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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Lots of good ideas and analysis in here, trying to solve a real problem.

But I can't help thinking, this is all thinking too small.

Want to cut through a quiet residential neighborhood quickly in a car to get somewhere else, in Amsterdam or other Dutch cities? You literally can't.

Residential streets there have multiple forced turns, in maze-like patterns. Sometimes there's housing right smack where a through street would have run (great though it probably requires long-term planning and zoning changes); other times a formerly through street is retro-fitted with permeable barriers such as big planters, which let pedestrians and cyclists through but make cars go around (we can totally do this in JC, and it's popular in Portland).

In addition, basically every residential street has lots of traffic-calming structures like brick pavement, gently raised crosswalks with bumpouts on each side, strategically placed curbside parking or tree pits on alternates sides to guide drivers through gentle "S" movements (aka chicanes), etc. (we can totally do this in JC and we are already starting to do it).

The result is that locals can get into and out of their home streets easily enough, and they don't mind the slight delays that all of the above causes, because they're slowing down anyway, and because, you know, they live there, so they like traffic to be calm.

Whereas, rat-runners and short-cutters, while they can legally cut through neighborhoods as far as I know, are strongly disincentivized against it, because dealing with each slight delay across multiple streets and neighborhoods really adds up for someone who'd rather zip through. So they just take the few arterial roads instead like they're supposed to—no enforcement or special technology is necessary, and no one is pulled over for being "an outsider," etc.

Of course, the tragic side effects of this system is that top speeds of cars are reduced, leading to far fewer fatal and serious car crashes, while cycling and mass transit are boosted, leading to massive gains in public health and longevity, less air and noise pollution, more livable neighborhoods in general, and so forth.

Which is nice, if you're into that sort of thing.


Posted on: 2/8 13:32
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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+1 to Brewster's and T-Bird's idea. And +1 to Robin's point that this all could be done with license plate recognition.

And the problem of cut-through traffic likely will get even worse with the Jersey Avenue bridge. The software will need to be programmed so that anyone who exits at 14A, 14B or 14C, then enters the tunnel within an hour, gets a surcharge that is hefty enough to discourage use of the cut-through.

One hour sounds like the right interval to accommodate those who need to come into downtown JC to run an errand (such as a doctor's appointment) before proceeding to drive into Manhattan. We could try it, and modify the interval as necessary.

It would be great to figure out a way to get Waze and other GPS services to treat our local streets as closed.

And meanwhile, what about the suburban buses that exit at CC Blvd and then turn on Marin to go to the tunnel? Could we get them to modify their driving routes?


Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
I've said this before, all you'd need to do to eliminate much of the through traffic is create a 1 hr EZ pass lockout or big surcharge at the Holland for anyone exiting the TPK at exits 14 A, B or C before the 12th st ramp. They'd need to put pass readers past the Columbus ramp, but the rest is software. Yes, cash payers can avoid it, but that brings it's own time penalty.

The tag system would never work here, our cops don't do traffic enforcement, apparently it's beneath them.


I've said the same thing, for years. It's a pretty simple, yet elegant solution.

Posted on: 2/6 19:09
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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That area was recently ranked 2nd as the most congested in the country.

Here's an update on the ban.

https://www.njtvonline.org/news/video/ ... ordinance-remains-effect/



Posted on: 2/6 13:40
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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By Sara Jerde sjerde@njadvancemedia.com,
NJ Advance Media for NJ.com

A resident of Edgewater filed a complaint Tuesday against Leonia over the town's new rule about who can drive on its roads -- a measure locals say is meant to curb traffic congestion caused by commuters looking for a shortcut to the George Washington Bridge.

Jacqueline Rosa, a lawyer in Ridgewood, said she travels through Leonia every day to get to her job. She claimed the new rules have "unconsciously impinged" on commuters' ability to travel on the public roads.

Rosa filed her complaint in Bergen County Superior Court, seeking to overturn Leonia's ordinance and reopen the streets to all traffic.

More

Posted on: 2/2 9:59
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Piggy backing off this post, people racing to the Holland Tunnel are putting pedestrian at risk, especially on the North-South running streets in the downtown area, like Erie (as mentioned) and Jersey Ave. Stand outside of Key Foods or Dames Coffee shop on the weekend and you'll witness MANY close calls--specifically at the intersection of Jersey and 3rd--as drivers race down the street to shave a few minutes off their drive. I'm surprised there is not an effort to get a stop sign at that specific intersection.

Posted on: 1/26 17:14
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Isn't it automatically enforced via EZ Pass?

Posted on: 1/26 15:34
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

... this is not really going to be enforced in any real way. This was done mainly so GPS like Waze or Google will now reroute people around the neighborhoods since the software now sees the streets as closed.


Exactly why we also should try it!

