School district schedule with the exception of Religious Holidays) My children (5 and 7 yrs old) already are in School for 7 hrs a day and are exhausted by the time they get home.And that doesn't include Homework!!! I would implore all those that are in favor of extending the school day and school year to please supply examples of how that would BENEFIT THE STUDENT!!!( notice I said STUDENT!!! again lets not concern ourselves with teachers salaries and benefits because it is the STUDENTS who are supposed to benefit!!!! Now of course I am sure people will still interject the teachers salary and benefits into this debate, which would just prove that you have no real interest in the students just pure envy... Remember most adults work 8hr days and more then likely that last hr is spent watching the clock,but you think a student will somehow benefit, again please provide examples.............I am raising a Child not a robot and part of growing up is being able to experience childhood not be in school for longer then they already are .....

I agree, this thread was hijacked-my point is that Christie is looking for solutions that will (mostly) benefit those students in need. The majority of school districts do well, the poorest ones, despite bottomless funding over the years, continue to fail.

That's the problem that needs solving. Charter schools have been one effort.

And re:teachers and the new ideas, any solution will be the result of collective bargaining and legislative action to figure out funding, so it will be mutually agreed upon by all the stake holders-as was tenure reform recently. Most likely it will be a similar bi-partisan agreement, where not everyone gets 100% of what they wanted but all agree to carry the process forward-because it's all about the children in the end.

As far as people getting into teaching, each elementary school opening in my hometown has had over 500 applicants . . .

Monroe wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
According to the Kaiser Health Foundation, an employee with family health insurance paid an average of $4,000 for their insurance, while their employer paid, roughly $9,700 in 2010. That represents an increase over 2009, when employees paid an average of $3,515 and employers paid $9,860. Average premiums for 2010 and 2009 were $13,770 and $13,375, respectively.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_7756791_aver ... urance.html#ixzz2qfhqPpwD

So, Pebble, a teacher paying $900 towards a policy valued at $22K is quite different than the average joe paying $4,000 towards a $14K policy. (And the $900 number I found was from 2011). Advantage, in a big way, to the teachers.

(These are family plans, btw. Not sure of your status, but it sounds like a great deal. Enjoy it, because once the Obamacare corporate mandate arrives you'll be paying a lot more).

"The average family". You are, once again, not comparing teachers to their peers.

You also didn't answer my question. Why aren't you a teacher? If the job is so cushy, why aren't you doing it?

I don't answer 'when did you stop beating your wife' type questions, lol.

Suffice it to say I've enjoyed two wonderful careers, very successful in two diverse types of work, with national and international recognition and achievement. This has allowed me to afford the property taxes (I'm a part time JC resident, as I've said) in a town with the best school system in the state. And for me it's not a 'job' when you love it, so I've never wanted 13 weeks free per year anyway.

When we all meet up for drinks we can talk further, is that still on for the new year?

jc344 wrote:
The people that are using the teachers salaries and benefits as a reason to believe that extending the school day and year is the right thing to do are illogical and inane to say the least. If people are so concerned with Teachers salaries and benefits , leave your current job and go back to school and get the necessary degree to become a teacher!! It's time people start worrying about themselves and their pay/benefits and not worry about others salaries/benefits. I am not a Teacher, nor do I have any desire to be one. Like I previously stated however I am a parent of two kids that although they go to Catholic School( It follows the Public School district schedule with the exception of Religious Holidays) My children (5 and 7 yrs old) already are in School for 7 hrs a day and are exhausted by the time they get home.And that doesn't include Homework!!! I would implore all those that are in favor of extending the school day and school year to please supply examples of how that would BENEFIT THE STUDENT!!!( notice I said STUDENT!!! again lets not concern ourselves with teachers salaries and benefits because it is the STUDENTS who are supposed to benefit!!!! Now of course I am sure people will still interject the teachers salary and benefits into this debate, which would just prove that you have no real interest in the students just pure envy... Remember most adults work 8hr days and more then likely that last hr is spent watching the clock,but you think a student will somehow benefit, again please provide examples.............I am raising a Child not a robot and part of growing up is being able to experience childhood not be in school for longer then they already are .....

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
According to the Kaiser Health Foundation, an employee with family health insurance paid an average of $4,000 for their insurance, while their employer paid, roughly $9,700 in 2010. That represents an increase over 2009, when employees paid an average of $3,515 and employers paid $9,860. Average premiums for 2010 and 2009 were $13,770 and $13,375, respectively.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_7756791_aver ... urance.html#ixzz2qfhqPpwD

So, Pebble, a teacher paying $900 towards a policy valued at $22K is quite different than the average joe paying $4,000 towards a $14K policy. (And the $900 number I found was from 2011). Advantage, in a big way, to the teachers.

(These are family plans, btw. Not sure of your status, but it sounds like a great deal. Enjoy it, because once the Obamacare corporate mandate arrives you'll be paying a lot more).

"The average family". You are, once again, not comparing teachers to their peers.

You also didn't answer my question. Why aren't you a teacher? If the job is so cushy, why aren't you doing it?

Monroe wrote:
According to the Kaiser Health Foundation, an employee with family health insurance paid an average of $4,000 for their insurance, while their employer paid, roughly $9,700 in 2010. That represents an increase over 2009, when employees paid an average of $3,515 and employers paid $9,860. Average premiums for 2010 and 2009 were $13,770 and $13,375, respectively.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_7756791_aver ... urance.html#ixzz2qfhqPpwD

So, Pebble, a teacher paying $900 towards a policy valued at $22K is quite different than the average joe paying $4,000 towards a $14K policy. (And the $900 number I found was from 2011). Advantage, in a big way, to the teachers.

(These are family plans, btw. Not sure of your status, but it sounds like a great deal. Enjoy it, because once the Obamacare corporate mandate arrives you'll be paying a lot more).

Monroe wrote:
1. Teachers work 180 days a year. Any time they spend 'extra' is matched by the same effort people with private sector jobs outside their 5 days/week. The average middle class person works 49 weeks/year x 5 = 245 days, or the equivalent of 13 more weeks/year.

Monroe wrote:
2. Please provide the overall value of a teachers Cadillac health plan vs the average middle class workers health plan, and the difference in the contributions both make towards those plans. The last I saw the NJ teacher making 60K paid $900/year for his/her health plan worth $22K. That was far less than what I paid. Anyone here paying $20/week for their company sponsored health care? And the teachers plan carries over into retirement, with spousal coverage . . . imagine how much that is worth for someone retiring at 65?

Monroe wrote:
3. No need to comment, if you want to compare salaries, do it weighted with someone working 180 days vs someone working 245 days, not on a 1:1 ratio, lol.