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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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terrencemcd wrote:
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ecoindie wrote:
@Terrence McDonald, what is the Councilwoman's response to not enforcing her own ordinance and passing the buck to businesses?


The councilwoman told business owners last week that she wants and has asked for more enforcement. She said it's the admin that has said on-duty officers are needed elsewhere.


So the closest precinct to DTJC is sending officers to other areas of JC?


No. East District has been often running at minimum staffing levels (which doesn't provide for consistent visible presence. With retirements and new officers coming out of academy, they go to South & West Districts

Posted on: 3/7 14:23
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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terrencemcd wrote:
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ecoindie wrote:
@Terrence McDonald, what is the Councilwoman's response to not enforcing her own ordinance and passing the buck to businesses?


The councilwoman told business owners last week that she wants and has asked for more enforcement. She said it's the admin that has said on-duty officers are needed elsewhere.


So the closest precinct to DTJC is sending officers to other areas of JC?

Posted on: 3/7 13:51
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Bars are responsible for people they serve alcohol to and then go on to show anti-social behavior? Really?

Are doctors or pharmacies responsible for the individuals who voluntarily overdose? Where is this doctor/pharmacy tax?

An EXTRA tax to have cops do their job??? I didn't know crime could only be reported 9-5. Please don't tell criminals.

Is there an extra fire tax for fires which happen at midnight?

How stupid is this line of thinking.....

Posted on: 3/7 13:49
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Our ex-mayor Healy will be pissed if anyone restricts his bar from operating when he wants or imposes some sort of conditions that might effect his cash flow ... if anything is needed it is CCTV cameras in the area, to help control anti-social behavior and make those accountable for damage


WTF are you even talking about? Healy's has nothing to do with the pedestrian plaza and the mayor doesn't own the bar, his sons do.

Posted on: 3/7 13:18
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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ecoindie wrote:
@Terrence McDonald, what is the Councilwoman's response to not enforcing her own ordinance and passing the buck to businesses?


The councilwoman told business owners last week that she wants and has asked for more enforcement. She said it's the admin that has said on-duty officers are needed elsewhere.

Posted on: 3/7 12:53
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Pedestrian Plaza Ordinance:
http://jerseycitynj.gov/uploadedFiles ... nance_First%20Reading.pdf

The ordiance holds the City of Jersey City responsible, not the business owners. Maybe Candice should read her own ordinance. This is Public Safety's reponsibility to enforce.

@Terrence McDonald, what is the Councilwoman's response to not enforcing her own ordinance and passing the buck to businesses?

Posted on: 3/7 11:37
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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I agree, DWI enforcement is always important. And I love that downtown public transportation and Uber has cut down on it.

I'm all for bars all over town and people enjoying them, in fact I don't even think there should be curfew, but at the same time people need to be responsible for themselves. This accepted culture of binge drinking is really sad, and seeing 30 year olds barefoot and puking at midnight is ridiculous. If the city needs money, start writing tickets.

Posted on: 3/7 11:29
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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elsquid wrote:
DWI is definitely still a problem everywhere, and you do see it with people leaving the Plaza late at night.

But one counterweight to that is, at least when you set up nightlife right next to the PATH, a big taxi stand, etc., you enable many more people to avoid driving to and from bars in the first place. Same with little bars and restos scattered through walkable neighborhoods, as I previously mentioned.

The suburban model of putting big bars on the outskirts of town, near the highway ramp, surrounded by parking lots, in the name of avoiding rowdiness and keeping neighborhoods quiet, has helped kill thousands of people via DWI.


I completely agree with you about the great access to public transit/car services. However, DWI enforcement needs to be stepped up and targeting in this area on Thu-Sat nights at the very least. There's ample evidence that drunk driving has gone up in this concentrated area.

Posted on: 3/7 11:18
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Why are we blaming the business? Where is the personal responsibility? An adult should be able to to drink without cops having to babysitting. If they get rowdy, or publicly drunk to the point vomiting all over the plaza they should get fined. Or put in the drunk tank and taught a lesson.
It's disgusting that adults can't handle the combination of being outside and drinking to the point of having to close the entire plaza.

Posted on: 3/7 11:13
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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DWI is definitely still a problem everywhere, and you do see it with people leaving the Plaza late at night.

But one counterweight to that is, at least when you set up nightlife right next to the PATH, a big taxi stand, etc., you enable many more people to avoid driving to and from bars in the first place. Same with little bars and restos scattered through walkable neighborhoods, as I previously mentioned.

The suburban model of putting big bars on the outskirts of town, near the highway ramp, surrounded by parking lots, in the name of avoiding rowdiness and keeping neighborhoods quiet, has helped kill thousands of people via DWI.

Posted on: 3/7 11:10
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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They wanted Hoboken, they got Hoboken.
Cant wait until the first "'con" bar crawl to pop up downtown. ha!

Posted on: 3/7 10:15
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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I hear you on neighborhood noise and rowdy drunks, but taking bars, or restaurants that serve booze, out of neighborhoods is not the answer (though more regulation or enforcement might be).

