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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
 
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I recognized the picture of this woman. I'm trying to find out if in fact this is the woman I once had a very interesting conversation with about a year ago.
The woman I spoke to was a very pleasant person to speak to. The person I spoke to, at the time, was having a very difficult time with a son, who had trouble with the authorities. I told her that family counseling was the best way to deal with this type of situation and she had told me that she was getting the help she needed. She didn't seem to have any medical problem and she never mentioned it to me as we opened up about alot of personal things. I felt sympathetic towards her and the problem she was having with her son. Could it be that she just couldn't handle the pressure anymore and stopped taking her medication? Or could it have been that the medication she was taking was affecting her being that she had recently had a hip surgery? Maybe the mixture of the medications had affected her so she decided to stop all medications altogether? until she recoved fully from her surgery? But like some said on another post they could have called in people who would have known how to handle a woman with a mental condition locked into her apartment, by other means. I do feel that the husband should have contacted medical professionals alot sooner. This incident is very unfortunate on all sides. Maybe the police could have had shields to protect themselves, fortunately they didn't get seriouly hurt.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 22:24
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Here's a great example that illustrates what a crazy woman with a knife is capable of doing:
http://www.seattlepi.com/national/1110ap_us_baby_decapitated.html
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:50
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
This is the threshold now? "mentally ill woman in a locked room with a knife"? Since a large (double-digit) percentage of people suffer from mental illness, everyone owns knives and at a least cooks sometimes, this seems like an overly broad criteria.
Posted on: 2009/7/28 16:07
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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I'm sure that as the knife was coming at the officer's head, he was thinking "I'm going to shoot this crazy broad...in retaliation". Of course all kinds of relatives are going to come forward now to cry about police injustice.
Posted on: 2009/7/28 15:40
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Word of advice...do not lung at a police officer with a knife...you might get shot
Posted on: 2009/7/28 15:16
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Newbie
 
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Not being there, its hard to really know what happened...It's possible the woman was in mid lunge when they cops decided to open fire...but how could cops NOT break the door down if you tell them there is a mentally ill woman in a locked room with a knife!
Getting slashed in the forehead is pretty serious! Who knows how close it was to blinding the officer by slashing him in the eyes!
Posted on: 2009/7/28 14:14
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Re:Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit -- Kin of woman killed by cops don't buy official explanation
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Home away from home
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Kin of woman killed by cops don't buy official explanation
Tuesday, July 28, 2009 By AMY SARA CLARK JOURNAL STAFF WRITER The family of a Jersey City woman shot dead by police after she cut two officers with a kitchen knife wants to know why cops couldn't have subdued her another way. "The way they killed her was savage," said Edith Sims, a cousin of Martina Brown, 58, who was shot six times by police in her Van Wagenen Avenue apartment last week. Police, who were called to the scene by the woman's husband, said the woman had psychiatric problems and was off her medications. The woman slashed one officer on an arm and another across the forehead, police said. Officials said police tried "non-lethal means" to subdue the woman, including wielding batons, but she continued to pose such a threat they had no choice but to shoot her. Brown's family doesn't accept that explanation. They also believe the shooting was payback for the death of Emergency Services Unit officer Marc DiNardo, who was pronounced dead earlier that day. Detective DiNardo and four other officers were wounded in a shootout the previous week. The two officers Brown cut with the 8-to 9-inch kitchen knife were both ESU officers. The officer who was cut on the arm is the one who shot her, officials said. "I truly believe this was retaliation," said Yvette Evans, a cousin. "If they (the ESU cops) were not fit to go to work they shouldn't have gone to work." Brown's family said Brown had recently undergone hip surgery and had breathing problems, requiring the use of an oxygen tank. "How can seven officers not restrain an ill, overweight woman?" Evans said. Police confirmed seven officers responded to the scene after Brown's husband, Wesley Brown, called 911 for an ambulance because his wife was off her medications, playing music loudly, and had threatened him with a knife. "They did try to reason with her. They tried to disarm her," Hudson County Edward DeFazio said about the police involved in the shooting. "They didn't fire first. They were assaulted first."
