One more thing to consider. Food trucks don't get to sell alcohol. It's hard to make a profit when you can't sell something that requires almost no preparation at 5x it's cost.

Personally I hope Bistro does go out of business, or they at least sell the place to someone who actually respects the community.

Two boots just needs to STFU and keep to their pizza and beer.

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It's as if they aren't making these enormous profits at the farmer's market that Favia and others claim they are! What a shock!

Talk about knucklehead !

The comment referred to construction sites and movie / advertising studio that operate in remote areas void of any food outlets ... many larger construction co's would have their own truck or even have a tender process to have independents arrive on site (keeping staff on site is more productive then staff travelling out to get lunch) - Do you really need to be spoon fed every detail?

As for rain that affects vans, a similar argument can be made for 'fixed' businesses - They can't move on if it rains or snows or there are road works, parking issues, power outs, supply issues, etc

Note: A bad food van can run around for unsuspecting customers but a 'fixed' business can't !

Segregate not Regulate is the fair win-win solution for both types of businesses.

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So, a food truck that mainly serves the construction sites and movie shoots is okay, but one that serves the general public is not? What kind of economy do we live in, again? The food trucks are not doing anything illegal and are operating to maximize their profit, just like any other business should and would.

Someone else also pointed out that when the weather is lousy, the food truck business drops off considerably, whereas the weather is far less of a factor to the brick and mortar restaurants.

I am so sick of the complaining by the restaurants. Learn to compete or get out of the business. Furthermore, I can't even understand Two Boots' complaint in all of this. There is NO ONE else that sells his kind of pizza in Jersey City, let alone the farmers' market, far as I know. His closest competitor is another Two Boots in Manhattan. If he's not doing well, it isn't because of the food trucks or tables on the plaza.

Didn't the Little Sandwhich Shop just expand? It would seem the market can't be taking too much of their business.

I understand the issue, I just don't think it should be all or nothing. Maybe 1 night a week instead of 2. Newark ave is obviously doing better than it ever has so the issue simply can't be that significant or we would be seeing increasing vacancies instead of more and more places coming in.

It's hard to get worked up over an issue that is does not appear to be doing enough harm to slow down new business and at the same time is adding a good deal of life to the streets.

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My logic is fine as its based on a friend who owns 2 food vending trucks and has on many occasions shared his business tactics and how he targets the places he trades from and knows that he can and has affected local 'fixed' businesses.

What you might consider stupid, the same friend said that segregation and not regulation is the way to go for fair trading, but he isn't going to voluntary comply or offer support for the idea. He also notes a slow decline in the food truck industry and see's it as a trend as the frisbee and yo-yo is and was. He also plays the game of positive feedback to keep his rating high on YELP etc as part of his business plan!

Note: Initially food trucks were in service for large scale construction sites and movie / advertising studios. When business was down, they would target existing clientele from local businesses to supplement their incomes - This is basically how my friend operates.

conversely, why doesn't every restaurant open one of these incredibly cheap and easy food trucks and profit from it? why aren't all these places with low rating manipulating their yelp reviews like you think the vendors are?

i understand you and logic have never been the closest of friends, but when you look THIS stupid, it's too much, even for you.

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As much as I enjoy the farmers market with all the food trucks I think it is short sided to not entertain the concerns of the brick and mortar businesses. After so much complaining on this board about discount stores and nail salons we are finally getting entrepreneurs making serious investments in the area. If HDSID doesn't take their concerns seriously the high rent and lower than expected profits may close some doors making new prospective investors skeptical of the area.

Where I see a valid complaint from the businesses is in the actions of HDSID. Clearly if it was necessary to go to City Hall it was because HDSID did not adequately address their concerns. As HDSID is acting management of events and services on public property and is a quasi public-private corporation taking in money from property owners they have a duty to serve the businesses in the SID zone. (There is a map of the zone on their site in the "about" section.) I would like the HDSID to make a formal statement on the issue.

As much as I like the farmers market with the food trucks, I like the changes happening with the full-time businesses more. They are there rain or shine and through the cold season when the market is gone. They got guts. They put their money where our mouth is and they get my full respect and support.

The concept of Fair Trading obviously doesn't compute with some.

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A market without prepared food vendors because a few restaurant owners got upset? Catering to the needs and desires of a few while everyone else gets nothing? Yeah, that's going to go over well.

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But we don't need to eliminate the food vendors. Consumers love them and I'm sorry that some brick and mortars don't like it. The market is for community.

