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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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World Trade Center’s $4 billion Oculus springs leak as water drips on commuters' heads

Friday, May 5, 2017, 3:19 PM

It seems $4 billion isn’t enough for a good roof.

The World Trade Center’s Oculus transit hub sprung a leak during Friday’s drenching rain storm.

Photos posted on social media show pools of water on the white marble floor of the $4 billion transportation center and shopping mall.

The leak sent streams of commuters rushing toward the exits.

The Port Authority, which controls the transit hub, did not immediately return a request for comment.

The bird-like structure, designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava, opened in March 2016 after years of delays and cost overruns.

The transportation hub was initially slated to cost $2 billion.


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/w ... mmuters-article-1.3140183

Posted on: 2017/5/5 20:36
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dcatalana2001 wrote:
With all the growth in this area, I am really not sure why they are not building more infrastructure to support it. I wish the city would think ahead and use budget wisely! Public transportation is crucial for all of us, especially as JC continues to grow.


The people who sign off on new developments (JC) are entirely different from the people in charge of public transport infrastructure (Port Authority and New Jersey Transit).

Both groups only seem concerned with the short term, and don't appear to care about the other. The Path will probably be nightmarishly overcrowded once all the JSQ developments are completed. Though, in fairness, NYC appears to be run in a similar way.

Posted on: 2017/4/12 0:33
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dcatalana2001 wrote:
With all the growth in this area, I am really not sure why they are not building more infrastructure to support it. I wish the city would think ahead and use budget wisely! Public transportation is crucial for all of us, especially as JC continues to grow.


Expense: rail alone costs $billions. Look at the estimated cost just to extend the PATH to EWR over an existing right of way. Then the system has to be subsidized since fares won't cover the operation expenses.


Posted on: 2017/4/11 19:17
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With all the growth in this area, I am really not sure why they are not building more infrastructure to support it. I wish the city would think ahead and use budget wisely! Public transportation is crucial for all of us, especially as JC continues to grow.

Posted on: 2017/4/11 18:34
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Bahalofsky wrote:
Lengthening station platforms is great,
How about safety measures to prevent train derailment?

That's the main thing on mind, with nj transit and Amtrak , only a matter of time before it happens to path trains too


Meh, I don't care - statistically, the trains are much safer than driving.

Posted on: 2017/4/11 3:01
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Lengthening station platforms is great,
How about safety measures to prevent train derailment?

That's the main thing on mind, with nj transit and Amtrak , only a matter of time before it happens to path trains too

Posted on: 2017/4/11 2:04
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heights wrote:
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Frank_M wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


I don’t mind standing, but unlike the laborers and service workers I ride with, I sit on my cracker-butt most of the day and get paid more for it.

So you get paid more huh. Do you normally reveal your salary to strangers on the train ? And what makes you think they make less than you ? You'd be surprised at what people make based on their looks.


lulwut

Posted on: 2017/4/7 20:51
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Frank_M wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


I don’t mind standing, but unlike the laborers and service workers I ride with, I sit on my cracker-butt most of the day and get paid more for it.

So you get paid more huh. Do you normally reveal your salary to strangers on the train ? And what makes you think they make less than you ? You'd be surprised at what people make based on their looks.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 20:44
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JcDevil wrote:
Open gangway cars can increase capacity by 10% and then, with said open gangway cars, you can probably add an extra train car, maybe even two. If you can just walk into the next car, trains can be longer than the stations.


Agree with the first half, though I'm not sure open gangway would survive the S curve heading into Christopher from Newport.

On the second half, people are way too stupid to be able to handle moving from one car to another to exit.


That's the point of open gangway cars. Its basically just one giant car. They can be enginnered to handle any curve the current trains handle.

Look at this video from Toronto:

https://youtu.be/8wwUY3hFNwo

Posted on: 2017/4/7 18:27
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JcDevil wrote:
Open gangway cars can increase capacity by 10% and then, with said open gangway cars, you can probably add an extra train car, maybe even two. If you can just walk into the next car, trains can be longer than the stations.


Agree with the first half, though I'm not sure open gangway would survive the S curve heading into Christopher from Newport.

On the second half, people are way too stupid to be able to handle moving from one car to another to exit.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 18:21
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Open gangway cars can increase capacity by 10% and then, with said open gangway cars, you can probably add an extra train car, maybe even two. If you can just walk into the next car, trains can be longer than the stations.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 18:14
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


I don’t mind standing, but unlike the laborers and service workers I ride with, I sit on my cracker-butt most of the day and get paid more for it.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 16:03
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


PATH should look at this, but be careful what you wish for... increasing the number of people in a car can have the opposite to intended effect. With more passengers “loading and dwell” times increase, causing trains to stop longer at stations. This can ripple through the entire system limiting overall train movement, resulting in a net decrease in passenger capacity.