Posted on: 2009/7/28 12:54
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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If you like you can call it a dumb analogy thats your opinion and your perogative. If youread my posts it was simply in response to people who stated what should've been done, such as few posters who stated the police should've tasered her ,which is illegal for either law enforcement or civillians , or to the posters who claimed that all reports said this and that . The bottom line is that people who weren't at the scene or weren't innvolved are criticizing what actions were or weren't taken and all the facts aren't in yet, but that doesn't stop people from declaring that the police were wrong.Not one poster on this board has taken the time or effort to put themselves in the officer's that were involved shoes but is really fast to criticize the actions without even knowing all the facts. But when someone calls them on it (myself) their a zealot, and pro police. Give me a break. You are no better then the rest of the Monday Morning Quaterbacks, and if you don't like the analogy too bad... How many times does the officer(s) have to be stabbed before they defend themselves? I bet if someone merely pulled out a knife you would defend yourself , but of course your not a police officer so that would be all right..
Posted on: 2009/7/23 13:24
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
This is the typical dumb analogy trotted out every time someone questions police actions. We're not talking about a football game. A private citizen was killed by the police force. All questions are not only important, but fundamentally a part of the right of citizens to question their government. We don't have to defer to the judgment of the police in situations like this. We don't have to "put ourselves in their shoes." Because they fired and killed, the weight of explanation is on them. I hope that the impending investigation looks at root problems and possible solutions, many of which have already been brought up in this thread. Efforts like yours, to cast the police as being somehow above the common citizen are a large part of the reason many people resent the police. They perpetuate the stereotype that only a Serpico can affect change, because the police and their families and supporters band together and violently dismiss any criticism or demands for answers. No one is saying that the police in this situation acted maliciously or irresponsibly - but the result seems to indicate that best practices and protocol that currently exist are ineffective, faulty, and dangerous, both to those who break the law (unwittingly or otherwise) and to the officers and agencies sworn to uphold it. Your knee-jerk, barely formulated defenses do nothing but cast you as a zealous supporter, regardless of the rectitude of police actions, or fundamental flaws in the policing system.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 12:33
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Hey Jersey City, just thought I'd mention this according to todays (July 23 2009) Jersey Journal 2 ESU Officer's along with 2 other jcpd Officer's entered the apartment and the 2 ESU OFFICER"S were stabbed. I guess that was just 1 of the reports that you were not aware of..................
Posted on: 2009/7/23 9:57
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Jersey City you might want to clarify your response with something that goes like this , since all of the reports that YOU are aware of state this... . Usually if esu responds their there during the event, although they also respond sometimes after usually to either resecure the premise or provide other assistance such as lighting e.t.c. I am sure all of the reports are not currently in since 2 officer's went to the hospital with injuries . Oh and because all the news reports say so... come on do you really think that they release every bit of information to the press??? They release sound bites or little bits and pieces.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 1:55
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Because every report and interview says two officers responded, the same two were injured and obviously didn't have the protective gear ESU has or they would of never been cut/stabbed in the hand and forehead. ESU also has the shields it is not found inside the trunk of a squad car. The police kicked in the door, ESU would have used a battering ram. I know ESU showed up because they are the ones that respond to crime scenes, but they were not involved with the entry just the news reports alone tell you that.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 1:36
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Jersey City NJ , I don't know whether or not her husband attempted to get her the medical help she needed, just like all of the other posters that are posting here (yourself) included don't actually know what happened at that scene .Unless of course you were actually involved. I just proved my point about Monday morning Quaterbacking without knowing all of the facts. Again were did it say he did attempt to get her help previously? It didn't I was just surmising just like you.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 1:00
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Jclxz, I didn' state the law correctly, the emt's had information relayed to them by the husband ( a relative) that his wife the lady in the apartment had mental issues and hadn't taken her medication. The emts are then required to check the hysical and mental condition of the lady, since it was a relative who called. If the emt's determine that she does in fact have a mental issue where she is a threat to herself or others they are required by law to transport her to a hospital whether or not she wants to go.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 0:55
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
That's an interesting law. Anyone can just call for an ambulance, state that someone has mental issues and hasn't taken their medication, and EMTs are required by law to evaluate them? I'd love to read the actual law. That's pretty surprising.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 0:26
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
How do you know the husband did not try to get her to take the meds and have her hospitalized in the past? You know, the way the father of the guy that stabbed the man on the light rail a year or two ago kept trying to have his son hospitalized for not taking his meds before the incident. Also if the police were worried she might have a gun also like you are trying to say it would make more sense to have a better plan before storming in if they were worried she might have a gun as well.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 0:17
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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While it is true that shield won't protect from shotgun blasts, the point I was making was that How does the post above my previous post know whether shields were or were not used. Also How do the Police know that the only weapon the lady had was a knife? Because her husband said that?
