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The Heights: All hope for a super Stop N Shop gone?
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Over at the former Davey Co. lot, I noticed some heavy equipment doing some excavation a while back. Are they finally building a school on the lot?

I keep holding out a faint hope that a Super Stop N Shop might actually get built instead.

Posted on: 2012/12/2 21:20
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

MikeZ wrote:
Okay, It's two years later and this is still a big, ugly, empty concrete lot. Does anyone know what is going on with it?


The money bonded for school construction (without voter approval.. in violation of the State constitution) is basically gone.

Money spent from the bonds has to pay "prevailing wages". Prevailing wages requires a class c laborer (cleanup guy) make close to $90k a year in wages and benefits.

That cash went from the tax payer, to the unions, and back to the politicians that support the illegal bonding in the first place (via campaign contributions).


So there is no school, nor a Super Stop&Shop that was going to be built WITHOUT any tax abatements.


So the state spent $6 million on the land. I looked up the tax records and Stop&Shop's holding company was spending $60K a year in tax on the vacant lot until 2006. So in the last four years, they city has not only not built anything, but lost $240K in tax revenue. Plus whatever they paid to architects to come up with plans for the two schools. Now what will they do, sell the vacant lot at auction for $500K like they just did with the four firehouses? What a shame, it's 10 minutes from the PATH and across the street from what could a lovely public pond.

Does this lot have any part in the Jounal Square redevelopment plan?

Posted on: 2010/9/28 18:42
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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MikeZ wrote:
Okay, It's two years later and this is still a big, ugly, empty concrete lot. Does anyone know what is going on with it?


The money bonded for school construction (without voter approval.. in violation of the State constitution) is basically gone.

Money spent from the bonds has to pay "prevailing wages". Prevailing wages requires a class c laborer (cleanup guy) make close to $90k a year in wages and benefits.

That cash went from the tax payer, to the unions, and back to the politicians that support the illegal bonding in the first place (via campaign contributions).


So there is no school, nor a Super Stop&Shop that was going to be built WITHOUT any tax abatements.

Posted on: 2010/9/28 17:47
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Xerxes wrote:
I guess they are SPAWNING at a good clip in the HEIGHTS!

I moved to the Heights from the Upper West Side of Manhattan (where I had lived for 15 years) 2 years ago, and I still can't get over how many children there are! A casual observer might be forgiven for thinking every family group has at least 3 or 4!

To the need or value of a new Stop & Shop Superstore - I live a short walk from the current Stop & Shop on Franklin and Central, as well as the Supremo on Palisade Avenue (awesome produce selection - I am teaching myself Mexican cooking, and my friends are blown away by the authentic ingredients I get there) - their selection and prices are fine, and never seem that crowded.

I think the immediate area does fine, if you factor in the several green grocers on Central Avenue between Franklin and Congress Streets.

Posted on: 2010/9/28 17:40
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Okay, It's two years later and this is still a big, ugly, empty concrete lot. Does anyone know what is going on with it?

Posted on: 2010/9/28 15:30
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Also is there really a baby boom happening in the Heights - I would think that as the area gentrifies somewhat you would see fewer kids per house not more.


As others have implied, the Heights is, if anything, DEGENTRIFYING.
The pre-eminent population increase is new immigration and new immigrants tend to spawn freely.

The place looks a lot worse than it did 30 years ago.

Posted on: 2008/7/18 13:41
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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That link is great and all, but it doesn't answer the question. This link gives demographics of the area, but how up to date are they?? Also, they do not give the demographic of the people who are moving into the area, only the ones who have lived there for some time.

The question was who is "Moving into" the area, not who lives there.

Posted on: 2008/7/18 12:43
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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bunny22 wrote:
In what way do the people moving to the heights "differ signifigantly" from those moving to Hoboken or downtown JC?


I would like to know the answer to this as well.

