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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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hero69 wrote:
why isn't nj actively thinking about increasing gas, cigarette and alcohol taxes. What about revenue from legalized marijuana.

so far, i have been UNDERWHELMED by Sweeney...the guys seems to be lacking although he is a vast improvement over that last clown.


You do know Murphy, not Sweeney, is the Governor, right?

Posted on: 2018/6/4 18:03
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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why isn't nj actively thinking about increasing gas, cigarette and alcohol taxes. What about revenue from legalized marijuana.

so far, i have been UNDERWHELMED by Sweeney...the guys seems to be lacking although he is a vast improvement over that last clown.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 17:50
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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T-Bird wrote:
Untrue. People working here but living outside JC could choose to work elsewhere. Or they could move to JC. They do have choices. They may not like them, but they have them.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote: I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.


You missed the point I was trying to make. I was not referring to a payroll tax, but to the school funding provided by the state from the funds paid by other municipalities.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 17:34
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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JC's local fair share number is actually artificially low, because PILOT properties don't count towards the tax base-if they were, JC's local fair share would be 75 million higher.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:43
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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T-Bird wrote:
I guess those vaunted NJ suburban schools failed you. Again, the subject is Sweeney.

Go over to the Abbot thread and rub yourself blind.


Hahah someone is mad the rest of the state woke up to the raw deal they were getting, and is scared of the next round of tax hikes that are inevitable.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:41
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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bodhipooh wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Doesn't it smack you of "taxation without representation?"

No more so than if I went into NY and had to pay higher sales tax. I don't get a say. There's a pretty good argument for this merely from a macro POV, these employees drive JC roads and benefit from JC 1st responder services, etc without paying anything to this city. I've heard this argument defending NYC's tax. It makes a lot of sense for a city with a big non-resident commuter population, unlike many sprawling smaller cities in this country that include much of the nearby suburbs in their borders.

Sure you can argue their employers pay property tax or PILOTS, and they spend money here, but that's not nearly as much as if they lived here.

That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the city exempts nonresident city employees.


I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.

The situation about over-aid of the local BOE is a tricky one, and I don't pretend for a second to have a solution. But, I do know this situation is untenable for much longer. In the eyes of other municipalities, we are getting a sweet deal by assuming a tiny portion of our local BOE, assessing a paltry 0.4% for our schools, and yet refusing to find ways to streamline operations, or cut back, but smugly accepting their money to enable the situation while claiming poverty. Clearly, this is now a hot button issue, and I very much doubt it will go away. The reval simply exposed what many had suspected, and now a day of reckoning may be upon us.


This board just closed a $75 million gap. Board members also want a forensic audit to get rid of more waste.

I'd like to see other districts make those choices before demanding redistribution. Particularly in K-8 micro districts where you have a superintendent earning six figures to oversee three schools.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:29
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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T-Bird wrote:
I guess those vaunted NJ suburban schools failed you. Again, the subject is Sweeney.

Go over to the Abbot thread and rub yourself blind.


Virtually identical legislation was proposed earlier in May by Sandra Cunningham and Brian Stack, Sweeney then got on board. 200 million in local fair share is the number JC can afford to pay and doesn't want to is the issue.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:18
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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I guess those vaunted NJ suburban schools failed you. Again, the subject is Sweeney.

Go over to the Abbot thread and rub yourself blind.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:07
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Monroe wrote:
Brewster, 80,000 people commute to work in JC every day? Care to cite something to show this??


Top right graph
http://www.nj.gov/labor/lpa/content/C ... 0Population%20Poster3.pdf


On the general point, I've already said many time I think the BOA is overspending. But the situation is unfixable in the short term, we're dealing with extremely powerful unions and entrenched interests. Look at the teachers contract, they tried to reduce costs by freezing wages and asking for healthcare contribution, since actual wage reduction was out of the realm of possibility. JC teachers are paid in the 94th percentile of big districts in NJ and therefore are basically the best paid in the nation http://www.nj.gov/cgi-bin/education/c ... dist_code2390&maxhits=650, but the teachers got hysterical and struck. Labor is where the money is, and good luck with that.

Here's the proposed budget, tell us where to cut and how.

http://www.jcboe.org/boe2015/images/p ... et-SY2018-19_03.28.18.pdf

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:05
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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It is unfair that suburban districts pay money to Jersey City for our schools. We have plenty of money here. That needs to change. Newark has plenty of money too. The Abbot program should end.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 16:04
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Yes and the subject is that JC is likely to lose suburban tax school funding, and rather than raise it's low tax rate to do so it wants to have it funded by others-again.

The state has already determined that JC underpays its 'local fair share' by 200 million dollars a year, but Fulop and Hudson County legislators (and now Sweeney, too) are doing everything they can to avoid JC paying its fair share.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 15:57
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Monroe wrote:
The thread is about JC looking for more ways to avoid self funding it own school children's education.


Holy shit. Here is the title of the thread:

"Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools"

It's literally (the most overused word of the decade, but made for this particular sentence) about the president of the senate suggesting a payroll tax.