Aaron - you have my respect on how you stay on the side of reason and patience on dealing with issue.

I think a lot of the people here "arguing" with you are coming from the point of a consumer, where as a business owner, you have to think of "business" - any owner not doing this should go and run a charity (wait - even a charity needs to balance the books!!!).

I've never been to Two Boots, but I'm going to come in this weekend to check it out myself!!!

PS Perhaps the key point for discussion is how can SID get the funding it needs without the prepared food vendors, in order to continue its operations!?!?!?

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His argument is we have to eliminate unfair, "government subsidized" competition. Which is completely ridiculous as demonstrated by the lengthy rebuttals some have posted.

It's also worth noting the irony of calling the completion "government subsidized" when you are the one running to the government to protect your profits.

If your only argument is "we don't like competition", you don't have a case. Yes, owning a business is tough, but you don't have a right to reduce competition just because it hurts your bottom line. Figure out a way to make sure people frequent YOUR business and worry less about OTHERS.

If you reduce competition, then consumers lose, and that's never a good thing.

Consumers want brick and mortar restaurants and pop-up vendors. There's nothing unfair or wrong with that.

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Why would/should they move to Communipaw/MLK Drive when they do well at Grove St?

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Why is it fair to segregate them? Consumers like having both brick and mortars and pop-ups near Grove St. It should be based on what the consumers want.

If these man in a van or man at a stand pop-up businesses are doing so well, why don't they become a permanent feature in the community and move into a store - We have some empty stores around Communipaw and MLK Drive ?

The ratings they quote we know are all bogus as everyones mom and dad can give positive feedback and even I know how to manipulate those ratings myself ... heaven forbid if someone was to proactively and deliberately leave negative feedback or continuously leave complaints !

The fair solution is to segregate brick and mortar businesses with the 'pop-ups' and let them survive in their own environments.

Segregation not regulation would seem a win-win solution

I went through point by point to address all of Two Boot's issues with the food vendors at the market....

This is from his speech at the council meeting:

?I?m speaking to you tonight because if enacted, this ordinance will pose a great threat to local brick and mortar food businesses.? ? Two Boots

1. The market only provides a threat to businesses that Jersey City residents don?t like. It gives the residents more options to choose from. If the brick and mortar business is better they will prefer that, especially if the brick and mortar offers a sit down experience.
Two boots has 3.5 stars on Yelp (Franchise/Chain)
Ibbys has 3.5 stars on Yelp (Franchise/Chain)
Bistro has 2.5 Stars on Yelp
In comparison, a lot of the vendors at the market have 4.5+ stars. (All micro-entreprenuers or existing JC businesses)
These vendors thrive because the community wants good food or health supportive food that they can?t get from the brick and mortar businesses. These restaurants should work on improving their food quality and service to meet customer expectations instead of trying to knock out the competition. Prove that you are better, don?t knock out the little guy.

?The ordinance doesn?t create true farmers? markets. Virtually every downtown restaurant supports true farmers? markets. By ?true,? we mean farmers? markets like those in New York City, the largest and most successful program in the country. They are defined as places where ?local farmers, fishers and bakers sell what they grow, raise, catch and bake themselves.? Prepared foods are not permitted. Why is this? Because New York City recognizes that the purpose of a farmers? market is to fill a gap, not to sell that which is already being offered by existing businesses. ? ? Two Boots

1. Isn?t a baker preparing food? What is the difference between a bakery and a restaurant in this scenario? There are bakeries in Jersey City who according to this logic should be just as upset?. But those bakeries are at the market advertising and selling their food instead of trying to take out the competition.
2. Jersey City is not New York City. There is a huge gap being filled by the food vendors for unique gourmet food or food that meets a person?s eating lifestyle. The businesses that are failing are the ones that are not providing a unique option for the residents. Where else in Jersey City can you get fresh organic/vegan/paleo food than at the market? Every restaurant around grove that is not making a culinary contribution to the community is going to fail. Grove Street is not that diverse in its food options, and the places that are unique thrive. In New York there is a restaurant for anything and everything. If the market did not sell unique gourmet prepared foods then all of those people buying from the market will just move their business and residence out of the State to NYC to satisfied their needs. We will lose residents and money will flow out of this city.

?Indeed under the definition in the ordinance, a farmers? market in Jersey City could sell Cocoa Puffs.? ? Two Boots

1. They could sell Cocoa Puffs, but no one would buy them. The Farmers market is brutal competition if you don?t offer something unique, you will not make it more than a few markets. The costs, transportation, and work that goes into running one of these stands is tremendous. If you are not selling something great you will not make money.