Posted on: 2008/7/17 15:45
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Mathias wrote:
One thing to note. Neighborhoods which are gentrified do not normally send their kids to public schools they send them to private ones. Look at the development in Hoboken and along the waterfront in recent years. You don't see Hoboken building more schools. (I admit I may be wrong on this, if someone knows otherwise then please post).


Actually, what happens is they don't send their kids to the public school "first". But when someone else they know who's braver or poorer pioneers the public schools and says "come on in, the water's fine" they flood in. This has happened in Park Slope, Manhattans upper west side, Hoboken's 2 charters and currently their public school Wallace, and Downtown's LCCS, and PS 16, now being followed by PS's 3 and 37.

Posted on: 2008/7/17 14:55
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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In what way do the people moving to the heights "differ signifigantly" from those moving to Hoboken or downtown JC?

Posted on: 2008/7/17 14:02
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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I heard that Wegmans purchased the property and will break ground soon!

Posted on: 2008/7/16 22:07
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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The people moving to the Heights probably differ significantly from those moving downtown or to Hoboken.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 20:31
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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SalOnTheHill wrote:

Between educators, administrators, maintenance, security, etc, how many local jobs will be created by the schools? Aren't they permanent union jobs with great health care benefits (well-paying being a relative term)? Or is this a unions-we-like versus unions-we-don't argument?


I support collective bargaining for everyone (even the cops).

I do not have a grasp on what building the 2 schools mean for actual job creation. My understanding is that this is going to be done to ease overcrowding and possibly replace outdated buildings. If that is the case there is a likely chance that it will involve minimal hiring of additional teachers. I haven't heard anything regarding reducing the student to teacher ratio.

In most overcrowded schools they have converted closets and are using common spaces to teach so it isn't like they are taking classes of 50 students and making them classes of 25.

The Stop & Shop would have created more jobs for Heights residents and would be a tax revenue producing building unlike the school.

One thing to note. Neighborhoods which are gentrified do not normally send their kids to public schools they send them to private ones. Look at the development in Hoboken and along the waterfront in recent years. You don't see Hoboken building more schools. (I admit I may be wrong on this, if someone knows otherwise then please post).

The fact that the Heights needs more schools and is experiencing overcrowding speaks to the demographics of the area.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 20:20
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Salonthehill inquired as to how many school kids are transported by school bus in Jersey City. If you take a ride by a school around either the beginning of the school day or the end you will see how many school busses are used, for example just travel west on Laidlaw avenue from summit avenue behind the fire department the new ms#7 you will see all the school busses lined up in the street.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 19:41
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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i went to one of those city meetings back in 2006 when they were proposing the schools instead of the supermarket.

it was like a circus act. mr. michael yun (self proclaimed king of central avenue) came out in the middle of manzo's presentation like a ringleader with a projector screen and a full out 20 minute slideshow that not only wasted everyone's time but fumed the room of 100 people or so who were in support of the supermarket.

their claims were of more traffic based on the supermarket, more crime, more pollution (truck emissions) and other nonsense. i guess they forget about 7-9am when nobody can get past dickinson highschool, number 6 school, number 8 school, ps 27, ps 25, snyder high, and so on. if anything, i never have traffic issues at shop rite down town other than the holland tunnel traffic. those idling school busses seem to be a little more of a nuissance than a parked truck unloading produce any day. i've been nearly mugged many times outside of public schools (dickinson, ps 6, ps 8, even pershing field) as a kid, but never in front of a supermarket where there are usually hired private security and jcpd on site.

oh yea, mr. michael yun lives in nutley, nj where they have a wonderful shop rite and the great stop n shop of clifton commons a mere hop, skip, and a jump away from it all. i made sure to let everyone in that forum know that mr. yun is from nutley.

