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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Does anyone know how to remove tax abatement from a property? Just got the new assesment and heading to City Hall tomorrow.

Bought a condo on Westside last year near Mallory and knew taxes were too high because it was originally sold at peak of 2005 with abatement. Now I get a tax bill and city is increasing the % on the improvements. If I were to get rid of the abatement it will save me more than 30% for 2018! Kicker is with abatement dropped some of that money will go to school system that badly needs it.

We knew that people in Greenville, B/L & Westside were subsidizing rest of downtown Hamilton Park but this is just crazy.If you have an abated property make sure to compare what it would be without it.


Yvonne, do you have anything to say about this?

I find it interesting because only improvements can receive an tax abatement. Land is taxed normally.

Are you seriously suggesting that because of the reval, your taxes are going up and you would pay 30% less if you were taxed normally?

Can anyone else help me understand this situation?


Paging Yvonne


It's really a question for the tax office. Under a standard 5-year abatement for improvements, you get something like a 25% exemption. That exemption should apply to the post-reval assessment if you're still in the abatement period. What you can't do is appeal taxes during an abatement.

Sounds like JC_Rider is in one of the piloted properties that has a longer abatement. Different rules to the 5-year. Need an expert to figure it out - might even be worth hiring an attorney to renegotiate.

Posted on: 3/11 23:00
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JC_rider wrote:
Does anyone know how to remove tax abatement from a property? Just got the new assesment and heading to City Hall tomorrow.

Bought a condo on Westside last year near Mallory and knew taxes were too high because it was originally sold at peak of 2005 with abatement. Now I get a tax bill and city is increasing the % on the improvements. If I were to get rid of the abatement it will save me more than 30% for 2018! Kicker is with abatement dropped some of that money will go to school system that badly needs it.

We knew that people in Greenville, B/L & Westside were subsidizing rest of downtown Hamilton Park but this is just crazy.If you have an abated property make sure to compare what it would be without it.


Yvonne, do you have anything to say about this?

I find it interesting because only improvements can receive an tax abatement. Land is taxed normally.

Are you seriously suggesting that because of the reval, your taxes are going up and you would pay 30% less if you were taxed normally?

Can anyone else help me understand this situation?


Paging Yvonne

Posted on: 3/11 22:00
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an investor that didn't due their due diligence deserves what's coming to them.

I'm not so sure about that. People buying a house talk to their lawyer and broker. If neither of them tells the buyer about the reval, how would they know? The bank should know and tell them, since a value drop will change the LTV, but will they?

Dtjcview, that's very interesting about the Minnesota program. Fulop should be researching that.

Posted on: 3/11 17:27
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm a renter. but I do feel for my long-time neighbors who planned on retiring here, and will now probably have to sell. good for them for getting squillions on a home they bought for very little, decades ago. but it's a big bummer to have to uproot yourself in your golden years, just because you are now sitting on a hot property.

likewise, if my landlord has to double my rent, he'll lose a known tenant who's been trouble-free for years. instead he'll have to deal with someone new, who might make extra demands in line with market-rate rent, yet he'll have no extra $$ in the bank in exchange for that headache.

yes, of course he can sell. but he too was planning on retiring here, so please refer to paragraph one of my post.


A couple of thoughts:
- the hypothetical owner of your post would have many more options than just “will have to sell”. Among them: reverse mortgage, HE loan, HE LOC, etc.

- no renter would see his rent double because his landlord's taxes have doubled. That’s sheer misunderstanding of the numbers involved. Take the extreme example of a homeowner going from 20K to 40K. If that landlord had a single tenant, and he wanted to pass on the entirety of the tax increase onto the tenant, that means charging an additional $1,666/month. That’s only a doubling if the tenant is only paying 1,666/mo today, which seems unlikely for that kind of property. That would be an easy one to fight in housing court.


$1666/month would not double my rent, it's true. but can you name anyone in your social circle who could handle that kind of increase, even if it's only 50%?



This is nonsense. A landlord's operating cost doesn't determine how much rent that can charged. The market does that.

