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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
 
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Does anyone genuinely believe Schundler lost because of his record in JC? My recollection is that his record in JC was good, but his gov campaign was a bit of a train wreck.
Posted on: 2015/7/8 16:09
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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The car simile fails because of the nature of the tax system. What was fair in 88 after the last reval has progressively become unfair, it shouldn't matter when you got on the merry-go-round. The residents who have been here the longest have benefitted the most, no I don't pity their desire to have their cake and eat it too, ie: own a high value property but not pay the taxes they should. Anyone asset rich and cashflow poor over 62 can get a reverse mortgage to pay their taxes. It's hard to imagine the rise in values each year after extracting 2.3% to pay their just taxes will not easily leave them more capital not less. Reverse mortgages got a bad rap because they were abused by aggressive lenders like every other type of mortgage. Lump sum withdrawal should not be allowed IMO, its just asking for abuse. As for the Heights, the preponderance of properties there pay more than they should, not less. But you miss the point about zero sum: lower the tax and the price will go up, raise the tax and the price will go down. This makes a difference to the seller, but not as much to the non-cash buyer. Buyers will buy where they can fit their needs and budget. They usually have a fixed amount to spend monthly in either case, and the slight difference in equity accumulation is not compelling.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 21:26
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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How is it dishonest? If someone purchases a car today and you purchase the same car tomorrow at a higher price, can you go back to the dealership and demand a refund? I fail to see how this is different. A person bought a condo on the water with a great view of Manhattan. Now they learn that someone owns a full brownstone next to Hamilton Park is paying half as much taxes and now they are demanding money back. I'm not saying there aren't those gaming the system by purchasing old homes. However, there are residents that have been here quite a while which may not be able to actually afford the new tax rate. Would you not pity them? Additionally, would you really want taxes raised in the Heights? Any desire to move there would be relegated.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 20:23
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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You make a very good point -- but one that is lost on investors who got properties cheap in areas like the Heights and now want to pay less in taxes.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 20:18
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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The way the assessment and equalization rate (currently 30.02%) works - is it assumes an approximate 3-fold increase in house prices uniformly across all of JC since 1988. Truth may be closer to 2 times increase in some areas, 5+ times increase downtown. Generally - all of downtown is underpaying, most other sections are overpaying.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 20:03
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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You are quite wrong about this. There are plenty of owners of properties worth $3-400k paying the same taxes, not tax rate, as owners of million dollar Downtown houses. If they're paying a real rate of 3-4% while the undertaxed are paying 1% like Fulop, a reval would drop them to the overall city rate of 2.291%(2014). Note that rate, it's the rate JC pays in aggregate. If one owner is paying 1% on a $1m house 3 houses worth $333k are paying 3.6% to balance the books, it's a zero sum game. http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr14hud.pdf Your "caveat emptor" argument that people who bought overtaxed properties should be complacent while those who bought undertaxed ones should be left alone to enjoy the benefit indefinitely is basically venal.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 20:02
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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Possible, but areas like Greenville are, I assume, paying lower taxes overall. I do not see how they would be impacted by a reval.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 19:45
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Think Brewster was referring to sections like Greenville where property values haven't appreciated as fast as downtown. I'd love someone to plot the impact of a reval based on current Zillow/Trulia data - that would be quite an eye-opener.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 19:41
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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Are they complacent? Also, are they overtaxed? Do you really believe that the people living in the condos downtown are overtaxed? In some element they are. From another perspective, they purchased those condos knowing what the tax rate was and now they want to pay less and force others to pay more. I can't say that this is entirely fair. Seems sort of like some people want to have their cake and eat it too...
Posted on: 2015/7/7 19:25
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Maybe they've been eating to much wild game meat.
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.main Quote:
Posted on: 2015/7/7 18:57
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Of course not. As I've explained in the past, it's a simple linear equation that low taxes means higher price. Assuming the buyer has a monthly budget, more tax means less to pay a mortgage, thus lower buying power. The cost to own the property remains the same but the price goes down. A reval will lower prices on undertaxed properties and raise them on the overtaxed. What I can't figure out is why the overtaxed are so complacent about being ripped off?
Posted on: 2015/7/7 18:39
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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Item left off your list: entertainment. You are correct that there is a section that could be worth as much as some parts of downtown. But close to the light rail or Journal Square isn't the same as saying close to Grove or Exchange Place or Newport. The view, however, is excellent.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 14:20
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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I would argue that parts of Ogden Ave are equal or superior to downtown: Nice tree lined streets Few big apartments full of section 8 tenants. NYC views 80 to 100 ft above sea level (no flooding) Elevator to Hoboken (North Side) Close to Light rail and/or PATH (depending where you are on Ogden).
Posted on: 2015/7/7 14:10
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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Do you really believe that Fulop's home is worth that price without the lower tax price? The renovation work looks great, but it is still located in the Heights (an area that I like but I think we can all agree is not equivalent to Downtown).
Posted on: 2015/7/7 14:01
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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It's not like he cancelled the real specifically so he could buy this house.