as for the schools, if they need them, so be it, but you can guarantee they are building those schools and cutting corners wherever possible. can anyone explain why the new middle school behind the firehouse already has nonworking air conditioners and other violations? that building is less than a few years old.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 19:16
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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jc344 wrote:
I understand people are happy that theres new schools being built, now lets see how happy they actually are when the schools finally open and you have the school busses and parents picking up there kids. In my opinion it doesn't make very much sense to build 2 more schools less than a block from another brand new school, traffic will become even worse once the schools open.Also nobody still has answered the question of what happens when schools letting out and the fire department has to respond to an emergency? I guess people will consider that when something does in fact happen. As for the Stop n shop I do believe that when the state decided to condemn the property to put the 2 new schools there the represenatives from stop n shop emphatically stated that either way the store on central avenue will be closed . Once that happens the residents of the heights will have to travel either downtown ,to hoboken or to rt440 to do there shopping. Unless of course you find all your shopping needs on Central Avenue.


What percentage of JC elementary school students ride school buses?

Posted on: 2008/7/16 18:14
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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jc344 wrote:
As for the Stop n shop I do believe that when the state decided to condemn the property to put the 2 new schools there the represenatives from stop n shop emphatically stated that either way the store on central avenue will be closed .


And these are the retail geniuses you want to open a new store? Ones who can't figure out how to run the only supermarket currently in the area profitably? One would hope that another, better, operator would take over in that location, unless some developer of ugly pink condos has his eye on it.

As for traffic, I live next to Academic high school, it's not that bad. Dickinson is really bad because of it's size. The firehouse sounds like a real issue, but a little planning (yeah, I know, this is JC) should solve that.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 17:51
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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As a heights resident, I have no problem with schools going up in the area. Just my 2 cents.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 17:08
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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I understand people are happy that theres new schools being built, now lets see how happy they actually are when the schools finally open and you have the school busses and parents picking up there kids. In my opinion it doesn't make very much sense to build 2 more schools less than a block from another brand new school, traffic will become even worse once the schools open.Also nobody still has answered the question of what happens when schools letting out and the fire department has to respond to an emergency? I guess people will consider that when something does in fact happen. As for the Stop n shop I do believe that when the state decided to condemn the property to put the 2 new schools there the represenatives from stop n shop emphatically stated that either way the store on central avenue will be closed . Once that happens the residents of the heights will have to travel either downtown ,to hoboken or to rt440 to do there shopping. Unless of course you find all your shopping needs on Central Avenue.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 16:46
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Mathias wrote:
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GrovePath wrote:
Anyone from the Heights have any perspective on all this?

A Stop and Shop mega-store would bring a lot more unwanted car traffic to the Heights but I doubt it would hurt local merchants any more than the existing Stop and Shop already does -- and though quaint a lot of city delis/bodegas/fruit stores are really over priced and horrible.

Also is there really a baby boom happening in the Heights - I would think that as the area gentrifies somewhat you would see fewer kids per house not more.



The area really is not being "gentrified." There is an increasing Latino and South East Asian population. The area remains, as it has been since I was a young kid a mostly working class area with a mix of some seedy streets and a few really nice ones.

Don't look for a Starbucks or American Apparel to open up anytime soon on Central Ave.

I think the Stop and Shop would have been a better move. The store would have created permanent well paying union jobs (with great health care benefits) for area residents.


Between educators, administrators, maintenance, security, etc, how many local jobs will be created by the schools? Aren't they permanent union jobs with great health care benefits (well-paying being a relative term)? Or is this a unions-we-like versus unions-we-don't argument?

Posted on: 2008/7/16 16:38
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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If i were buying a place I would prefer there to be a supermarket across the street than a school that's for sure. It's just a guess but I think a school nearby would actually lower property values. As someone else mentioned the Dickinson area is a nightmare during recess periods and when school is let out.

A few shop owners on Central Ave, including a deli/liquor store that does great business refused to join the anti-Stop and Shop crowd because they did not see it as a threat to their business and felt they could compete with the store. In terms of job losses, mom and pop stores tend to hire less people and also tend to not provide health care or even follow minimum wage laws. Stop and Shop is a great employer and it would have been nice to see an additional 80 or so union grocery jobs for Heights residents. Especially with the economy the way it is it would be great to see young kids employed for the summer than hanging out.