Take for example a rental property in Greenville that will see their taxes halved from $6,000 a year to $3,000 a year thanks to the reval. The landlord isn't going to lower their rents and pass on the savings to their renters. They're going to continue to charge whatever the market is willing to bear. All else equal, the landlord will have an additional $3,000 a year in positive cash flow (less any state and federal taxes for the $3,000 in additional taxable income) thanks to the reval.

A leveraged property investor who recently bought a downtown property for rental purposes and will see their property taxes double can't just pass on the property tax increase to their renters. The renters will move out to other areas of town with more reasonable rents. The property will sit vacant if the rent is higher than what people are willing to pay. In other words, a landlord cannot charge more than what the market is willing to pay.

It's very possible recent investors that bought downtown may have to sell (possibly at a loss) or continue to eat the negative cash flow caused by the reval. I don't know how many years now people have been warning about the reval in the downtown market, and an investor that didn't due their due diligence deserves what's coming to them.

Economics 101 people.



Posted on: 3/11 14:44
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Needs to be state driven, IMO. Property tax deferral for retirees with the accumulated balance plus interest due upon sale.


The state is not involved in the property taxation process at all, it's the cities and counties, why should they get involved in this solution?


The NJ senior freeze program is run by the state. And states like Minnesota run their tax deferral (reverse mortgage-like) program. Consistent and independent governance, consistency of policies, economies of scale...some good reasons to manage at the state level.

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/ptr/

https://jux.law/senior-citizen-propert ... l-minnesota-property-tax/

Posted on: 3/11 14:16
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Needs to be state driven, IMO. Property tax deferral for retirees with the accumulated balance plus interest due upon sale.


The state is not involved in the property taxation process at all, it's the cities and counties, why should they get involved in this solution?

Posted on: 3/11 13:49
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm a renter. but I do feel for my long-time neighbors who planned on retiring here, and will now probably have to sell. good for them for getting squillions on a home they bought for very little, decades ago. but it's a big bummer to have to uproot yourself in your golden years, just because you are now sitting on a hot property.

likewise, if my landlord has to double my rent, he'll lose a known tenant who's been trouble-free for years. instead he'll have to deal with someone new, who might make extra demands in line with market-rate rent, yet he'll have no extra $$ in the bank in exchange for that headache.

yes, of course he can sell. but he too was planning on retiring here, so please refer to paragraph one of my post.


A couple of thoughts:
- the hypothetical owner of your post would have many more options than just “will have to sell”. Among them: reverse mortgage, HE loan, HE LOC, etc.

- no renter would see his rent double because his landlord's taxes have doubled. That’s sheer misunderstanding of the numbers involved. Take the extreme example of a homeowner going from 20K to 40K. If that landlord had a single tenant, and he wanted to pass on the entirety of the tax increase onto the tenant, that means charging an additional $1,666/month. That’s only a doubling if the tenant is only paying 1,666/mo today, which seems unlikely for that kind of property. That would be an easy one to fight in housing court.


$1666/month would not double my rent, it's true. but can you name anyone in your social circle who could handle that kind of increase, even if it's only 50%?


Posted on: 3/11 13:33
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Total fees will be closer to $15,000 at the end of the day. Loan origination is just one of several.


Apparently the other biggest chunk is the Mortgage Insurance Premium, which can be 2% of value, but the important thing not broadcast is that if you take a "line of credit" style reverse, the MIP at origination is a fraction of that, it's dependent on your loan balance. My impression is a lot of the abusive loans came from brokers who were paid more for lump sum rather than line of credit style loans. Lump sum was certainly inappropriate for the lady in the article.

As I've said before, it would be so much better if the city set this up themselves to securitize "reverse mortgage" style tax liens for homeowners who met certain qualifications of age or income. It would be a win all around with less fear for homeowners and less uncertainty for the city coffers.


Needs to be state driven, IMO. Property tax deferral for retirees with the accumulated balance plus interest due upon sale.

Posted on: 3/10 22:29
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JCGuys wrote:
Total fees will be closer to $15,000 at the end of the day. Loan origination is just one of several.