?It creates unfair competition. Opening a restaurant is an expensive, risky undertaking. Beyond the cost of building, which can rise into the millions, we must pay high rents, staff our restaurants, even when there?s little business, and pay high taxes and fees to Jersey City. In contrast, the food trucks and table vendors who participate at local farmers? markets have very few of these expenses.? ? Two Boots

1. These barriers to entry into the food market are the exact reason why we need prepared food vendors at the market. These stands allow entrepreneurs with great food ideas to grow and eventually become brick and mortar spaces. Otherwise we would only have chains like Two Boots, Ibby?s, Mcdonald, and Dunkin Doughnuts in the area. A majority of the greatest chefs who are truly committed to food spend their lives hidden away in a kitchen with their creativity stifled because they don?t have the ability to raise capital to start their own business. The market gives these entrepreneurs a chance to offer the community something amazing while acquiring business skills at a smaller level. The market serves as an incubator for those who cannot afford a location that may cost hundreds of thousands if not millions. That is not say these vendors don?t have expenses, food trucks can cost upwards of $100,000 and all of these stands that sell food are required to prepare their food in a commercial kitchen and have a health permit.

2. The market stands consume less of the city?s resources so they should pay less taxes? less waste disposal, water & power usage, city septic systems

?They are largely from outside Jersey City and many don?t even have physical locations.? ? Two Boots

1. There is no way that a single vendor from anywhere could survive doing a market 2 days a week. That is why vendors travel from their home towns to Jersey City to participate in this market. Conversely Jersey City vendors also travel to other cities to participate in markets. Most of the vendors that are not in Jersey City are close, and we should support small business across NJ not just in JC.

2. I don?t see why having a physical location has anything to do with anything.

?They can come in during peak hours and leave during the slow hours while we remain open, often losing money.? ? Two Boots

1. But you get to be there all year round, all day, every day making money. That is the nature of business, more risk means more reward. If you want to make more money you need a permanent location, I guarantee that Two Boots makes more in profit after all is said and done than any of these vendors do.

2. The market has terrible days, days in which all of the food you prepared you have to throw out. Where if it rains all of the money that you invested in product and ingredients is gone with no where to sell it the next day. A brick and mortar can hold onto goods and ingredients that it doesn?t sell. A stand does not have this luxury, you sell out or go broke. For most of these vendors who are already broke, a bad market day can mean finical hardship the rest of the week.

?In our case downtown, they have been given the best location in Jersey City during peak hours. And yet they have none of our costs.? ? Two Boots

1. It costs $150 to rent a 10 x 10 tent for 4 hours. This equates to $37.50 an hour for rent. If you multiply that by how many hours are usually in a month (720) that is equivalent to $27,000 a month in rent for a 10?10 space. This is equivalent to Two Boots paying $2,700 per square foot a month for rent.. The stands at the market have labor, transportation, rent, kitchen rental, administrative, and permit fees to pay while making substantially less money. Bottom line profits are not very high for these micro-businesses.

?We believe that Jersey City should encourage and nurture investment in brick and mortar businesses. The building of physical restaurants pumps millions of dollars into the Jersey City economy. We hire local contractors. We buy from local businesses. We employ thousands of Jersey City residents. We pay hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in taxes and fees.? ? Two Boots

1.Agreed but if you don?t help out small businesses grow then all you get are chains like Two Boots, Ibby?s and Dominos? Because these are the business that have the money to open restaurants in the pricey downtown area. JC residents don?t want chains, they want local unique food.

? In contrast, the prepared food vendors at farmers? markets employ almost no Jersey City residents and pump little, if any, money into the local economy.? ? Two Boots

1. This statement is completely false. The market not only employs Jersey City residents but it is a big draw for outsiders to move into our city. It also draws visitors from neighboring towns and areas, wanting to buy unique food, thus pumping money into our economy. The whole point of the market is provide something that the community wants. No one ever said ?Lets move to Grove St. because there is a Two Boots? Although,Two-Boots is great, and a great pizza place is definitely something I want to live by? The market attracts wealthy people to live here with its unique food, variety, and the vibrance it adds to the community. I think even Two Boots is benefiting from the markets but decides to fight sales drops on Mondays and Thursdays while ignoring overall growth.