Posted on: 2009/7/23 0:08
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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most of your posts in this thread so far were ok... until you got to the point where you compared a shield protecting against a shotgun blast through a door vs a knife. yes tasers might be against the law in NJ which is why they should reverse that law and allow both civilians and police (or at the very least police) to carry them. without this, the officers really can't be blamed for their actions, especially if they already attempted to baton/mace the suspect to no avail.
Posted on: 2009/7/23 0:03
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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If I am not mistaken the news reported last night that ESU was on scene, and were did it say that shields were or weren't used? or were you in fact there and know that shields weren't used? Just asking since in your statement it seems like you know the facts surrounding the situation. How effective were the shields last Thursday on Reed Street. Just a Thought.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 23:58
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
What about the shields they could of used that JCPD does have. Wouldn't it make sense to have waited until they arrived to the scene? The shields are both bullet and stab proof and are meant far situations like this.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 23:51
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Another fact that i failed to mention when someone calls for an ambulance and states to 911 that their wife has mental issues and hasn't taken her medication, the emt's are required by law to check on that person's physical condition as well as their mental capabilities and determine whether or not hospitalization is required, so standing in the hallway while the woman is locked in her apartment with a knife is not a viable option
Posted on: 2009/7/22 23:51
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Just can't stay away
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Hey fab, before you runoff at the mouth and say the police should've tasered her it's usually a good idea to check your facts, fact #1 Tasers are against the law in New Jersey for both Law Enforcement as well as civillians. Fact #2 the Police did try and use non- lethal force they used their batons in an effort to subdue her and she stabbed 1 officer in the head and then slashed the second officer in the arm before she was shot. Her husband stated " my wife is a schitophrenic and hasn't taken her medication in over a week and is getting crazier and crazier". Maybe if her 'loving ' husband had tried to get her help when she first stopped taking her medication this wouldn't have happened. It was her husband who after all did call 911, granted he did request an ambulance, but also stated that his wife had a knife so therefore in order to protect the emts police are also dispatched. Again why blame the family who ignored the fact that she had mental issues and hadn't taken her medicine in more then a week when it is so much easier to blame the police for doing their job. Nothing like Monday morning Quaterbacking from people who haven't got a clue.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 23:45
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Whatever happened to tasers, mace and simply removing the husband out and giving the 5'2 monster the chance to calm down in her own time - Yes she might be a threat to herself, but it beats plugging her with slugs !
I guess its a cheap way to deal with mental health situations and drug effected people ! By the way what university did the police officers and police department in general, get their accreditations in dealing with such issues ? Healy and Comey providing caveman solutions to modern day health issues - Remind me to vote for you guys again ! Next time someone wants to legally 'bump' someone off - spike their drink with drugs, leave a knife on the table and simply call the cops !