Apparently the other biggest chunk is the Mortgage Insurance Premium, which can be 2% of value, but the important thing not broadcast is that if you take a "line of credit" style reverse, the MIP at origination is a fraction of that, it's dependent on your loan balance. My impression is a lot of the abusive loans came from brokers who were paid more for lump sum rather than line of credit style loans. Lump sum was certainly inappropriate for the lady in the article.

As I've said before, it would be so much better if the city set this up themselves to securitize "reverse mortgage" style tax liens for homeowners who met certain qualifications of age or income. It would be a win all around with less fear for homeowners and less uncertainty for the city coffers.

Posted on: 3/10 21:29
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This is one example of why it might not be the best idea.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/20 ... r_eviction_from_home.html


The numbers and timeline in that article make no sense and do not add up. She got $104k on a $300k house in 2004 and it was gone by 2007? By a few years later the loan balance was $300k? WTF?

As far as I can tell she must have squandered most of the loan in some way, and was robbed by the shady bank of the remaining $180k of equity in her home, there's no explanation other than a mixup of mailing addresses. Even the article states "Reverse mortgage foreclosures are rare, and evictions rarer, experts say."

These are the scare stories I am very dubious about. There was no reason to lump sum this rather than take the taxes out every year like it was a line of credit. When I looked at the fees, they seemed to be about $4k to originate the loan, I don't see that as ridiculously high for the service rendered.

A little reading has revealed that some of these are set up to fail, the banks take no measures to insure taxes are paid the way they do with a standard mortgage and escrow. This is a huge hole in the system.


Total fees will be closer to $15,000 at the end of the day. Loan origination is just one of several. But I agree with you that something in that story just doesn't add up... From the way it's told, it sounds like everyone conspired to screw over this poor old lady, even the courts. I'm willing to bet there is some pertinent information left out since it's so one-sided and gets political.

Posted on: 3/10 20:03
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This is one example of why it might not be the best idea.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/20 ... r_eviction_from_home.html


The numbers and timeline in that article make no sense and do not add up. She got $104k on a $300k house in 2004 and it was gone by 2007? By a few years later the loan balance was $300k? WTF?

As far as I can tell she must have squandered most of the loan in some way, and was robbed by the shady bank of the remaining $180k of equity in her home, there's no explanation other than a mixup of mailing addresses. Even the article states "Reverse mortgage foreclosures are rare, and evictions rarer, experts say."

These are the scare stories I am very dubious about. There was no reason to lump sum this rather than take the taxes out every year like it was a line of credit. When I looked at the fees, they seemed to be about $4k to originate the loan, I don't see that as ridiculously high for the service rendered.

A little reading has revealed that some of these are set up to fail, the banks take no measures to insure taxes are paid the way they do with a standard mortgage and escrow. This is a huge hole in the system.

Posted on: 3/10 17:02
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Ins't there also other programs like reverse mortgages which would allow someone to cash out their equity and live in the home for the rest of their lives. Not that I would ever recommend a reverse mortgage, but just pointing out it's an option if someone wanted to stay.


Please explain why you would never recommend a reverse mortgage to pay the taxes. I cannot find any legit criticism of using a 'reverse' in this way, only of pulling out large lump sums for stupid reasons. Someone 70 years old with $2m in equity and low income can pay their taxes easily for the rest of their lives, and maybe even have some extra pocket money, rather moving or sitting in their gold plated home feeling poor.

Do the numbers, it would take more than 25 years of zero appreciation to eat half their equity by paying their tax, and no one thinks there will be zero appreciation. Complaining about taxes because they wanted to leave the now valuable house to their heirs is not a reason to feel sorry for anyone.


I would recommend selling and downsizing to a rental. Avoid the high fees that comes with reverse mortgages.

Posted on: 3/10 16:06
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This is one example of why it might not be the best idea.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/20 ... r_eviction_from_home.html


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brewster wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
Ins't there also other programs like reverse mortgages which would allow someone to cash out their equity and live in the home for the rest of their lives. Not that I would ever recommend a reverse mortgage, but just pointing out it's an option if someone wanted to stay.