?Some of us have seen real sales declines on the days the farmers? market takes place. Sales declines equal weaker businesses. Weaker brick and mortar businesses aren?t good for our local economy. If you enact this ordinance it will create a veritable free for all and damage brick and mortar businesses throughout Jersey City.? ? Two Boots

1. These businesses can set up shop at the market for FREE. This is free advertising and would make them money if their food is good. If their food can?t compete with the food at the market, then that is why their business is declining. They need to improve their product offering to meet the needs of the community instead of trying to eliminate the food vendors that are better than them.

?We believe that if food trucks and table vendors are allowed to sell at farmers markets with their massive cost advantage, it will deter further investment in new brick and mortar food businesses throughout Jersey City. Who wouldn?t think twice about locating a food business next to what is in essence a city-subsidized food court? Such an outcome wouldn?t be good for Jersey City. If we truly want more food businesses to open in Jersey City, we should lower barriers to entry, not erect them.? ? Two Boots

1. A brick and mortar should welcome the market as a FREE way to market their business to thousands of Jersey City residents. This market should encourage unique and innovative brick and mortar food businesses.


On opening a space at the market themselves (free to open a space)
from TwoBoots Jersey City Fan Page

?The problem is that we?ve already got huge costs in rent and wages in our existing locations. (That?s why the food trucks and tables have such a cost advantage over us.) ? ? Two Boots

1. The huge rents are a huge problem in Jersey City which stifle would be entrepreneurs from opening spaces in Jersey City. The market gives these would be brick and mortars a place to grow their business until they can afford a space in Jersey City or otherwise.
2. All of these businesses must have permits from the health department which means that they rent or own commercial kitchens in addition to paying for their space at the market. These are not people cooking out of their kitchen and putting it on a table. Overhead for these businesses, relative to their size and revenues is huge as well.

?If we have to set up a satellite location, it becomes prohibitively expensive.? ? Two Boots
1. If you have a brick and mortar location in JC then it is free to operate a table. This is the subsidy that is offered to make it fair for local businesses to compete with outside vendors.
2. Two Boots is about 50ft from the market, they can bake their pizzas and then walk them over to their booth just like they do at the streets fairs.
3. They have all of the signage and equipment to do this already from doing the street fairs.

?I already pay high rent for proximity to the Path station. Is it really fair that I pay that rent and then have to open a second location when others don?t have my basic rent to pay? ? ? Two Boots
1. This is laziness. It is free marketing for your business, and you will make money if you participate in the market.

?Pizza really needs an oven.? ? Two Boots
1. There would be no difference than what they do at the street fair.

?Plus it substantially raises my costs when I have to hire more people.? ? Two Boots
1. If Two Boots offers a substantial culinary contribution to the community than they should have no problem covering the costs of hiring 2 minimum wage employees for 8 hours a week. If they believe they can?t compete with the food at the market then that proves that they do not contribute to the food scene in the community and capitalism should let their business fail and let a better eating establishment take its place with more to offer.

?We?re all so close to the market that people shouldn?t be inconvenienced by our not being next to the produce.?
1. If there is produce at the market shouldn?t the places that sell produce like P&K, Tendershoot, Key foods, and Shoprite stop that too? It doesn?t seem fair to stop the prepared food competition without stopping the produce competition as well. Using this logic there should be no farmers market at all.

?The problem is really that people grab what is most convenient.?
1. They are the 2nd closest to the path train, making people walking that way more likely to go to Bistro?s pizza place if convenience is really the cause of decline of their sales. By joining the market they can be one step closer than Bistro, who chose to open a pizza kiosk literally a stone?s throw away from Two Boots, and they are open every day. Besides that they could get customers who are walking the other direction from Two Boots and let them know they are there and how good their food is.

?Additionally, As to marketing, at this point most people know about us.?
1. There are literally 8 pizza places within a 5 minute walking radius of Two Boots. A lot of them have opened within the past year or few years. If they have stopped marketing, that is the reason why their business is declining. What Two Boots needs now more than ever is more marketing. For marketing its all about staying top of mind. People know they are there, but do they remember how good the pizza is? Do they remember they are there when its dinner time? When someone says lets go out to eat tonight are they top of mind? The more exposure you have, the more advertising you do the more those answers are yes. The most successful companies in the world everyone knows that they exist? but they advertise like crazy, repeating their brand message over and over to stay on top of mind and relevant. Why do companies that everyone know?s their product and uses their product still advertise? Companies like Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Budweiser all know that staying top of mind is how you get sales. Right down to the most successful small businesses all make their presence very known all the time? This could be a great boost for their business and the other businesses that participate. If you stop advertising people will forget about about you.