I agree that the reservoir should not be used for anything but public space. I'm also for new schools being built but it seems to me that there are plenty of places in the Heights where this could have been done or renovate existing schools.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 16:11
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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I live a couple of blocks from this lot, and I'm extremely happy to see schools going up instead of a second Stop and Shop. If the mega Stop and Shop had gone in, there would be no incentive to improve the one that already exists less than half a mile away, and I'm assuming the parent company would have shut down the original store on Central Avenue, leaving us with another hideous abandoned building.

What the heights really needs is for Stop and Shop to improve the quality of the store they already have. There's no excuse for filling that store with second rate goods, and it takes some gall for the company to push so hard for a mega store with promises to the neighborhood residents that the new store would offer them what they've long been missing (a quality supermarket) when the limitations have been created by the low quality of Stop and Shop's original store in the first place.

!???!

Posted on: 2008/7/16 15:44
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Many students from the heights go to school in downtown Jersey City. Considering all of the new development downtown and for that matter, the rest of the city, that has been occuring for quite some time now, (elementary) school capacity is lagging. The addition of two new schools is good news indeed and surely needed.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 11:58
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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The Stop n Shop would have been comparable to the Shoprite in Hoboken near the viaduct, which is nothing like the Shoprite in Newport or Columbia Park. THAT would have been wonderful. While the existing one is a little spotty, it is much more reasonable than either Supremo (which always smells dank) or the C-Town or whatever it is called these days down at the south end of Central Avenue. I could never understand why local merchants felt so threatened. Back in the day, there was a nut and chocolate shop, two ice cream parlors, twocard stores, several quality clothing stores, a beautiful home decor store and two large toy stores. Now, Central Avenue is dominated by beauty and nail salons and 99 cent stores (and a lot of empty storefronts). I don't think a large Stop n Shop would have been competition for them. It might have initially hurt the wine and liquor stores, flower shop, pharmacies and butchedr shops but I think service would have kept those stores going (and you can't beat the kielbasy, etc. at Stan's on South and Central.)

Posted on: 2008/7/16 8:28
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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jimmy wrote:
As a homeowner I enjoy the fruits of a neighborhood that is being filled with people that outwardly show their concern for others through their own actions and words and the effort they put in to keep their own shit in their own shitbucket and pride for their house/apt/block/building and all those good things.


+1! I have rarely seen the sentiment put better.

The one thing I don't understand in this issue is why anyone thinks the produce and such in a new S&S would be better than in the old one? A store that sells crap will sell it in a large store as well as a small one. All over Manhattan are small supermarkets like gristede's and D'agostino's that sell quality goods. There's no rule that says smaller markets like the current S&S or even Downtown's C-Town need to be crappy, apparently they just see no motivation to change.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 2:53
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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I have one question that no one seems to know the answer to, Where they are building the 2 new schools is directly across from a firehouse which houses engine 7, ladder 3 . You already have a new middle school ms#7 on Laidlaw avenue directly behind the firehouse, everyone states they shouldn't build a stop n shop because of the increase in traffic> Has anyone ever driven by a school at 8 am or 3 pm and notice the traffic? Try driving on Palisades and newark Avenue by Dickinson at dismissal time it will take you a minimum of 10-15 minutes to go one block. When the school bus is dropping off little johnny at the new school opposite the firehouse and a call for the fire department comes in and they have to get out what happens? I guess when they are delayed because of the added traffic, school busses and parents picking up their kids we'll all understand, after all the traffic increase won't be as bad as if we had a supermarket there. Just a little thought.