Please explain why you would never recommend a reverse mortgage to pay the taxes. I cannot find any legit criticism of using a 'reverse' in this way, only of pulling out large lump sums for stupid reasons. Someone 70 years old with $2m in equity and low income can pay their taxes easily for the rest of their lives, and maybe even have some extra pocket money, rather moving or sitting in their gold plated home feeling poor.

Do the numbers, it would take more than 25 years of zero appreciation to eat half their equity by paying their tax, and no one thinks there will be zero appreciation. Complaining about taxes because they wanted to leave the now valuable house to their heirs is not a reason to feel sorry for anyone.

Posted on: 3/10 16:01
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Ins't there also other programs like reverse mortgages which would allow someone to cash out their equity and live in the home for the rest of their lives. Not that I would ever recommend a reverse mortgage, but just pointing out it's an option if someone wanted to stay.


Please explain why you would never recommend a reverse mortgage to pay the taxes. I cannot find any legit criticism of using a 'reverse' in this way, only of pulling out large lump sums for stupid reasons. Someone 70 years old with $2m in equity and low income can pay their taxes easily for the rest of their lives, and maybe even have some extra pocket money, rather moving or sitting in their gold plated home feeling poor.

Do the numbers, it would take more than 25 years of zero appreciation to eat half their equity by paying their tax, and no one thinks there will be zero appreciation. Complaining about taxes because they wanted to leave the now valuable house to their heirs is not a reason to feel sorry for anyone.

Posted on: 3/10 15:25
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Looking at http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

It's possible to figure out the land value for properties with abatements:
2018 Assmt Total - 2018 Assmt Exempt = value of land


ranging from 50,000 to 70,000 for townhomes on Grant Ave. Thoughts?

Posted on: 3/10 1:06
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jctexan wrote:
Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm a renter. but I do feel for my long-time neighbors who planned on retiring here, and will now probably have to sell. good for them for getting squillions on a home they bought for very little, decades ago. but it's a big bummer to have to uproot yourself in your golden years, just because you are now sitting on a hot property.

likewise, if my landlord has to double my rent, he'll lose a known tenant who's been trouble-free for years. instead he'll have to deal with someone new, who might make extra demands in line with market-rate rent, yet he'll have no extra $$ in the bank in exchange for that headache.

yes, of course he can sell. but he too was planning on retiring here, so please refer to paragraph one of my post.


A couple of thoughts:
- the hypothetical owner of your post would have many more options than just “will have to sell”. Among them: reverse mortgage, HE loan, HE LOC, etc.

- no renter would see his rent double because his landlord's taxes have doubled. That’s sheer misunderstanding of the numbers involved. Take the extreme example of a homeowner going from 20K to 40K. If that landlord had a single tenant, and he wanted to pass on the entirety of the tax increase onto the tenant, that means charging an additional $1,666/month. That’s only a doubling if the tenant is only paying 1,666/mo today, which seems unlikely for that kind of property. That would be an easy one to fight in housing court.

Posted on: 3/10 0:31
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


likewise, if my landlord has to double my rent, he'll lose a known tenant who's been trouble-free for years. instead he'll have to deal with someone new, who might make extra demands in line with market-rate rent, yet he'll have no extra $$ in the bank in exchange for that headache.

yes, of course he can sell. but he too was planning on retiring here, so please refer to paragraph one of my post.


No landlord is going to double the rent. As you mentioned, most people will move. The way I see it, downtown landlords will stop having their operating expenses subsidized by the poor people in Greenville. It was like reverse Robinhood.

Landlords may actually be okay with the new federal tax laws. The $10,000 cap on state and local taxes is not applicable to revenue from rental properties; All of the taxes paid are deductible for federal income taxes purposes and the tax rate has also been decreased, especially for passive income.

So again, your SOB stories about DTJC homeowners and landlords that have to sell because they've made millions on their property's appreciation is illogical. Adding insult to injury, they have been subsidized by the poorest areas of Jersey City for over a quarter century.