From another Facebook Conversation in the Entrepreneur?s Cafe Group

?Were it only unique products like yours I?d be in favor of some sort of limited period where startups who had an intention of building in JC could get going. That?s simply not what?s happening at Grove Plaza. You have two vendors of falafel. You have meatballs. You have sandwiches. You have Tacos. You have empanadas. You have barbecue. These non unique items make up the vast majority of what is sold and are already sold in the neighborhood.?

1. Both barbecue places are JC brick and Mortars taking advantage of the free marketing the market provides.
Tacos are a Hoboken Brick and Mortar
The soup and sandwich stand, the owners had a JC brick and mortar but they closed and now are planning to open a new location.
The other sandwich guy, the one with no sign, makes a sandwich the size of a small baby with fresh ingredients. I promise you have never had a sandwich like this.
The meatball guy, yes they are in slight competition with Roman Nose, but I think a meatball sandwich which buffalo and teriyaki sauce is a different market than meatballs and pasta?
Stella?s empanada?s are in Kearny, but also where is there another place to get gluten free or any empanada?s in JC?

?Does your right to buy a gluten free empanada trump the rights of all of us who pay to be where we are??
1. Yes my right to buy an empenada does trump Two Boots? right to be the only business close to my house, because the residents pay to live in downtown JC and pay your rent. Because it is the resident?s right to eat where they want and form their community how they see fit. The customer wants unique food options close to them, that is what makes downtown such a desirable place to live.

?You?re missing the point that the government (in this case the SID) should not be subsidizing some food businesses and not others.?
1.These ?subsidies? are bringing more people with more money into our town who are spending more money at Two Boots business and at the 17 others (if they are great establishments)?If Two Boots? sales are up year over year you can thank the government for doing a good job developing this area bringing in new residents with money, subsidizing street fairs and markets, helping small businesses, making grove a great place to live.

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Dear Jeff,

Make better food and people will come.

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There are other ways of getting more fresh produce besides a whiny business owner trying to get the government to block his competition.

I don't like those empanadas either. But my solution is to skip that stall. Not try to get them banned.

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for empanadas, go to el sason de las americas.

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They are small and overpriced.

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Agreed! More produce at the Farmer's Market, please (and how ridiculous that we have to request this).

Though am I alone in thinking that Stellas Empanadas aren't all that? I've probably tried every variety, in an attempt to figure out why there's always a line. I just find them bland.

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Exactly!

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I'm curious. We all know that the Ibby's owner is trying to get "unfair" competition banned because he testified at the city council meeting. Did the Gipsy Grill owner do the same?

Or is he just better at competing so he does not feel the need to join this cause?

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You won not only my heart, but this thread. Thank you

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For truly amazing lentil soup, go to Gipsy Grill. Their soups is made fresh every day, and it is INCREDIBLE. In fact, I have yet to have anything less than stellar at Gipsy Grill. Their shawarma is excellent, their falafel is great, their hot peppers will sear your mouth, etc. And, the owner is usually there and always greets you with a smile. I happily hand over my money to those guys.

I don't think the farmers markets should be regulated or limited in terms of what they offer. The diversity of offerings reflect the many different things these farmers and businesses provide. I love the surprises. I also loved getting knives sharpened last year at Hamilton Park (not sure if that still goes on).

There will always be forces of competition for any type of business. These complainers should also not assume that the people spending money at the market would otherwise spend money with them.

I would just like to see the Farmers Market on Monday and Thursday in Grove St Plaza be more of an actual "FARMERS" Market - local farmers selling the products they grow or raise themselves. I used to go to the Union Square Market regularly so imagine my surprise when I moved to JC and discovered I could get a frozen veal parm there.

I thought the whole purpose of Farmers Markets was to allow residents in urban areas increased access to fresh, locally grown produce?

The food trucks and other prepared food vendors can sell their wares on festival days - Groove on Grove, JC Project, 6th Borough market and the like. Actually, the food trucks can go ahead and sell any day they like - since they already do.

The only problem with that idea is that I'd have to go to Kearny to get Stella's empanadas, but I'd be willing to make that sacrifice if it meant we could get a butcher or fresh fish to DTJC.

This whole thing reminds me of this old Tom Green sketch.

Undercutters Pizza

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Ok, then that makes sense. I usually just get a falafal and hummus sandwich. Or the lentil soup, which is amazing.