It would be reassuring to know that PATH officials have already carefully considered all this. I don't any see any harm from making such information available if they have. One downside might be developers can't push the canard that JC will remain easily “accessible” to NYC during rush hour. But since money talks, I'm not expecting we will learn anything from the PA about this any time soon.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 14:51
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I agree with both ideas - eliminating seats in at least some cars, and more grab bars throughout the car. I dread being that guy standing in the middle with nothing to hold onto, swaying like a drunken sailor.

Posted on: 2017/4/7 12:55
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bodhipooh wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


This is an idea that I think is worthy of consideration. But, not sure why you present it as a binary choice. The PATH could set up trains that incorporate cars of different types. SRO cars could be identified by painting them with a different external color, or by some sort of special decal on the window. One or two such cars could help alleviate overcrowding. Instead of straps hanging from the roof, they could outfit the cars with horizontal bars placed in the middle of the car, making it easier for the vertically challenged to be able to ride safely.


Makes sense to me. And I never understood why the horizontal bars did not extend across the entire car. I always stay in the middle of the car just to make sure I am near them.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 21:33
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.


This is an idea that I think is worthy of consideration. But, not sure why you present it as a binary choice. The PATH could set up trains that incorporate cars of different types. SRO cars could be identified by painting them with a different external color, or by some sort of special decal on the window. One or two such cars could help alleviate overcrowding. Instead of straps hanging from the roof, they could outfit the cars with horizontal bars placed in the middle of the car, making it easier for the vertically challenged to be able to ride safely.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 21:28
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Also, this will not be popular but I would be in favor of removing seats from the subway cars. Not an ideal situation but I'd rather stand on the PATH than wait on the platform. (You could still keep a few priority seats available for the truly disabled).

Strap hangers across the entire car would help too.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 20:27
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JCishome wrote:
Here's a question/thought: I rode from Grove-33rd yesterday (not my usual route) and noted that very few people got off the train at Christopher, 9th, 14th or 23rd. Would it increase capacity to have "express" trains that skipped those stations and went direct to 33rd? This is a legit question, so there's no need to tell me what a dumbass I am.


Besides the one track issue, I think many people are getting off at 33rd now due to the NJTransit issues.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 20:18
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JCishome wrote:
Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Monthly for Paulus Hook to 39th is $275. WTC is $230.

That's still double the cost of the PATH. And again, it's convenient -- if you live in Paulus Hook, and work in the Financial District. If you live in The Village and work in midtown? Not so much.


JCishome is talking about the Liberty Landing Ferry service. The monthly cost is $220. Of course, it is only convenient if you live in Paulus Hook, and if you work downtown.

But, I definitely prefer Liberty Landing Ferry over NY Waterway when going to downtown Manhattan, as they are much more accommodating with regards to their bike policy (no extra charge) and they also allow dogs to come on board. That's two huge pluses (to me) over NY Waterway.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 20:05
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"Express" trains only work if there is another track or mechanism that allows them to bypass slower trains ahead of them. PATH doesn't have such an option.


Pre 9/11, there was rush hour express train of sorts Newark to WTC. It wouldn't take on additional passengers at the stations btw Newark and WTC. It didn't cut travel time of course.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 19:07
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"Express" trains only work if there is another track or mechanism that allows them to bypass slower trains ahead of them. PATH doesn't have such an option.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 18:42
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Here's a question/thought: I rode from Grove-33rd yesterday (not my usual route) and noted that very few people got off the train at Christopher, 9th, 14th or 23rd. Would it increase capacity to have "express" trains that skipped those stations and went direct to 33rd? This is a legit question, so there's no need to tell me what a dumbass I am.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 18:29
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JCishome wrote:
Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Monthly for Paulus Hook to 39th is $275. WTC is $230.

That's still double the cost of the PATH. And again, it's convenient -- if you live in Paulus Hook, and work in the Financial District. If you live in The Village and work in midtown? Not so much.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 17:39
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Dolomiti wrote:
Please, spare us the hysterics.

Here's what that PA spokesman was reported to say at that 2015 Hoboken meeting: “According to Coleman, the severity of the overcrowding at the Journal Square PATH station in particular was such that it had become a potential public safety problem...,”

Uh huh

That was in 2015, when he was defending a change to the schedule, which allocated fewer rush hour trains from the HOB-33rd line, to the JSQ-33rd line. (The trains went from every 6 minutes to every 7 minutes in Hoboken, so of course Hobokenites freaked out.) Oddly enough, we haven't heard about "dangerous" conditions at JSQ since then, despite ridership increasing.

Meanwhile, the new signals are in progress, and will be coming on line.


Quote:
And here's what the PA Chairman, John Degnan, himself says (from the WSJ June 5th, 2016): “Port Authority Chairman John Degnan said Jersey City shouldn’t approve new developments along the PATH’s route without making sure the system can handle the expected growth in riders. 'It’s irresponsible for a city to allow indiscriminate growth that’s going to tax public infrastructure beyond its capability,' Mr. Degnan said.”

Uh huh

Fulop is suing the PA for $200 million. It's not that surprising that they are slagging each other, pointing fingers and so forth.

