trambone wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.

Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.

Let me ask this question. Why are they dropping out? Are they flunking out at 21? Are they leaving to pursue other options?(Some of which do not always require a HS diploma or they would rather just get a GED)

Also on the other hand how do we not know other poorer districts are just pushing students through? Other more affluent districts have been known to make their "advanced" students have better grades then they have earned so they can apply for top universities to bring accolades to that district. Many of these numbers that are provided have no real context.

JCMan8 wrote:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

At one time the Kansas City experiment was going to be a progressive light unto the educational nation. Instead, it became the most expensive desegregation plan in the nation and, in terms of achievement-bang-for-the-educational-buck, the biggest failure, too. Kansas City did all the things that educators had always said needed to be done to increase student achievement--it reduced class size, decreased teacher workload, increased teacher pay, and dramatically expanded spending per pupil--but none of it worked.

......


No one was more disappointed than former school board president Sue Fulson. "I truly believed," she told the Harvard Project on School Desegregation in 1992, "if we gave teachers and administrators everything they said they needed that they would truly make a huge difference. I knew it would take time, but I did believe by five years into this program we would see not just results, but dramatic results, educationally. And [the fact we didn't] is my bitterest disappointment."

jcdd wrote:
jcman8 - I have no connection to teachers whatsoever. However, I do have a child that I believe deserves to have an education at least as good as the public school education I received (in another state). We need to stop talking about how bad the parents are, how bad the kids are and start truly focusing on how to improve our schools. Jersey City will never grow to its full potential or have qualify of life issues improve, if this City does not work to retain middle/upper class families. The only way this is going to happen is to improve the public schools. Having decent private schools is not enough because middle class folks can simply move to the burbs and have access to better schools at a much cheaper cost of living. If you own a home in JC, then schools should be of a concern to you if you truly want to see your home value continue to appreciate.

trambone wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.

Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.

Let me ask this question. Why are they dropping out? Are they flunking out at 21? Are they leaving to pursue other options?(Some of which do not always require a HS diploma or they would rather just get a GED)

Also on the other hand how do we not know other poorer districts are just pushing students through? Other more affluent districts have been known to make their "advanced" students have better grades then they have earned so they can apply for top universities to bring accolades to that district. Many of these numbers that are provided have no real context.

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.

Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.

trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.

trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.

What I am trying to get at is that our education system is not perfect, but you cannot fault just teachers for the poor graduation rate.

I would love to see you perform well at your job while eating what a person at the poverty level does for 8 months straight. These are children that are already behind the eight ball.

dtjcview wrote:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013 ... ools_come_out_on_top.html

JSleeze wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Dodge, dodge, dodge. It is quite clear that ianmac is a NY Brooklyn hipster troll-he wants NJ taxpayers to cover bi-state infrastructure that also benefits NY, and wants a say in how NJ compensates their teachers, while not paying NJ taxes.

It must be killing him how fast charter schools will soon replace the NY public school system, at least if the parents have a say in it.

Strong words for an anonymous coward.

A coward who is paying more in NJ real estate taxes to support NJ students than you pay in your rent stabilized Williamsburg apartment?

Yup, a coward with skin in the game you lack. That's me! :)

And Monroe - you are a JC cop who lives in the suburbs with a political ax to grind and who clearly has too much time on his hands, given the amount of time that you post at all hours of the day. As a cop, you are protected by a very strong union who doesn't allow for the weeding out of the bad apples (like the guys who are spending half their day on JC List....)

Monroe wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Dodge, dodge, dodge. It is quite clear that ianmac is a NY Brooklyn hipster troll-he wants NJ taxpayers to cover bi-state infrastructure that also benefits NY, and wants a say in how NJ compensates their teachers, while not paying NJ taxes.

It must be killing him how fast charter schools will soon replace the NY public school system, at least if the parents have a say in it.

Strong words for an anonymous coward.

A coward who is paying more in NJ real estate taxes to support NJ students than you pay in your rent stabilized Williamsburg apartment?