Subject: Sweeney
Verb: proposes
Object: tax

There is a thread just a few down from this one:

"Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?" for your school funding circle jerk.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 15:42
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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The thread is about JC looking for more ways to avoid self funding it own school children's education.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 15:22
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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That may be what you are choosing to talk about. Bodhipooh was responding to Brewster's comment about non-resident employees working in Jersey City - which, in fact, is what the thread is about.

You are free to try to hijack every thread to fit your agenda, as you often do. We don't have to play along.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
Untrue. People working here but living outside JC could choose to work elsewhere. Or they could move to JC. They do have choices. They may not like them, but they have them.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote: I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.


To the school funding issue we're talking about, non-residents don't have a choice over the redistribution of tax money for schools. Trenton takes into account what it feels is the ability of each town to self fund their own schools, and gives much less back to affluent towns, more to others, and an obscene amount to Abbott districts. I guess someone from, say, Mendham could 'choose' to move to East Orange, but that's not really a choice, is it?

Posted on: 2018/6/4 15:06
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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T-Bird wrote:
Untrue. People working here but living outside JC could choose to work elsewhere. Or they could move to JC. They do have choices. They may not like them, but they have them.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote: I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.


To the school funding issue we're talking about, non-residents don't have a choice over the redistribution of tax money for schools. Trenton takes into account what it feels is the ability of each town to self fund their own schools, and gives much less back to affluent towns, more to others, and an obscene amount to Abbott districts. I guess someone from, say, Mendham could 'choose' to move to East Orange, but that's not really a choice, is it?

Posted on: 2018/6/4 14:58
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Untrue. People working here but living outside JC could choose to work elsewhere. Or they could move to JC. They do have choices. They may not like them, but they have them.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote: I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 14:51
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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bodhipooh wrote:

It sort of proves the point that once the government gets to enjoy the proceeds of a tax, it will find ways to spend it and be in need of more.


NJ imposed an income tax in 1976 to offset property taxes. Today we both have high income taxes and property taxes

Posted on: 2018/6/4 13:07
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Ain't that something? ;)

It sort of proves the point that once the government gets to enjoy the proceeds of a tax, it will find ways to spend it and be in need of more.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 12:18
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Doesn't it smack you of "taxation without representation?"

No more so than if I went into NY and had to pay higher sales tax. I don't get a say. There's a pretty good argument for this merely from a macro POV, these employees drive JC roads and benefit from JC 1st responder services, etc without paying anything to this city. I've heard this argument defending NYC's tax. It makes a lot of sense for a city with a big non-resident commuter population, unlike many sprawling smaller cities in this country that include much of the nearby suburbs in their borders.

Sure you can argue their employers pay property tax or PILOTS, and they spend money here, but that's not nearly as much as if they lived here.

That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the city exempts nonresident city employees.


I dont think the sales tax analogy is an apt one: you can *choose* not to shop in NYC and instead take your money elsewhere. And, that's exactly the point: non JC residents lack that choice when it comes to their money and its "transfer" to the city's coffers.

The situation about over-aid of the local BOE is a tricky one, and I don't pretend for a second to have a solution. But, I do know this situation is untenable for much longer. In the eyes of other municipalities, we are getting a sweet deal by assuming a tiny portion of our local BOE, assessing a paltry 0.4% for our schools, and yet refusing to find ways to streamline operations, or cut back, but smugly accepting their money to enable the situation while claiming poverty. Clearly, this is now a hot button issue, and I very much doubt it will go away. The reval simply exposed what many had suspected, and now a day of reckoning may be upon us.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 12:16
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Posted on: 2018/6/4 12:06
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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TheBigGuy wrote:
Refresh my memory... wasn't there supposed to be a hotel room tax that was supposed to allocated to schools? They want to be revenue creative, the city should be going after AirBnBs. I see more people @ Grove or Exchange with large suitcases and they do not appear to be looking for hotels.


In general, I dislike the idea of enacting new taxes that enable government to avoid having to deal with problems, but this is not a bad idea. A tax on AirBnB, or other short-term rentals, could be a more palatable solution that does not screw with residents, or the business base that has undoubtedly contributed to JC's resurgence. The city should get creative about solutions that can generate revenue without shafting the residents, but they should also really go after fiscal improvements. It is simply too easy to say "well, it is hard to find ways to save money." Do we really want to empower the local government to keep dreaming up new taxes without some accountability about its spending?

Posted on: 2018/6/4 12:01
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Refresh my memory... wasn't there supposed to be a hotel room tax that was supposed to allocated to schools? They want to be revenue creative, the city should be going after AirBnBs. I see more people @ Grove or Exchange with large suitcases and they do not appear to be looking for hotels.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 9:52
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Brewster, 80,000 people commute to work in JC every day? Care to cite something to show this?? In any case, I'm ok with a payroll tax as long as all workers in JC, not just those who aren't JC residents, are subject to it. Fair is fair.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 3:58
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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brewster wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Brewster, I'm ok with the tax-but disturbed that JC would find a way to exempt JC residents from the tax.