Posted on: 3/9 19:37
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm a renter. but I do feel for my long-time neighbors who planned on retiring here, and will now probably have to sell. good for them for getting squillions on a home they bought for very little, decades ago. but it's a big bummer to have to uproot yourself in your golden years, just because you are now sitting on a hot property.


This makes no sense. They could sell the property and continue to live in the area by renting. They would have a very comfortable retirement. Ins't there also other programs like reverse mortgages which would allow someone to cash out their equity and live in the home for the rest of their lives. Not that I would ever recommend a reverse mortgage, but just pointing out it's an option if someone wanted to stay.

Posted on: 3/9 19:29
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm a renter. but I do feel for my long-time neighbors who planned on retiring here, and will now probably have to sell. good for them for getting squillions on a home they bought for very little, decades ago. but it's a big bummer to have to uproot yourself in your golden years, just because you are now sitting on a hot property.

likewise, if my landlord has to double my rent, he'll lose a known tenant who's been trouble-free for years. instead he'll have to deal with someone new, who might make extra demands in line with market-rate rent, yet he'll have no extra $$ in the bank in exchange for that headache.

yes, of course he can sell. but he too was planning on retiring here, so please refer to paragraph one of my post.

Posted on: 3/9 19:25
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What cracks me up is both DTJC and residents of other wards arguing over people paying their 'fair share', while being supported by suburban taxpayers to the tune of $500 million a year to support JC schools.


True statement.

Posted on: 3/9 18:56
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Does anyone know how to remove tax abatement from a property? Just got the new assesment and heading to City Hall tomorrow.

Bought a condo on Westside last year near Mallory and knew taxes were too high because it was originally sold at peak of 2005 with abatement. Now I get a tax bill and city is increasing the % on the improvements. If I were to get rid of the abatement it will save me more than 30% for 2018! Kicker is with abatement dropped some of that money will go to school system that badly needs it.

We knew that people in Greenville, B/L & Westside were subsidizing rest of downtown Hamilton Park but this is just crazy.If you have an abated property make sure to compare what it would be without it.


Yvonne, do you have anything to say about this?

I find it interesting because only improvements can receive an tax abatement. Land is taxed normally.

Are you seriously suggesting that because of the reval, your taxes are going up and you would pay 30% less if you were taxed normally?

Can anyone else help me understand this situation?

Posted on: 3/9 18:55
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jctexan wrote:
Ha! Yes! But I was referring to the downtown crowd who think residents of Greenville and BeLa who were overpaying should have appealed. My point was that those who were overpaying would not have been able to successfully appeal based on downtown underpaying. Right?

Correct. They make it pretty clear that your best evidence is comps.

There's also this whole land/improvement split that I don't get.

If you're curious, the county guide to appeals is here:
https://secure.njappealonline.com/prod ... _InstructionsHandbook.pdf

Posted on: 3/8 22:22
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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jctexan wrote:
Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.


Can anyone find the tax dollars collected by each jersey city zip code?

Posted on: 3/8 22:14
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Dolomiti, you and Brewster and I seem to agree on these things, so I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m arguing with either one of you. You guys have really put in some time trying to call out these folks claiming unfairness. It’s unreal.

I’m really disheartened by the greed and audacity of longtime downtowners who claim in one breath to have spent decades creating and building this city and in another breath claiming that they had no idea about the taxes or that it comes as a complete shock. It’s really something else.

Posted on: 3/8 21:48
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Does anyone know how to remove tax abatement from a property? Just got the new assesment and heading to City Hall tomorrow.

Bought a condo on Westside last year near Mallory and knew taxes were too high because it was originally sold at peak of 2005 with abatement. Now I get a tax bill and city is increasing the % on the improvements. If I were to get rid of the abatement it will save me more than 30% for 2018! Kicker is with abatement dropped some of that money will go to school system that badly needs it.

We knew that people in Greenville, B/L & Westside were subsidizing rest of downtown Hamilton Park but this is just crazy.If you have an abated property make sure to compare what it would be without it.