Posted on: 1/26 11:05
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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I used to work in Leonia Middle School, and if there was traffic going to the bridge it was bad in Leonia. If there was a stalled car or an accident on the Cross Bronx, it was a complete nightmare. The teachers and school buses could not get to the schools. First period was a wash.

That was 16 years ago, so I'm sure it's much worse now.

Now sure what the answer is, but the problem is real.

Posted on: 1/26 10:08
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Pssst..don't tell Yvonne, but the work of the Anti-Dentites is already in the works as rumor has it that they are going to turn Leonia's Lemoine Avenue into a pedestrian plaza.




Posted on: 1/24 12:09
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
What if your dentist is in Leonia? Or a lawyer? They will be deciding on a case-by-case basis if they should ticket you? This thing makes no sense.


I think I saw this on WPIX news the other day, but given the size of the Leonia police dept, and the many grey areas already mentioned, this is not really going to be enforced in any real way. This was done mainly so GPS like Waze or Google will now reroute people around the neighborhoods since the software now sees the streets as closed.

Posted on: 1/23 14:14
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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What if your dentist is in Leonia? Or a lawyer? They will be deciding on a case-by-case basis if they should ticket you? This thing makes no sense.

Posted on: 1/23 13:59
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

caj11 wrote:
How do they enforce this anyway?

Do they stop the cars, ask to see the license so they can see where the driver lives, and then ask, why are you here?

Then, who's to say the driver will tell the truth anyway?


The Leonia thing? They mentioned a yellow sticker or similar that locals would get that would easily identify them to traffic cops.

Posted on: 1/23 13:55
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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How do they enforce this anyway?

Do they stop the cars, ask to see the license so they can see where the driver lives, and then ask, why are you here?

Then, who's to say the driver will tell the truth anyway?

Posted on: 1/23 12:35
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Does EZ Pass have any type of enforcement like the one Brewster mentioned that anyone knows of? Just curious if something like that has ever been implemented.

Posted on: 1/23 12:15
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

I_heart_JC wrote:
drivers can simply remove their EZ pass after going through the 14C toll, and replace it before going through the Holland.


You don't understand, if they go through 14 C but don't use the 12th st ramp and get read there, then they get the penalty. They could also choose to pay cash at either toll, but that's a time penalty.

Robin is correct it could be done entirely by plate cams, but it seemed a bigger ask, that has got to need more overhead and bandwidth, and have a higher error rate. Or maybe the tech is now past those concerns. Plate cams and face recog still seem like SF to me!

Posted on: 1/22 23:26
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Both Ezpass and toll booths have already been made redundant by number plate recognition technology.

Just drive on the road and the toll is charged to your account, is done on roads in England.

Robin.

Posted on: 1/22 22:41

Edited by tern on 2018/1/22 22:58:18
Edited by tern on 2018/1/22 23:02:10
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

jc_dweller wrote:
Am I understanding this correctly:
Move 14C tolls to the CC drive exit.
Add a new toll on the turnpike east of CC Drive (say, 14D)
Anyone who enters HT within x minutes of exiting 14A, B, or C gets charged (significantly) more than the person who goes from 14D to HT?

If so, I like it.
Only thing I don't like is TPK would get that $ rather than JC.


No moving of tolls, just new "express lane" type readers past the Columbus exit that catch the tags as they pass so they know when the cars get to the HT who used the 12th st ramp and not LSP or Columbus.


drivers can simply remove their EZ pass after going through the 14C toll, and replace it before going through the Holland.

Posted on: 1/22 22:07
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

jc_dweller wrote:
Am I understanding this correctly:
Move 14C tolls to the CC drive exit.
Add a new toll on the turnpike east of CC Drive (say, 14D)
Anyone who enters HT within x minutes of exiting 14A, B, or C gets charged (significantly) more than the person who goes from 14D to HT?

If so, I like it.
Only thing I don't like is TPK would get that $ rather than JC.


No moving of tolls, just new "express lane" type readers past the Columbus exit that catch the tags as they pass so they know when the cars get to the HT who used the 12th st ramp and not LSP or Columbus.

Who gets the money if it's a surcharge should be negotiable, I wouldn't grudge the TPK some of it for implementing and administering it. But I would make that charge so high no one would consider it just another commuting cost, so there would be no huge pot of money. The moral hazard is politicians who see a new revenue source to be extracted from those willing to pay an affordable surcharge.

Do they really enforce the "no turns" during rush? I stay away from there in the AM at all costs. I've seen plenty of people making the right into the tunnel from the left "through traffic" lane on Marin with the PA cops just sitting there. I honestly can't recall ever seeing a PA cop move a muscle to enforce traffic rules like gridlock and turns.

Posted on: 1/22 18:37
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
I've said this before, all you'd need to do to eliminate much of the through traffic is create a 1 hr EZ pass lockout or big surcharge at the Holland for anyone exiting the TPK at exits 14 A, B or C before the 12th st ramp. They'd need to put pass readers past the Columbus ramp, but the rest is software. Yes, cash payers can avoid it, but that brings it's own time penalty.

