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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Dolomiti wrote:
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OneSkirt wrote:
JC Mayors and Planning have been way over-building without any planning for infrastructure growth and improvements.

As in, Jersey City is supposed to build a multi-billion dollar tunnel to NYC? All by its lonesome? C'mon, man.

Water, sewage, streets etc yes. Mass transit? No.


I'm confused. Could someone enlighten me - why some of you here believe that somebody else should pay for your convenience? Do you really think that people in the NJ area who want to commute to the NYC are the most downtrodden in the USA so much so that the whole country must subsidize their transportation needs?

If not, - then let some private firm build it, and let them charge those who uses it.


Posted on: 2016/6/7 3:27
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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brewster wrote:
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MDM wrote:
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brewster wrote:
What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive..

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries



I know NY Waterway was getting hammered a while back when fuel prices went to the moon. I suspect the cost of diesel is probably in the top 3 expenses for running a ferry.



Even assuming electric cost for trains is 1/3 fuel, similar to analysis of plugin cars, there's still a whole of of infrastructure in tracks and tunnels that trains have that ferries don't. Trucks can outcompete trains for short haul freight, seems like a similar comparison, no? And what are ferries but buses on water, and buses are considered economical compared to rail. Failure of ferries to compete just seems counterintuitive.


No. The fuel economies are completely different. If you translate it to passenger trips per gallon ratios, they'd be completely different. The labor costs are completely different. The insurance costs are completely different. A ferry is nothing like a bus on water.


Posted on: 2016/6/7 3:26
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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@dolomiti, you must be one of those self hating NJ taxpayers who like getting screwed by the Feds and NY. The deal was killed because NJ was paying a large part of the upfront cost, and 100 FREAKING PERCENT of the inevitable cost overruns.

That is wildly incorrect, and you know it.

There was nothing specified about cost overruns. Christie never talked to anyone about it. It is utterly irrational to suggest that one and only one player would get stuck with all the overruns.


Quote:
Didja see how much the Freedom Tower went over budget? The MTA Eastside Tunnel, which still isn't done? The Big Dig in Boston? The Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle?

Yeah, I never ever said that the project would be on budget. I said that there were no specific provisions for the cost overruns on the ARC, and it is ridiculous to claim on that basis that "NJ was stuck with 100% of it."



Quote:
And we got the PA funds to repair that Skyway that's about to fall onto JC.

Right. It doesn't matter that Christie burned Washington, including pissing off one of the most powerful Senators in the US, thus basically screwing us out of federal funds for years.

It doesn't matter that the first tunnel was projected to cost $9 billion, and the new one is projected to cost $20 billion, not including the overruns everyone knows will happen.

It doesn't matter that Gateway produces a less convenient handoff to the MTA.

It doesn't matter that they threw in everything and the kitchen sink to Gateway, such as fixing up Penn Station, fixing Amtrak rail lines, and Sandy tunnel repairs.

It doesn't matter that just the land for Gateway might cost $1 billion.

It doesn't matter that with ARC, NJ was putting up $1.25 billion, and with Gateway it could be $3 to $5 billion.

It doesn't matter that even if we paid half the cost overruns on the ARC, paying for a lesser percentage of overruns on the Gateway will likely cost NJ more.

It doesn't matter that the cancellation delayed the project by at least 4 years, and that if something goes seriously wrong with the existing Amtrak tunnels before it's done, then NJ Transit is royally screwed.

No, what matters is that Christie killed ARC, because he didn't want a big ticket item on his tab. 'Cause there really isn't any other reason for anyone to defend one of the most idiotic major infrastructure decisions of the past 30 years. And that includes the decision to build a bunch of absurdly expensive structures at WTC.

Posted on: 2016/6/7 3:16
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Dolomiti wrote:
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iGreg wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
I also have to add, if it was cheaper than the existing tunnels and bridges, it'd be jammed solid on the first day.

You're correct , no cars - the tolls would have be an incentive to bring in competitive bids from foreign investor/builders.

You cannot seriously believe that "competitive bidding" will bring down the cost of a bridge across the ****ing Hudson River.