Posted on: 3/8 21:45
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Ha! Yes! But I was referring to the downtown crowd who think residents of Greenville and BeLa who were overpaying should have appealed. My point was that those who were overpaying would not have been able to successfully appeal based on downtown underpaying. Right?

Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

jctexan wrote:
As for appealing, my understanding is that one can not use someone underpaying as the basis for a reduction, so what would the argument be for their appeal? Please don’t knee jerk respond. Really think it through with numbers.

This is my understanding. Hopefully, I won't get anything wildly wrong. ;)

Appeals are based on the claim that the city's assessment is too high. You have to prove them wrong, usually by providing 3-5 recent comparable sales. Alternately you can provide an appraisal, but in that case the appraiser must be available to testify. You only get an adjustment if the city's assessment is off by more than 15%.

My impression is that usually, if you're out of that 15% range, you'll get something. You can file yourself, it isn't terribly expensive or time-consuming. I have no idea if using an attorney increases your chances of success, or what happens if you appeal year after year.

You can't refer to the taxes other people are paying as part of the appeal process. All they care about are comps and/or an appraisal.

So: Let's say you bought your home in 2000, and your old tax bill was $10k. The city assesses your property in 2017 at $2,000,000 which means your new tax bill is around $32k. Ouch.

In order to successfully appeal, you must believe that either the city's 2017 assessment had to be off by more than 15%, or the value of your property immediately dropped more than 15%, or some combo thereof. Then, you have to be able to prove it with comparable sales.

Let's say that by fall 2018, the market crashes by 25%. You pull together comps that show the value at $1,500,000 and you get a full adjustment. Your new tax bill is $24k.

Is that numbery enough for you? ;)

Posted on: 3/8 21:30
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Ha! Yes! But I was referring to the downtown crowd who think residents of Greenville and BeLa who were overpaying should have appealed. My point was that those who were overpaying would not have been able to successfully appeal based on downtown underpaying. Right?

Posted on: 3/8 21:27
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brewster wrote:
...
I think most people saw that low assessment number and thought they better keep their mouths shut.


This is exactly what I thought in the first few years after I bought my property. My assessed value was 330k and I bought for 550k in 2005. Also, the property had a so-called 5-year abatement - I couldn't appeal before 2009.

Posted on: 3/8 21:27
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Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
That's like saying the city should remove every single traffic light, and make it the responsibility of individual drivers to know when to safely proceed at intersections.

Oh please, spare us the ridiculous nonsense. Obviously, not appealing property taxes is absolutely 100% nothing like removing every single traffic light.

sigh

You missed the point.

Since you appear to have problems with analogies, let me help you through this: The municipality has caused a problem by failing to uphold its legal responsibilities (removed traffic lights). You are throwing responsibility for fixing the situation on the citizens (crossing without lights). That won't work, because there is still a systemic problem (no lights) that individuals do not have the ability to fix.


Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
It is not the responsibility of tens of thousands of JC residents to fix a systemic refusal by the city to uphold its legal responsibilities.

No dispute about that. But it is up to an individual to appeal their taxes if they are unjust or unfair because they are too high.

No dispute, but you dispute it. That's a neat trick.


Quote:
That’s why there’s an appeal system and that’s how it works. An individual brings an appeal – get it…?

sigh

No, the purpose of the appeal system is to address what are supposed to be rare instances that the city's assessment is off by more than 15%. It is NOT supposed to fix a city-wide failure to obey state law. It also can't fix the cases where the assessment is too low.

Another issue is that tens of thousands of the people affected by this were not in a position to fix it. For example, let's say a landlord is paying more than she should in property taxes. Will she appeal? In fact, she has no reason to do so. Not only is the tax a deduction, she will merely pass on the costs to the renters. In a city where over 70% of properties are rentals, I'm sure that happened in lots of cases.


Quote:

Can’t disagree that Jersey City was wilfully negligent in neglecting to conduct revals for the past 30 or so years. Nevertheless an individual could have fixed their own problem all during that time with an appeal. It’s no secret and many people did appeal successfully. Stop crying now if you didn’t. I feel sorry for you, but you alone are responsible if you didn’t appeal.