Neighborhoods need to be "dotted" with all the common kinds of small retail businesses, from pizzerias to bodegas to dry-cleaners to, yes, neighborhood bars. Some concentrations of larger-scale businesses in "districts" like the Plaza is OK too, but if that's all there is, then people will be encouraged to own cars and drive every time they leave their houses, leading to more car crashes, pollution, congestion, parking battles, etc. -- even, ironically, more DWI.

It's vital to keep each neighborhood somewhat self-sustaining, so people can walk and bike short distances at least some of the time, even when they go out for a beer and a burger.

Posted on: 3/7 10:15

Edited by elsquid on 2017/3/7 10:32:20
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Yes make all SID businesses pay for the problems being caused by a handful of bars that everyone knows are the source of trouble. Makes a lot of sense. Kind of like having the US taxpayer pay for the problems caused by a handful of banks in 2008. JC needs to figure out a way to make the problem bars solve/pay for this issue. How about if you are open past 11PM you're in the club that has to pay to fix the issue.

The pedestrian plaza is an asset to DTJC until the hours of 12-3AM. That's when the drunks take over and it becomes a zoo.

JC code has very little protection for residents who like to keep normal hours. Restaurants (which are really bars) are permitted in places you'd never expect and if you look around DTJC you see lots of places being converted to bars. Anyplace with a liquor license open past 11PM will lead to noise issues, drunks, etc. Instead of allowing them to dot the entire downtown, JC should come up with one area where late night establishments are allowed. That way people know it and if they chose to live close by they know what they are getting into.

I'd love to know if JC has even once enforced the noise ordinance that Rich Boggiano made law last year???

Posted on: 3/7 9:02
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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ecoindie wrote:
It doesn't answer why even Off Duty cops are necessary. Why can't on-duty cops from the East Precinct monitor the Path Station and Plaza. It's unreasonably to expect businesses to pay extra for services that our taxes pay for and should be a given.


Exactly! There's no reason the existing cops can't police that area.


Taxes haven't got anything to do with it ... We all pay taxes and some may want a cop at HP or VVP ! There are liquor licensing laws in place that are simply being ignored ... if we the community demanded it and were vocal, then the cops would pull their fingers out and start issuing fines as would cityhall officials

Posted on: 3/6 17:53
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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ecoindie wrote:
It doesn't answer why even Off Duty cops are necessary. Why can't on-duty cops from the East Precinct monitor the Path Station and Plaza. It's unreasonably to expect businesses to pay extra for services that our taxes pay for and should be a given.


Exactly! There's no reason the existing cops can't police that area.

Posted on: 3/6 17:40
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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There are some valid points and good suggestions.

1. Two cops in full uniform FOOT PATROLLING in the plaza during those nights of high consumption and anti-social behavior.

2. Pubs and Bars should be billed for the police presence.

3. Pubs and Bars issued with infringements for serving or failing to monitor intoxicated patrons.

4. Pubs and Bars issued with infringements for allowing intoxicated patrons to remain on their premises or allowing them in.

5. Pubs and Bars billed for cityhall clean up crews (over-time rates) the next morning.

Once Pubs and Bars are made accountable (as per ordinances / laws already in place) the better the area will be ... unfortunately when you have off-duty cops working for the same pubs and bars like in Hoboken, no fines will ever be written ... CCTV cameras would sort all that out, but I'm betting the cops will covertly disagree with that solution as it could highlight poor policing of the area !

Posted on: 3/6 17:40
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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GrovePath wrote:
Any cost should be paid by the bars on the plaza -- not by other businesses along Newark Ave or in the SID.

Really they should just end the closed pedestrian plaza since it has proven to create a space for loud rowdy bar-goers to hang outside.


You must be fun at parties.

Posted on: 3/6 17:34
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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"The Wild West"?
Really?
"The Wild West"?
LOL!!
Are the crazy bicyclist speeding through the plaza the wild stallions in this scenario?
They're the ones to worry about, not some drunks spending much needed $$$ into the local economy..
Geesh!



Posted on: 3/6 17:17
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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I hate to pull the stupid, "I've been living here for blah blah blah" card, but I'll do it anyway...

I've been living here for blah blah blah years and....

the problems on the summer weekends are clear as day. It's a handful of bars that cater to younger out of town kids that get sloppy drunk and make a mess of the place because they don't know any better.

Talde and Porta are the problem on Friday and Saturday. Talde has been so bad with their Thursday-Saturdays that Keyhole has been closing early to avoid the spillover when Talde kicks them out at 1:45, an hour earlier than everybody else, which then makes all these drunks everybody else's problem. This kids scream in the street. They sneak glasses outside and smash them on the curb. They loudly take group pictures around and on top of parked cars. They fight, they puke, they get in petty arguments. Then when it's all over, they get in their cars and drive home drunk. Look at Erie St on a Sunday morning. 100% devoid of cars. They all leave at 3 or 4am after they've littered the area.