Let me rephrase that. You might believe it, but no rational person with any understanding of infrastructure will believe it.

Your whole proposal sounds like a mess. Feds and state will pay for it, but they will skip the bi-state agency set up specifically to build infrastructure shared by NJ and NY? One that is involved in every discussion of interstate infrastructure? What, are we going to set up another bi-state agency?

We have tolls, we don't have tolls, we have cars, we don't have cars....

I hate to break this to you, but PA is not going away. You can't work around it. You can't wish it away by closing your eyes really tight. The only people who can fix it, for better and for worse, are the governors of New York and New Jersey.

Would you like a handkerchief to cry into?



He is a terrifying thought for someone like yourself:

Learn to think outside the box.

Opening up our broke/corrupt/stupid/nepotism filled political systems to foreign bidding would work.

China is cash rich and would gain massive face to step in and show the gweilo how they could effectively make that bridge, almost like Trump laying the ice in Central Park.

Reality is very different and well understood with the Port Authority (you work for them correct?) given a total monopoly on "interstate infrastructure".

Why should they even be considered for a free pedestrian bridge with bike lanes ?



Posted on: 2016/6/7 3:12
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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JCSHEP wrote:
Here are two quick facts:
-1927: 113,141,729 riders
-2015: 76,565,452 riders

Seemed to work for years with more riders than now. What am I missing here?


This has been explained many times before... back then, factories used to run ALL DAY, with three or four shifts per day. As such, there was wide ridership spread out over the entire day. Nowadays, you have "rush hour" commutes.

Posted on: 2016/6/7 3:08
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Here are two quick facts:
-1927: 113,141,729 riders
-2015: 76,565,452 riders

Seemed to work for years with more riders than now. What am I missing here?

Posted on: 2016/6/7 2:48
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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iGreg wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
I also have to add, if it was cheaper than the existing tunnels and bridges, it'd be jammed solid on the first day.

You're correct , no cars - the tolls would have be an incentive to bring in competitive bids from foreign investor/builders.

You cannot seriously believe that "competitive bidding" will bring down the cost of a bridge across the ****ing Hudson River.

Let me rephrase that. You might believe it, but no rational person with any understanding of infrastructure will believe it.

Your whole proposal sounds like a mess. Feds and state will pay for it, but they will skip the bi-state agency set up specifically to build infrastructure shared by NJ and NY? One that is involved in every discussion of interstate infrastructure? What, are we going to set up another bi-state agency?

We have tolls, we don't have tolls, we have cars, we don't have cars....

I hate to break this to you, but PA is not going away. You can't work around it. You can't wish it away by closing your eyes really tight. The only people who can fix it, for better and for worse, are the governors of New York and New Jersey.

Would you like a handkerchief to cry into?

Posted on: 2016/6/7 2:47
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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caj11 wrote:
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MDM wrote:
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brewster wrote:
What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive..

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries



I know NY Waterway was getting hammered a while back when fuel prices went to the moon. I suspect the cost of diesel is probably in the top 3 expenses for running a ferry.



Insurance and ongoing repairs are pretty hefty as well. I was told by someone who has worked in various marinas around the area all their lives that none of the New York Waterway routes are profitable. However, the various investors that own the company are politically connected types with various other (presumably profitable) business ventures in and around NYC and are willing to take a loss from the ferry service in exchange for the political clout it gives them. So I was told anyway.


That doc I linked to has lots of interesting data on this subject, wish I were better at analyzing numbers:
Resized Image

Posted on: 2016/6/6 23:56
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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MDM wrote:
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brewster wrote:
What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive..

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries



I know NY Waterway was getting hammered a while back when fuel prices went to the moon. I suspect the cost of diesel is probably in the top 3 expenses for running a ferry.



Insurance and ongoing repairs are pretty hefty as well. I was told by someone who has worked in various marinas around the area all their lives that none of the New York Waterway routes are profitable. However, the various investors that own the company are politically connected types with various other (presumably profitable) business ventures in and around NYC and are willing to take a loss from the ferry service in exchange for the political clout it gives them. So I was told anyway.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 23:07
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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manu wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
@dolomiti, you must be one of those self hating NJ taxpayers who like getting screwed by the Feds and NY. The deal was killed because NJ was paying a large part of the upfront cost, and 100 FREAKING PERCENT of the inevitable cost overruns.