Posted on: 2009/7/22 23:10
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Just curious? I always see these shows on History Channel etc. about non-lethal weapons like bean-bag guns etc. How come our Police don't have them. Last year I was in Mass. and the cops used a bean-bag gun to subdue a guy who had stolen a bulldozer and was on a rampage. Like I said earlier, I won't judge these officers actions because who knows how they would react but seems like some situations call for an alternative to old-fashioned gunfire. I won't judge here because it seems these cops were in close quarters with this woman and didn't have much time to make a decision.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 22:06
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Jersey City man to cops: You didn't have to shoot my wife
by Amy Sara Clark / The Jersey Journal Wednesday July 22, 2009, 5:14 PM The husband of the Jersey City woman who was shot dead by a cop last night who was responding to a domestic dispute said the police could have subdued her in another way. "They didn't have to kill her," said Wesley Brown, 51, whose wife, Martina Brown was shot multiple times last night at 87 Van Wagenen Ave. Brown, who is about 6-feet, said police threw him to the ground and handcuffed him without a problem. His wife, is only 5-feet 2-inches. "What they did to me they could have done to her. But when it came to her, 'pop, pop, pop,'" he said, making a gesture of a gun with his hands. Wesley Brown said his wife was schizophrenic and stopped taking her medicine several days ago. She got crazier and crazier, he said. Last night she was blasting music and when he tried to get her to turn it down she grabbed a knife, he said. He called 911 to get an ambulance, he said. But hearing that Martina had a knife, 911 sent police as well. Martina locked herself in the apartment and cops kicked in the door, Wesley said. Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio said that police tried to subdue Martina using batons, but she "held tight to the knife." She slashed on officer in the arm. Then she lunged over one cop and "stabbed" another in the forehead. It was then that police shot her. DeFazio said his "preliminary" assessment is that the police didn't do anything wrong. "It would appear that it was self defense and the defense of others on the part of the police offices," he said. "They did try to reason with her. They tried to disarm her," he said. "They didn't fire first, they were assaulted first." He added that "people who are mentally ill can present as extremely dangerous." "It's a tragic situation," he added. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y_man_to_cops_you_di.html
Posted on: 2009/7/22 21:20
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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Quote:
You must not have seen the news, the husband was outside not inside. He called the police to help her not protect himself. I understand what you are trying to say with the dog scenario but that is not similar to what happened. It is like knowing that dog is locked in a room and is not all there and only using deadly force when you are attacked instead of using tools meant for that situation to end with out a death. Watch the video and listen to the husband.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 21:06
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Not too shy to talk
 
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Her husband was outside with the cops. You're right, if the cops hadn't intervened maybe she could've killed herself. On the news, the husband was defending his wife and claimed that the cops didn't warn the woman to put the knife down as they said they did. It wasn't clear who had called the cops, even if it was the husband, he probably just wanted the situation to be brought under control, not that his wife end up being dead. Again, I reiterate, there just isn't enough information. And I am not saying the cops were wrong, but I do agree that there should've been alternative means to subdue her. For god's sake, someone died. Have some respect!
Posted on: 2009/7/22 21:06
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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not debated: jcpd's response to being attacked being debated: why jcpd officers are not equipped with other ways to subdue mentally ill suspects (tranquilizer darts, stun guns, etc.)
Posted on: 2009/7/22 20:48
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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If a person stabs a police officer, I have no problem with that person getting shot. What do you expect if you start waving a knife and sticking it in a police officer's hand or arm? What is he supposed to do, wrestle with the woman and hope for the best? Then she can stab him in the neck and he can bleed out and die so she can kill everyone else in the room? Why are people even debating this?
Posted on: 2009/7/22 20:38
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Re: Jersey City Cops Injured; Shoot Culprit
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Home away from home
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And here lies the problem, a lot of the RENTERS being nothing but Transient, I guess they don't care about who is Mayor and City Council and we end up with the Mayor, Council and cronyism we have today. With the city payroll so bloated, Team Healy were pretty much guaranteed those votes and the election win. So the question is how to get better people in office, such as a guy like Fulop.
Posted on: 2009/7/22 20:36
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