Why? Something well north of 80k people commute to JC, that's what it was a decade ago, best data I could find. They spend at least 40 hrs a week here, why is it outrageous to suggest they contribute more than maybe buying lunch?

As for school aid, bullshit. You've made clear for years that you want state support to JC ended, not just cut back to SFRA levels. Your stuff is nothing more than classic right wing social darwinism orthodoxy: everyone look out for themselves, and justify failure with your armchair sociology.


Nonsense. I believe that inner cities should get support from more affluent areas. That said, the big beef amongst NJ legislators is that JC gets preferential treatment over other low/middle class districts like Bayonne, or Dover, etc who really are getting screwed. And JC mayors gave out PILOTS like crack dealers giving a free sample, ensuring that tax money goes to the general fund (so the mayors can spend it as they want) instead of the BOE getting some of the cash. It's a scam, and now even other NJ Democrats are fed up.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 3:54
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Brewster, I'm ok with the tax-but disturbed that JC would find a way to exempt JC residents from the tax.


Why? Something well north of 80k people commute to JC, that's what it was a decade ago, best data I could find. They spend at least 40 hrs a week here, why is it outrageous to suggest they contribute more than maybe buying lunch?

As for school aid, bullshit. You've made clear for years that you want state support to JC ended, not just cut back to SFRA levels. Your stuff is nothing more than classic right wing social darwinism orthodoxy: everyone look out for themselves, and justify failure with your armchair sociology.


State aid should be completely cut off in a city where 1/3 of the buildings contribute ZERO to schools because of abatements, while at the same time spending like crazy. . Period. End of story. Until the property tax rate in JC approaches average, you should not complain whatsoever if our benefactors (homeowners in the rest of state) resent JC for this.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 3:47
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Monroe wrote:
Brewster, I'm ok with the tax-but disturbed that JC would find a way to exempt JC residents from the tax.


Why? Something well north of 80k people commute to JC, that's what it was a decade ago, best data I could find. They spend at least 40 hrs a week here, why is it outrageous to suggest they contribute more than maybe buying lunch?

As for school aid, bullshit. You've made clear for years that you want state support to JC ended, not just cut back to SFRA levels. Your stuff is nothing more than classic right wing social darwinism orthodoxy: everyone look out for themselves, and justify failure with your armchair sociology.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 3:33
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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No, Monroe. Don't you know it's racist these days to even suggest personal responsibility as a course of action?? Tsk, tsk, this board is going to eat you alive for that one LMAO.

Jokes aside, Monroe nailed it with the point that no one is saying prevent JC from using the payroll tax. But again, with very little skin in the game, behavior won't change. The reval is the greatest thing to happen to JC for all the reasons Monroe listed. Will steve be able to fund his pet projects to keep the locals asleep, and still keep taxes flat now?

We all can't wait to see!

Posted on: 2018/6/4 2:41
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Brewster, I'm ok with the tax-but disturbed that JC would find a way to exempt JC residents from the tax. That's patently unfair. Even Newark doesn't do that. Until JC has skin in the game there isn't any chance of cost containment.

Look how after the reval the DTJC people are now starting to question spending, since they're now finally paying their fair share as an example.

As far as inner city schools, more money isn't the answer. Look at how much Asbury Park spends-over $33K/year/student, and local taxpayers pay under 9% of the costs. And performance is pathetic. It's involved parents (like in Union City) that drive better schools, not total spending, in the inner cities. Uninvolved parents are the curse, not state funding.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 2:10
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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Monroe wrote:
When suburban taxpayers pump 1.2 billion dollars into JC schools every three years-which spend 25% more per student than the state average, and have putrid graduation rates (minus McNair), you're damn right other state taxpayers get a say. And they do, finally, through the state legislators who see how unfair it is to their own cities and schools.


It's a big jump to get from saying the state should not transfer your money to JC to saying JC can't be allowed to raise tax money how it wishes, with in-state precedent no less.

And I'm so tired of your citing poor performance as justification for defunding these schools, like that would help. You honestly couldn't give a crap how they perform, as long as you didn't have to pay for them. Poorly performing inner city schools are a universal problem in this country, JC is not an outlier. Most of your rhetoric shows you don't believe in the basic idea of Abbott/SFRA, that poor districts should not be abandoned to their own resources while wealthy ones like Short Hills can give a cadillac education to their kids.

Posted on: 2018/6/4 2:06
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Re: Sweeney proposes slapping payroll tax on Jersey City businesses to fund schools
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JP, the suburban towns fund their school systems to a great extent (you mentioned the Short Hills Mall-Millburn/Short Hills pays almost 90% of its own school costs). Money that towns like that send to Trenton gets sent for Abbott districts like Newark and JC-which total almost $1.5 billion each year between them.


Posted on: 2018/6/4 2:06
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