Didja see how much the Freedom Tower went over budget? The MTA Eastside Tunnel, which still isn't done? The Big Dig in Boston? The Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle?

Now, we have the Feds, NY, and NJ sharing the cost, with the Feds looking to pay half of the upfront costs.

And we got the PA funds to repair that Skyway that's about to fall onto JC.



This is incorrect. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true:

Report Disputes Christie?s Basis for Halting Tunnel
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/nyr ... nnel-project-in-2010.html


Yes, the report disputes. And the fact is, that we now have a deal much better to NJ taxpayers because of Christie standing up to the Feds and Cuomo, and our Senators getting off their asses and bringing some pork back to NJ-finally. It's always kinda sucked that not only do we pay just about the highest taxes in the US (thanks Trenton Dems) but we get back just about the least in the taxes we send to DC.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 22:47
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Monroe wrote:
@dolomiti, you must be one of those self hating NJ taxpayers who like getting screwed by the Feds and NY. The deal was killed because NJ was paying a large part of the upfront cost, and 100 FREAKING PERCENT of the inevitable cost overruns.

Didja see how much the Freedom Tower went over budget? The MTA Eastside Tunnel, which still isn't done? The Big Dig in Boston? The Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle?

Now, we have the Feds, NY, and NJ sharing the cost, with the Feds looking to pay half of the upfront costs.

And we got the PA funds to repair that Skyway that's about to fall onto JC.



This is incorrect. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true:

Report Disputes Christie?s Basis for Halting Tunnel
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/nyr ... nnel-project-in-2010.html

Posted on: 2016/6/6 22:42
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Posted on: 2016/6/6 22:41
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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MDM wrote:
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brewster wrote:
What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive..

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries



I know NY Waterway was getting hammered a while back when fuel prices went to the moon. I suspect the cost of diesel is probably in the top 3 expenses for running a ferry.



Even assuming electric cost for trains is 1/3 fuel, similar to analysis of plugin cars, there's still a whole of of infrastructure in tracks and tunnels that trains have that ferries don't. Trucks can outcompete trains for short haul freight, seems like a similar comparison, no? And what are ferries but buses on water, and buses are considered economical compared to rail. Failure of ferries to compete just seems counterintuitive.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 22:13
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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@dolomiti, you must be one of those self hating NJ taxpayers who like getting screwed by the Feds and NY. The deal was killed because NJ was paying a large part of the upfront cost, and 100 FREAKING PERCENT of the inevitable cost overruns.

Didja see how much the Freedom Tower went over budget? The MTA Eastside Tunnel, which still isn't done? The Big Dig in Boston? The Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle?

Now, we have the Feds, NY, and NJ sharing the cost, with the Feds looking to pay half of the upfront costs.

And we got the PA funds to repair that Skyway that's about to fall onto JC.


Posted on: 2016/6/6 21:40
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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brewster wrote:
What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive..

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries



I know NY Waterway was getting hammered a while back when fuel prices went to the moon. I suspect the cost of diesel is probably in the top 3 expenses for running a ferry.


Posted on: 2016/6/6 21:38
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Dolomiti wrote:

Have you lost your mind?




Yes a long time ago.


Perhaps since I was a young innocent alter boy and those special prayer sessions with Father Murphy.

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I also have to add, if it was cheaper than the existing tunnels and bridges, it'd be jammed solid on the first day.




You're correct , no cars - the tolls would have be an incentive to bring in competitive bids from foreign investor/builders.

Just a covered pedestrian walkway and bike path.


Quote:

And who do you think is going to build it? Jersey City, perhaps? Please. A multi-billion transportation project that connects NJ and NY is Port Authority's job. Giving them another bridge to manage is not going to make them any easier to deal with.



Not their job, no tolls

No Port Authority to reap the benefit from.

It could be funded via state and federal funds.