Posted on: 2008/7/16 2:38
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Well, many people I know in the Heights were really looking forward to a cleaner, bigger, "better" supermarket. There is actually not much selection of good produce in the Heights. The new Stop and Shop would have had ample parking space and traffic would have possibly been heavier but remember there is already a Stop and Shop a few blocks away (with a lousy parking lot and so-so produce) so traffic would have increased but not by too much more unless it were a real magnet. Protecting the jobs on Central? The "mom and pop" stores are run by families that are not firing anyone. They have survived a Stop and Shop for years, a new one a few blocks further away might have an effect but I don't see it being devastating. There are more groceries open on Central that sell some prepared foods than there were five years ago. They are somewhat unique and I wouldn't expect that the new Stop and Shop would close them down. Bill Gaughan was probably propped up to read that quite intelligent statement he is attributed with. If you look at it closely you understand the great sense of pride many of us have for our Councilman. (<-- sarcasm) If you continue his thought, "because with all these young people we don't really need a good supermarket. We are better served by overpriced junk food and greasy food places as you have in the Heights." So I guess it was one or the other, Stop and Shop or schools, and no other motive was at play here. (You are not against schools right?) I have no idea what other motives might exist but I really have not thought for a moment that his explanation even touched upon the real reason. Incidentally, it really is insulting to the public to consider his work public service. So, some people have visited the Heights recently and don't see signs of gentrification. OK, well I'm here daily and by any stretch of the definition it is gentrifying. I think there was a really heavy increase in Hispanic arrivals in the last three years. I often wonder if they fled Downtown. But there has been a steady increase in yuppies of all colors and ethnicities and that means gentrification. As a homeowner I enjoy the fruits of a neighborhood that is being filled with people that outwardly show their concern for others through their own actions and words and the effort they put in to keep their own shit in their own shitbucket and pride for their house/apt/block/building and all those good things. I still have not been convinced that people who work and care about their surroundings and have the decency to not impose in many ways on others are bad for a neighborhood. I have seen a lot of yuppies act this way. So I hope they move here in droves. If multi-family building owners wised up, cleaned up their buildings and put some effort into attracting a better tenant they would be rewarded. It really is not a new idea. Some of them in the Heights are getting it. Every year actually in our area of the Heights one or two more multifamilies near us gets fixed up and new tenants come in that keep it up. It is nice to see. Soon enough there will be serious discussion on a thread about a WF in the Heights. (OK scratch the last sentence.)

Posted on: 2008/7/16 1:41
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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I was thinking the same thing Mathias. I was just in the Heights a few weeks ago and it sure dosnt look like its anywhere close to gentrified like Ive read in this post. I think its a positive for the area if the school went there, just my two cents.

Posted on: 2008/7/15 22:38
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Mathias wrote:
I think the Stop and Shop would have been a better move. The store would have created permanent well paying union jobs (with great health care benefits) for area residents.


Don't you think the area residents benefits more from clean modern schools? The grocery service is a zero sum game, jobs added at the S&S would take jobs from the mom & pops. I don't necessarily think protecting them was the best plan on it's own, but compared to new schools, for which empty lots are scarce in the heights, it seems a no brainer. There was talk of filling in the reservoir for school grounds, this is better than that too.

Posted on: 2008/7/15 21:55
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Re: Two schools, not supermart slated for Heights lot
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Home away from home
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2014/1/22 9:03
From The Heights
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GrovePath wrote:
Anyone from the Heights have any perspective on all this?

A Stop and Shop mega-store would bring a lot more unwanted car traffic to the Heights but I doubt it would hurt local merchants any more than the existing Stop and Shop already does -- and though quaint a lot of city delis/bodegas/fruit stores are really over priced and horrible.

Also is there really a baby boom happening in the Heights - I would think that as the area gentrifies somewhat you would see fewer kids per house not more.



The area really is not being "gentrified." There is an increasing Latino and South East Asian population. The area remains, as it has been since I was a young kid a mostly working class area with a mix of some seedy streets and a few really nice ones.

Don't look for a Starbucks or American Apparel to open up anytime soon on Central Ave.

I think the Stop and Shop would have been a better move. The store would have created permanent well paying union jobs (with great health care benefits) for area residents.

Posted on: 2008/7/15 20:37
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