Posted on: 2015/7/7 13:15
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Anyone with an under assessed property. Fulop's purchase does illustrate these aren't limited to Downtown, but the most obvious cases are there. They don't need to have been held since 88, since transfer does not bring a new full assessment, only bigtime reno or a reval. And as Fulop's property illustrates, not always the former. I can only think of donations as to explain why these more affluent homeowners out-influence everyone else, but that can't explain why all the non-E council people sit on their hands while their constituents get the short end of the stick.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 21:41
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Who does postponing the reval really benefit? Developers? It's hard to envision that, since (as I remember from my days looking for my condo) newer projects seemed to be taxed at a much higher level than older conversions. Developers would seem to be positioned to benefit, as after a reval new construction wouldn't need to make up the shortfall from undervalued properties.
People who have owned their properties for a long time? If houses on your block sell for 10x what they did when these resident bought them, then they would staff to see a tax hike. And as a constituency, their opposition is being heard. Anyhow, I fail to see how the reval issue ties into Abbot school funding - a few high end sales can really skew the numbers, even while the average resident is not much wealthier.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 21:10
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Just for the record, JCGuys, the mayor has already spent $128,000 in legal fees to stop the reval. The city has paid the company $1.95 million under Healy and the Fulop is requesting a return of the money.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 20:51
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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500+ school districts in the state. It's an expensive joke. Have it countywide or even state level. There would be huge savings in administration costs.
Too bad there is never any positive reforms in this state, so we might as well leach the Abbot funding until the legislature and governor finally decide to act and reform the system. Since I'm on this rant, revals should be rolling every 3 years or so. Once every 25+ years is outright comical. Plus I also believed this should be a county level function rather than a city, as it allows too many games to be played. But alas, none of that will ever happen.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 20:45
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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What are the metrics to be included in an SDA formerly Abbott District?
It will be disastrous when the State pulls it's funding or even greatly reduces it.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 19:36
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Yet Fulop sees no problem filing a $400m lawsuit against the Port Authority because of his complaint that the Port Authority is not paying enough in property taxes to JC as per the tax abatement agreement between the city and the Port Authority. That's rich.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 19:10
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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I'll repeat again: why don't those Bayonne pols live in Jersey City? If they are jealous of the tax rates, why not buy a home in Bergen-Lafayette and move there? You don't get to say that you want to pay less but you don't want the same social ills that comes with the lower cost.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 19:09
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Bayonne overall taxes are greater than JC. Most of their tax dollars go the board of ed. It is the reason they do not give abatements compared to JC. I taped the debate for the Assembly seat, the Bayonne candidates complained about school taxes. Bayonne pays 50% of the local bill while JC pays 16%. If JC pays what Bayonne pays, our homes would lose value.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 19:05
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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Yvonne, have you taken a look around certain areas of Jersey City? When was the last shooting in Bayonne? There is a primary reason why taxes are so very low in a lot of areas. There is also a primary reason why people pay a lot in taxes in other parts of the state. The fact is, this house, along with thousands of others, are up for sale. Mr. Doherty can purchase them and pay the same tax rate. He doesn't want to. Instead of complaining about someone else getting a break, maybe he should think a bit further about why someone else is paying less.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 18:43
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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When the Abbot funding was written for urban areas, income guidelines were part of the equation. This was before the internet but I remember that being part of the formula. The average home probably was in the $50,000 range in JC. The sales prices today are similar to homes in suburban districts but those homes are without the Abbot funding for schools. Even Hoboken was an Abbot district and I don't know if that is the case anymore.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 18:42
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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The "hiding the ratables" argument is nonsense. There is a set tax rate on the entire tax base. This rate is neither high nor low for NJ. The only problem is how that tax base is distributed via individual assessments. Certain areas have appreciated faster than others since the last reval, leaving some properties paying 1/3 or less than others in less hot areas. So the Senator's complaint about the effect of canceling the reval being "hiding the ratables" is nonsense since the reval would by law not change the ratable tax base.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 18:31
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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You missed the point Pebble, JC and other urban districts received state funding for public schools based on the income of those residents, besides tests scores. I remember the Abbot funding, it had a lot to do with income of residents. Bayonne has similar students and do not receive our funding. This plus the fact that we are giving away the ratable base through abatements, I believe this Senator has a point in reducing our state aid for public schools.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 18:30
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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I'm honestly confused by those that make this complaint. The house was for sale. Fulop wasn't the only person that this home was offered to. If Doherty wanted to spend less in taxes, he could have purchased that exact home or maybe another in the same area. Seems to me that there are specific reasons that Doherty doesn't live in the areas of Jersey City in which the taxes are lower. Yet another in a long list of "I want to have my cake and eat it too" dopes...
Posted on: 2015/7/6 17:57
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Dan, Fulop did not do the reval so he can hand out generous tax abatements. The public would have called him out over this after reval. Yes, it made sense to blame the reval on Healy but that was not his concern. He wants to be governor and only developers have deep pockets. He sold us out.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 17:44
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop plays 'hide the ratables' from suburban taxpayers
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Home away from home
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its is a shame - two different problems.
PILOTs kick the can down the road and lock in taxes. And the failure to do the reval, means the wealthiest property owners are paying less than their fair share of taxes while poorer areas of town pay proportionally more. Performing the reval would be a way to reduce monthly costs in the poorer areas to draw residents and investment. Isn't that was the city says it is trying to do? And, the mayor could have easily blamed the reval on the prior administration, and 3/4 to 5/6th of the city would have been happy he did it. He could have done what was best for Jersey City and likely be re-elected with no clear challenger while controlling the strings of government. Instead, there is much uncertainty (except for new development with PILOT contracts) with no clear future for the city.
Posted on: 2015/7/6 17:15
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