<< rolleyes >>

I was undertaxed. Not overtaxed. My taxes are going up, and you don't hear me bitching about it. (Or appealing, the city's numbers are definitely with the 15% margin of error.)

I'm calling this out because of....
• The unfairness of the system
• How the municipality caused that unfairness
• How thousands of poor JC residents (probably mostly renters) got screwed by this
• The foolish claim that citizens can or should fix it themselves


Quote:
Steve Fulop was willfully and wantonly negligent when he stopped the reval after becoming mayor.

So... Fulop was deliberately negligent, but people are responsible for their own failure to appeal? Another neat trick.


Quote:
Oh, by the way, I think you’ll find that the road rules hold you responsible for safely proceeding at any time you’re driving on public roads – whether or not a traffic control signal is installed.

...yes, that's why it is an apt analogy. Even though it is the responsibility of the individual to act safely, the roads will not be safe when the city fails to do its part, and engineers in a city-wide structural failure. And throwing it back on the individual drivers doesn't work.[/quote]


Just to be clear. What distinguishes between your "eye rolls" and "sighs". Both are quite annoying and childish!

Posted on: 3/8 21:19
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
That's like saying the city should remove every single traffic light, and make it the responsibility of individual drivers to know when to safely proceed at intersections.

Oh please, spare us the ridiculous nonsense. Obviously, not appealing property taxes is absolutely 100% nothing like removing every single traffic light.

sigh

You missed the point.

Since you appear to have problems with analogies, let me help you through this: The municipality has caused a problem by failing to uphold its legal responsibilities (removed traffic lights). You are throwing responsibility for fixing the situation on the citizens (crossing without lights). That won't work, because there is still a systemic problem (no lights) that individuals do not have the ability to fix.


Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
It is not the responsibility of tens of thousands of JC residents to fix a systemic refusal by the city to uphold its legal responsibilities.

No dispute about that. But it is up to an individual to appeal their taxes if they are unjust or unfair because they are too high. [/quote]
No dispute, but you dispute it. That's a neat trick.


Quote:
That’s why there’s an appeal system and that’s how it works. An individual brings an appeal – get it…?

sigh

No, the purpose of the appeal system is to address what are supposed to be rare instances that the city's assessment is off by more than 15%. It is NOT supposed to fix a city-wide failure to obey state law. It also can't fix the cases where the assessment is too low.

Another issue is that tens of thousands of the people affected by this were not in a position to fix it. For example, let's say a landlord is paying more than she should in property taxes. Will she appeal? In fact, she has no reason to do so. Not only is the tax a deduction, she will merely pass on the costs to the renters. In a city where over 70% of properties are rentals, I'm sure that happened in lots of cases.


Quote:

Can’t disagree that Jersey City was wilfully negligent in neglecting to conduct revals for the past 30 or so years. Nevertheless an individual could have fixed their own problem all during that time with an appeal. It’s no secret and many people did appeal successfully. Stop crying now if you didn’t. I feel sorry for you, but you alone are responsible if you didn’t appeal.

<< rolleyes >>

I was undertaxed. Not overtaxed. My taxes are going up, and you don't hear me bitching about it. (Or appealing, the city's numbers are definitely with the 15% margin of error.)

I'm calling this out because of....
• The unfairness of the system
• How the municipality caused that unfairness
• How thousands of poor JC residents (probably mostly renters) got screwed by this
• The foolish claim that citizens can or should fix it themselves


Quote:
Steve Fulop was willfully and wantonly negligent when he stopped the reval after becoming mayor.

So... Fulop was deliberately negligent, but people are responsible for their own failure to appeal? Another neat trick.


Quote:
Oh, by the way, I think you’ll find that the road rules hold you responsible for safely proceeding at any time you’re driving on public roads – whether or not a traffic control signal is installed.

...yes, that's why it is an apt analogy. Even though it is the responsibility of the individual to act safely, the roads will not be safe when the city fails to do its part, and engineers in a city-wide structural failure. And throwing it back on the individual drivers doesn't work.

Posted on: 3/8 20:50
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