Yup, a coward with skin in the game you lack. That's me! :)

trambone wrote:
an increase in pay won't always draw good teachers either. A district that can guarantee funding for supplies, up to date text books, and keeping classes small will keep teachers invigorated.

Pebble wrote:
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So you don?t see any flaw in the logic or comparison?? One job search engine. One necessary factor, listing of salary. Is it possible that there are many entry level postings while there are few mid-tier postings?
...

dtjcview wrote:
@Pebble - for new hires, looking at graduate job postings gives a pretty reasonable estimate of prevailing market rates. If the question is how do we attract the best and brightest - that's the first comparison we need to look at.

For teacher with x years service it becomes more problematic to compare to the private sector. In the private sector - you pretty much stay at the same salary unless you start adding increased value. You rarely get length of service increases, nor direct increases for adding to your qualifications. In the teaching profession you could be adding exactly the same value whether you're paid $50k or $100k, masters degree or not.

Until we figure a way of rewarding teachers for performance, the only real way we can compare teachers - is to compare with other public sector employees - in different professions - or in different countries. On broad averages, teachers are probably underpaid relative to other countries - I think I saw a number of 20-30% in one OECD/PISA survey. And personally I'd be more than happy to support that kind of increase if it took the US back to the top of the education league globally. At the moment, we're falling and continuing to fall. I'm not sure I'd want to unconditionally reward all current teachers for getting us to where we are at now.

Monroe wrote:
Let's take the low average, and say 5% of the over 100,000 teachers shouldn't be teaching.

That's over 5,000 teachers educating over 100,000 kids.

100,000 kids being shortchanged because of those who want to defend the status quo at all costs.

Because it's not about the children to them, it's about keeping lousy teachers in their jobs.

Which is disgusting.

dtjcview wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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The trouble with linking teacher salaries with performance is there is no good way to measure it.
...

There is exactly the same issue in the private sector, if your job doesn't directly contribute to corporate revenue eg: sales staff.

Other staff are simply ranked within their grade and compensated, based on feedback from a collection of sources - managers, peers, etc. And the ranking is typically as simply as - outstanding, ok, could do better.

Can't be that hard to put something similar - that's also reasonably fair and transparent - into the JCPS system.

ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
Also, Monroe, I assume you've resorted to personal attacks since you realize your own arguments and logic don't hold water. It must be tough to hold such fervent views, realize you're wrong, and then have no other avenue to express it other than attack people personally.

Says the guy who called me an 'ignorant slut' in a previous thread?

What have I said that is untrue about you? Is being called a hipster troll from Williamsburg incorrect? You opine on NJ and JC constantly, but don't live or pay taxes here.

Time to put down your warm PBR, pull your knit cap down low, don a lumberjack shirt, and go have a handrolled Drum smoke and re-assess methinks!

Hmmm... failing to recognize a major pop culture reference? Do you even live in the United States?

How would anyone know who you are, since you say all these things hidden beyond an anonymous username.

Monroe wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
Also, Monroe, I assume you've resorted to personal attacks since you realize your own arguments and logic don't hold water. It must be tough to hold such fervent views, realize you're wrong, and then have no other avenue to express it other than attack people personally.

Says the guy who called me an 'ignorant slut' in a previous thread?

What have I said that is untrue about you? Is being called a hipster troll from Williamsburg incorrect? You opine on NJ and JC constantly, but don't live or pay taxes here.

Time to put down your warm PBR, pull your knit cap down low, don a lumberjack shirt, and go have a handrolled Drum smoke and re-assess methinks!

ianmac47 wrote:
Also, Monroe, I assume you've resorted to personal attacks since you realize your own arguments and logic don't hold water. It must be tough to hold such fervent views, realize you're wrong, and then have no other avenue to express it other than attack people personally.

Monroe wrote:

A coward who is paying more in NJ real estate taxes to support NJ students than you pay in your rent stabilized Williamsburg apartment?

Yup, a coward with skin in the game you lack. That's me! :)