One cop walking up and down the plaza would solve most of this. I mean, what else are the cops here for if not to deal with quality of life issues like this for residents? It's always astonishing to me to see a squad car pull up to the plaza with its lights on. Why wasn't it just parked there the whole time?

As for the private security or over-time off-duty cop paid for by the restaurants... what? Why the hell should LITM have to pay extra for Porta's problem?

Posted on: 3/6 17:15
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Our ex-mayor Healy will be pissed if anyone restricts his bar from operating when he wants or imposes some sort of conditions that might effect his cash flow ... if anything is needed it is CCTV cameras in the area, to help control anti-social behavior and make those accountable for damage

Posted on: 3/6 17:04
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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GrovePath wrote:
Any cost should be paid by the bars on the plaza -- not by other businesses along Newark Ave or in the SID.

Really they should just end this!

End what, exactly?

The pedestrian plaza didn't cause this behavior, it's the liquor licenses. Hoboken experiences the same thing, all over town, on the weekends.

Posted on: 3/6 16:34
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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Any cost should be paid by the bars on the plaza -- not by other businesses along Newark Ave or in the SID.

Really they should just end the closed pedestrian plaza since it has proven to create a space for loud rowdy bar-goers to hang outside.

Posted on: 3/6 16:29

Edited by GrovePath on 2017/3/6 16:47:20
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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TheBigGuy wrote:
So what is up with the reporter's Osborne Quote??

Osborne said it's up to the SID to accept her idea or not -- "this is y'all's voluntary action," she told them at a City Hall meeting last week




That's what she said.


And she's originally from Georgia. She was being informal, otherwise she would have used the plural possessive "all y'all's."

Posted on: 3/6 16:26
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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ecoindie wrote:
There should always be a cop by the Path Station. No exceptions. Any excuse, is unjustifiable.

...unless the PATH itself is patrolled by PAPD, and there is essentially no crime at the Grove Street Station most of the time.


Quote:
Also, it was Candice's idea for the pedestrian plaza. So, is she telling people... "hey I put this here... but you got to pay for security." Thank goodness, there is an election in November.

She was one of many people who implemented it -- in no small part because constituents asked for it, and enjoy it.

Those businesses also profit from it, so it is not that outrageous to ask them to chip in.

The alternative is to pay for it out of the city's budget. That can make sense (after all, that is what taxes are for), but it is also to a degree asking people from all over JC to pay more to protect one downtown block. I don't see how that is inherently more fair than asking the businesses that benefit from the pedestrian plaza to chip in a little extra.

Posted on: 3/6 16:23
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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third_street_hats wrote:
Gotcha. I was having trouble parsing that with Two Boots complaining about $200/yr.

Does that mean there are roughly 300 businesses in the HDSID and they would all have to contribute to this fund even if they're all the way down at Newark and 3rd or York and Grove and not open during these hours?


I may have to revise to make more clear. The entire SID would pay, so each of its ~300 businesses would see an additional $200 cost to pay for the roughly $60,000 annual cost for the two cops.

Posted on: 3/6 16:21
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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12345 wrote:
The corrupt OFF DUTY JCPD program that is under FBI Investigation, this is what councilperson Osborne is promoting, the $60.00 per hour OVER PRICED rent a cop?
http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36712

Hire $15.00 per hour Security Guards without guns. That is what is really needed; anything more is a WASTE.

I think you're a bit confused.

The FBI investigation is not about the City's program. It's about a bunch of officers that ran their own (unauthorized) security service, and tried to use it to shake down some construction projects.

The problem with cheapo security guards is that they can't actually enforce laws. They also don't have the same training as a real officer. You get what you pay for.

Posted on: 3/6 16:17
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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terrencemcd wrote:

Should have been "nearly $2,500," so I've changed to that.

The SID is assuming two officers three days a week, working about 6 hours each at $65 an hour. That's $2,340 for the week. They think 26 weeks tops.


Gotcha. I was having trouble parsing that with Two Boots complaining about $200/yr.

Does that mean there are roughly 300 businesses in the HDSID and they would all have to contribute to this fund even if they're all the way down at Newark and 3rd or York and Grove and not open during these hours?

Posted on: 3/6 16:16
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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There should always be a cop by the Path Station. No exceptions. Any excuse, is unjustifiable.

Also, it was Candice's idea for the pedestrian plaza. So, is she telling people... "hey I put this here... but you got to pay for security." Thank goodness, there is an election in November.

Posted on: 3/6 16:15
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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TheBigGuy wrote:
So what is up with the reporter's Osborne Quote??

Osborne said it's up to the SID to accept her idea or not -- "this is y'all's voluntary action," she told them at a City Hall meeting last week




That's what she said.

Posted on: 3/6 16:09
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Re: Jersey City mulls changes to pedestrian plaza to address rowdy bar-goers
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So what is up with the reporter's Osborne Quote??

Osborne said it's up to the SID to accept her idea or not -- "this is y'all's voluntary action," she told them at a City Hall meeting last week



Posted on: 3/6 16:06
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