Green Walkway is a benefit to all citizens.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 21:34
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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What I don't understand is why the ferry service is so expensive. A ferry can be bought for the cost of one or 2 subway cars ($1.28 million each, cost of ferries) , and you don't need track, electric supply or signaling, just 2 docks. Ferry used to be the ONLY way to cross the Hudson, and I doubt it cost the equivalent of buying lunch a century ago. I can't find any data on historic ferry fares. But it is worth noting how NYC provides free ferry service to Staten I in order to promote it's economy. But the PA and the NJ governors could care less about the economy of Hudson County.

Interesting page History of Hudson Ferries

Posted on: 2016/6/6 21:33
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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hero69 wrote:
want to go see crowded rush hour trains - go to hong kong, sao paolo, tokyo, london, shanghai, beijing, mexico city..stop whining and deal with it


At least Hong Kong and Tokyo trains get zero public subsidies and in fact turn a profit and London almost breaks even. The PATH, despite being packed to the gills during rush hour and pretty busy on weekends doesn't even recover half its costs. I have no idea about the other transit systems you mention.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:42
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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iGreg wrote:
4 bilion dollars for the oculus that already has huge portions of the exterior finish peeling off from it shows what idiots are running the show.

Yes, that was a bad choice. It was also what dozens of powerful politicians, and millions of constituents, demanded. They saw pretty pictures on their computer screens, and wanted it. So it goes.


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Why da fuk on weekends are the trains packed out?

Uh... They aren't that packed, certainly not all day, and not much worse than at any time in the past ~15-20 years I've used the PATH.


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Here is the solution, bring in bidding for a new modern bridge downtown.... This modern bridge will take tolls for cars (not $14 fucking dollars like Port Authority is getting away with raping the public for). It could have modern weatherproof covered walkways for bikes and pedestrians and linkage to NYC transit.

Have you lost your mind?

The new Tappan Zee will probably cost $6 billion and take 5 years to build by the time it's done -- and already has the surrounding vehicular infrastructure.

A new bridge for cars in JC means we need to build routes in JC and Manhattan. I can't even imagine where it would go, as that means cutting paths through some of the most dense and expensive real estate in the world.

Or perhaps you think we can summon a bridge out of thin air, without any highways to get to it?

And of course, it'd backfire immediately. Urban developers and planners learned long ago that when you add capacity to auto infrastructure, it gets used up very quickly -- as more people decide they can take their cars. I.e. this won't relieve any pressure, it'll cause it, and cause yet more congestion in Manhattan and across northern NJ.

I also have to add, if it was cheaper than the existing tunnels and bridges, it'd be jammed solid on the first day.

And who do you think is going to build it? Jersey City, perhaps? Please. A multi-billion transportation project that connects NJ and NY is Port Authority's job. Giving them another bridge to manage is not going to make them any easier to deal with.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:41
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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I don?t take the path anymore but when I did (20 year ago) I had the same complaint.

?Many passengers complain of crammed commutes, or having to wait for trains to pass before boarding one that isn?t packed?

It seems like the only thing that changed with the path from 20 years ago is the price hike and the use of metrocards.

Maybe the trains today carry more people than the older ones. I noticed the trains today have reconfigured seating to hold more people.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:40
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Christie's approval is 26%.

He may be the only NJ institution that outpolls the PA in popularity.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:25
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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I mean they have to draw the line somewhere:

- 4 Billion Terminal- YES we can afford

- Scheme to shut down Fort Lee for several days - YES we can afford

- Convince United to send flights to chairman's summer home- YES we can afford

- Hundreds of millions on redoing Harrison station- YES we can afford

- Service more than every 15 minutes on the weekend- HELL NO WE CANNOT AFFORD OMG!!!

Makes total sense. I'm sure the whole thing has nothing to do with Fulop suing them, or a recent article showing many employees making 6 figures in overtime pensions alone.

Even when senior toll collectors make 80k, I knew it was Fulop. Even as every pol in NJ wants a pic opening a complex in Harrison, it was Fulop.

Also how do we know it isn't Fulop who makes the trains wait in Hoboken on weekends? #Degnantheories

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:24
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Monroe wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
Uh, yeah, I don't exactly see a "drop dead" in there. I see Degnan sniping at Fulop, who is already suing and bashing PA.