Meanwhile, we all know Fulop shoots his mouth off, and attacks his political enemies in public; and Degnan is the guy who wanted to stop PATH service between 1AM and 5AM, ostensibly to cut costs. By the way, PATH loses money, PA hates it, most of Trenton hates it, did I mention?


Quote:
Serious injuries resulting from over-crowding on narrow PATH station platforms are foreseeable and avoidable.

Oh?

It is extraordinarily unlikely that the PATH system is the single most crowded commuter train system in the US, let alone the world. So let's see some actual statistics where overcrowded platforms resulted in "serious injuries."


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The kind of problem any reasonably competent transit agency should anticipate and prevent.

How?

Should they cut service between 1AM and 5AM? Save some money, open up a maintenance window? That went over like a lead balloon.

Can the PA single-handedly build a new tunnel? Nope. That will cost billions, will require federal funding, will require new stations, will require NY and NJ govs to sign off -- and since you missed it, NJ's current governor killed the previous attempt (ARC), took some of the PA funds dedicated to the ARC and spent it on other projects (like the Pulaski Skyway), thus burning any ties he had to Congress on infrastructure for years.

Can they increase train frequency by improving the signals? Yup. That's already in progress.

Can the PA command a halt to development in Newark, Harrison, Jersey City and Hoboken? lol

The only thing I've heard that sounds feasible is open gangway cars (preferably with wider entrances). IMO that's a good option, and would increase capacity by perhaps 10%. It will also require time and money to design, prototype, test, build and roll out the new cars. They'd also have to replace a fleet of relatively new cars.

Is there some obvious fix that you know about, that hasn't occurred to anyone else? I hear a lot of complaints and yet another portent of doom, but nothing constructive. So, what should the PA be doing differently?

Posted on: 2017/4/6 17:26
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.


Exactly. If it is restored the walk to the ferry is maybe 2 extra minutes from the PATH station at Newport.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 16:15
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Meanwhile, PATH is the red-headed stepchild of PA. Tolls, airports and rental of facilities make money; PATH loses money. No one wanted it in the first place. It's stunning that PA puts any resources into the PATH system.


The only reason the PA runs the PATH: it was part of a deal to allow them to build the original WTC. In order to tear down the old H&M railroad office buildings and construct the towers, the PA had to take over the bankrupt H&M railroad.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 15:10
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Just a point of clarification on this: The Warren Street ferry is $5.50/trip if you buy a pack of 10, and I think the monthly fare is $220 - so if you rode it more than 20 days/month the cost would be lower than that. At that pricing, it's not a bad deal to get out of the PATH nightmare.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 14:36
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Dolomiti wrote:
Please, spare us the hysterics.


Yes, please spare us.... Unfortunately, the only thing hysterical is denying the serious PATH overcrowding that won't be fixed anytime soon. But you don't need to take my word for it, it's obvious to just about everyone, including the PA spokesman, PA Chairman and JC Mayor, all on the public record acknowledging the problem.

Here's what that PA spokesman was reported to say at that 2015 Hoboken meeting: “According to Coleman, the severity of the overcrowding at the Journal Square PATH station in particular was such that it had become a potential public safety problem...,”

And here's what the PA Chairman, John Degnan, himself says (from the WSJ June 5th, 2016): “Port Authority Chairman John Degnan said Jersey City shouldn’t approve new developments along the PATH’s route without making sure the system can handle the expected growth in riders. 'It’s irresponsible for a city to allow indiscriminate growth that’s going to tax public infrastructure beyond its capability,' Mr. Degnan said.”

JC Mayor Steve Fulop concurred a serious problem exists and blamed inadequate planning by the PA. Here's what Fulop said in that same WSJ article: “Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop faulted the Port Authority, which is jointly controlled by New Jersey and New York governors, for failing to properly plan. 'At the end of the day it’s Port Authority’s responsibility,' Mr. Fulop said. 'They should stop putting blame elsewhere. Every surrounding municipality has grown.' ”

Serious injuries resulting from over-crowding on narrow PATH station platforms are foreseeable and avoidable. The kind of problem any reasonably competent transit agency should anticipate and prevent. Consequently, I fully expect to see PA Police implementing access restrictions during rush hour in the near future. They certainly know how – they done it many times in the past, and do it today as needed.

But what I really want to know is where are the credible detailed projections, plans, timelines and $$'s from all the responsible parties to fix this mess....? There's nothing hysterical about it, it's a serious problem for residents of Jersey City and all the towns serviced by PATH.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 14:21
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.


On this, we agree... we do have ferry service. In fact, there are five ferry terminals from which people could hop onto a ferry: three are downtown, one is in LSP, and the other is in Port Liberté. But, I should note, Newport lost its ferry terminal after Sandy, and NY Waterway chose not to bring it back.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 4:07
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Hamparkvet wrote:
The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Did I miss something? Ferries still run. They cost $8 per ride, because they're privately operated.

You also have to get to them. That's easy for people in Newport and Paulus Hook; difficult for everyone else downtown; effectively worthless for the rest of JC.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 2:43
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