The tag system would never work here, our cops don't do traffic enforcement, apparently it's beneath them.


Am I understanding this correctly:
Move 14C tolls to the CC drive exit.
Add a new toll on the turnpike east of CC Drive (say, 14D)
Anyone who enters HT within x minutes of exiting 14A, B, or C gets charged (significantly) more than the person who goes from 14D to HT?

If so, I like it.
Only thing I don't like is TPK would get that $ rather than JC.

Posted on: 1/22 16:16
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Washington to 14th or 18th; west to Manila; south to 13th. Also: Monmouth to Coles to 16th to Jersey to 14th. Unless you are going to restrict the TPK cut through traffic as proposed below (which will not happen), then this will never get better. The only way to kill off the cut through traffic is to eliminate the ability to get onto 13th street from the south.

It will never happen. I'm just saying there is a way it could.

And frankly - I'm not sure we need to prioritize local access into the tunnel during rush hour. There is an abundance of transit options to get into the city. Should we orient our traffic patterns (and safety) for the few who either can't (or won't) avail themselves of them?

Posted on: 1/22 15:57
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
Not Marin.


No, of course not. That's the only street from which you can turn onto the tunnel approach. How else would locals be able to get to the Holland tunnel??

Posted on: 1/22 15:34
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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People using the turnpike use downtown streets as a shortcut to get to the tunnel. If you stopped that, a great deal of downtown traffic would disappear.

Posted on: 1/22 15:26
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Not Marin.

Posted on: 1/22 14:53
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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wrensdad wrote:
Don't allow turns onto 12th street during rush hours. That would stop the through traffic, but locals can't drive to the Holland. Not much better.


This is already being done. Traffic heading North on Erie is forbidden from turning onto 12th Street during the morning rush hour. The same is true of other intersections.

Posted on: 1/22 14:52
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
I've said this before, all you'd need to do to eliminate much of the through traffic is create a 1 hr EZ pass lockout or big surcharge at the Holland for anyone exiting the TPK at exits 14 A, B or C before the 12th st ramp. They'd need to put pass readers past the Columbus ramp, but the rest is software. Yes, cash payers can avoid it, but that brings it's own time penalty.

The tag system would never work here, our cops don't do traffic enforcement, apparently it's beneath them.


I've said the same thing, for years. It's a pretty simple, yet elegant solution.

Posted on: 1/22 14:39
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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brewster I like it. Stops the through traffic very nicely.

But it requires support from EZ Pass and the state. Possible, but the Fulup / Murphy feud won't help.

Posted on: 1/22 12:17
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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I've said this before, all you'd need to do to eliminate much of the through traffic is create a 1 hr EZ pass lockout or big surcharge at the Holland for anyone exiting the TPK at exits 14 A, B or C before the 12th st ramp. They'd need to put pass readers past the Columbus ramp, but the rest is software. Yes, cash payers can avoid it, but that brings it's own time penalty.

The tag system would never work here, our cops don't do traffic enforcement, apparently it's beneath them.

Posted on: 1/22 11:59
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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JPhurst wrote:
Not sure how state law works on this but I'm not sure a town can restrict access like that. I don't remember the specifics but I recall Hoboken trying this and backing down in the face of opposition.


I'm not a legal beagle, but my understanding is that it is possible for Leonia as they rightly claimed it was a public safety hazard - creating a sufficient bottleneck for fire, emt, and police travel.

Posted on: 1/22 11:04
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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There's Tons of traffic jumps off 78 at Columbus ave, down Christopher Columbus, to Marin (and Erie to a lesser degree). No benefit to JC. Actually a cost due to traffic police and road wear.

The downside is that anyone driving into JC for business now has a problem. This includes the employees and anyone attending one off meetings. This isn't acceptable.

Alternatives?

Don't allow turns onto 12th street during rush hours. That would stop the through traffic, but locals can't drive to the Holland. Not much better.

A ban on through traffic. That's the real problem. We want people to come to JC. Even during rush hours. But only if they are coming to JC and not using JC just to cut in line at the tunnel.
How to enforce? Add cameras on the 78 CC exit, and the entrances to the tunnel. We might need to add one at the 78 LSP exit too.

Of course there will be legal challenges.....

Posted on: 1/22 11:01
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Re: Is Downtown JC next? Out-Of-Town Drivers Banned From Using Leonia As Shortcut
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Quote:

JPhurst wrote:
Not sure how state law works on this but I'm not sure a town can restrict access like that. I don't remember the specifics but I recall Hoboken trying this and backing down in the face of opposition.

I don't think anyone knows for certain whether it's legal. That would need to be hashed out in the courts.

I'm also certain there will be nothing like this in DTJC.

Posted on: 1/22 10:01
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