PA is obviously taking a lot of steps to expand both PATH service and Hudson crossings. These just aren't the kinds of things that can happen overnight -- especially when a now-absent governor killed a major tunnel project, and redirected those funds to projects that had nothing to do with PA.



Yes, postponing the tunnel will save NJ taxpayers billions of dollars, since the new project is equally shared between NY, NJ, and the Feds-with the added bonus that the money 'redirected' went to fix the Pulaski Skyway-which directly benefits Jersey City, which it traverses.

Please, spare us such utter bull.

Christie INCREASED the costs for EVERYONE when he killed the ARC. He didn't bother to talk to anyone about costs, he didn't try to negotiate, he just killed it because he wanted to build his conservative bona fides... for an election where he belly flopped.

And no, there is no excuse WHATSOEVER for redirecting funds to the Pulaski. No matter how badly it needed it, no matter how much I support fixing it, it was improperly funded and in a way that burned Christie with Congress for years.

You do realize that you're the last person in NJ who actually thinks Christie has done a tolerable job as gov, right?

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:23
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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OneSkirt wrote:
JC Mayors and Planning have been way over-building without any planning for infrastructure growth and improvements.

As in, Jersey City is supposed to build a multi-billion dollar tunnel to NYC? All by its lonesome? C'mon, man.

Water, sewage, streets etc yes. Mass transit? No.


Quote:
I can't stand what's becoming of this place in terms of the over-crowding without proper infrastructure growth.

Refusing to grow will cause a totally different set of problems.

The big one is that real estate prices would go through the roof, even more than they have already. This is what is strangling San Francisco.

Another is that people would just move to other points on the PATH line, notably Harrison and Newark. While I am all in favor of spreading the gentrification, the PATH is hardly exclusive to Jersey City, and the problem is much larger than one city.

Ultimately, PA needs to get its act in gear, and it is only the two governors who can push for that.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 20:18
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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hero69 wrote:
want to go see crowded rush hour trains - go to hong kong, sao paolo, tokyo, london, shanghai, beijing, mexico city..stop whining and deal with it


this argument boils down to, "it is worse there, so we should do nothing here." is that accurate to how you feel?

Posted on: 2016/6/6 18:30
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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want to go see crowded rush hour trains - go to hong kong, sao paolo, tokyo, london, shanghai, beijing, mexico city..stop whining and deal with it

Posted on: 2016/6/6 17:42
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Well, there's always that pedestrian bridge from Jersey City to Manhattan they keep dreaming about. That might help ease PATH overcrowding - in our dreams, that is.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 17:20
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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I am going to just repost a comment of mine from One Jersey City concerning the allegation that the problem is Jersey City trying to develop too much.

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It is reasonable to question whether development should mean building as densely as possible in urban spots. And cities certainly have to take infrastructure and capacity into account when making their plans.

Still, Degnan's comment is appalling. The Port Authority is one of the largest developers out there. As Bill Matsikoudis (certainly no friend of the Fulop administration) has aptly pointed out, does the Port Authority want the Freedom Tower that they just built to lay vacant? Where do they think many of the workers in that office tower are going to come from, regardless of whether Jersey City further develops its waterfront?

The Port Authority has also well exceeded its initial mandate to become a both an immense builder and user of infrastructure (with incredibly favorable tax treatment on top of that). Increasing transportation capacity to address urban development IS IT'S JOB.

So yes, Jersey City may have to account for the fact that it's development may be hindered by a sclerotic, inefficient, patronage laden behemoth that is the Port Authority. That does not justify the comments from the head of said sclerotic, inefficient, patronage laden behemoth.

Posted on: 2016/6/6 16:45
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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Posted on: 2016/6/6 16:27
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Re: Port Authority To Jersey City - Drop Dead
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maybe the port authority should have thought about costs before wasting $4 billion on the wtc path station.

also, the path system is far from operating at capacity. people will learn to leave a bit earlier or later to avoid overcrowded trains

Posted on: 2016/6/6 16:08
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