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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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dtjcview wrote:
Median stacks the low end. The AVERAGE JC teacher salary 2012-3 was $75.7k - see http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/13/11/14/school-salaries/

The starting salary in JC for 2012-3 was $51,078. I rounded up to $52k for 2014-5. Let me post the top line from the PDF: $50,000 or Higher Starting Salaries.

Not average. Not median. But STARTING.

http://www.njea.org/njea-media/pdf/50Kminimum.pdf?1412242710439

How do I feel about a $52k starting salary? It's way too low to attract the best. Needs to be $70-80k to be competitive. But that should come with the same kind of conditions that the private sector applies (401k, healthcare, performance reviews, etc).

Current Median according to Salary.com is $62k. Median does not stack the low end, it shouldn't if the mathematics are performed correctly.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 18:06
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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linky wrote:
"The people who say poverty is no excuse for low performance are now using teacher accountability as an excuse for doing nothing about poverty". David Berliner's (former academic dean of education at Arizona State) comment regarding the passage of No Child Left Behind. I'm a teacher, and I've worked for in the JC public schools. Excellent article which sheds light on the situation. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/07/21/wrong-answer


Wow. Talk about cherry picking an article. That's all you got from that article?? The essence of the article, for those who will not bother reading the lengthy text, is that corruption in Atlanta reached the highest levels. Teachers chose to cheat by changing test scores, for many different reasons. But, test cheating by teachers is a form of CORRUPTION.


If you had better comprehension skills and were able to make inferences while reading a magazine article, you would know that the essence of the article is not that cheating in Atlanta reached the highest levels. The essence of the article is that cheating, like the rampant cheating in Atlanta, occurs because teachers and school systems have their backs up against the wall due to the unreasonable expectations of reformers and politicians.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 17:59
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebble wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.



The STARTING SALARY of $52k for JC teachers was posted on the NJEA website that I linked. Take it up with them.


You are incorrect. That is not that starting salary. That is the median salary across the board when you account for every public school teacher in Jersey City. (http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html)

Given that the starting salary is about $50, how do feel about those raises?



If they had your ability for comprehension and math, I'd fire every last one of them.

I posted the link. Where am I wrong?


Median stacks the low end. The AVERAGE JC teacher salary 2012-3 was $75.7k - see http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/13/11/14/school-salaries/

The starting salary in JC for 2012-3 was $51,078. I rounded up to $52k for 2014-5. Let me post the top line from the PDF: $50,000 or Higher Starting Salaries.

Not average. Not median. But STARTING.

http://www.njea.org/njea-media/pdf/50Kminimum.pdf?1412242710439

How do I feel about a $52k starting salary? It's way too low to attract the best. Needs to be $70-80k to be competitive. But that should come with the same kind of conditions that the private sector applies (401k, healthcare, performance reviews, etc).

Posted on: 2014/10/7 17:46
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.



The STARTING SALARY of $52k for JC teachers was posted on the NJEA website that I linked. Take it up with them.


You are incorrect. That is not that starting salary. That is the median salary across the board when you account for every public school teacher in Jersey City. (http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html)

Given that the starting salary is about $50, how do feel about those raises?



If they had your ability for comprehension and math, I'd fire every last one of them.

I posted the link. Where am I wrong?

Posted on: 2014/10/7 17:15
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebble wrote:
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Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.



The STARTING SALARY of $52k for JC teachers was posted on the NJEA website that I linked. Take it up with them.


You are incorrect. That is not that starting salary. That is the median salary across the board when you account for every public school teacher in Jersey City. (http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html)

Given that the starting salary is about $50, how do feel about those raises?



If they had your ability for comprehension and math, I'd fire every last one of them.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 17:13
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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bodhipooh wrote:
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linky wrote:
"The people who say poverty is no excuse for low performance are now using teacher accountability as an excuse for doing nothing about poverty". David Berliner's (former academic dean of education at Arizona State) comment regarding the passage of No Child Left Behind. I'm a teacher, and I've worked for in the JC public schools. Excellent article which sheds light on the situation. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/07/21/wrong-answer


Wow. Talk about cherry picking an article. That's all you got from that article?? The essence of the article, for those who will not bother reading the lengthy text, is that corruption in Atlanta reached the highest levels. Teachers chose to cheat by changing test scores, for many different reasons. But, test cheating by teachers is a form of CORRUPTION.


Actually, the essence of the article was that because No Child Left Behind tied financial aid to success rather than based on need, so that impoverished schools that are already at a disadvantage become even more disadvantaged because they are penalized rather than given the help they need while wealthy schools that are already successful receive more money.The result was that school districts became desperate to achieve "success" to ensure they had access to the financial resources they needed and cheated on tests. Only because teachers received nominal bonuses tied to performance were they considered "corrupt" under the law.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 15:38
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.


I think if you include racial makeup of those in poverty you will get a better picture of what we are dealing with. Both UC and WNY have similar demographics, but JC's is different.

The impact teachers have on students is overrated (I myself went to a greatschools.org rated high school of only 5, yet went to an Ivy). However I had a mother and a father that I lived with and help/pushed me with my studies.


So, what exactly is your point? The lower graduation rates are due to the race of kids? It's no longer a poverty issue, but one of race?

As for your personal experience, I happen to agree with you fully (and, I think, many others as well) and that is that the involvement (or, lack of) by parents makes a HUGE difference. I was equally fortunate to have parents who valued education and relentlessly pushed us to excel and expected nothing but top grades. We can't replace the parents of kids, though. We can try and come up with social policies that encourage/reward parental involvement, or somehow make it easier for that to happen.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 14:37
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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"The people who say poverty is no excuse for low performance are now using teacher accountability as an excuse for doing nothing about poverty". David Berliner's (former academic dean of education at Arizona State) comment regarding the passage of No Child Left Behind. I'm a teacher, and I've worked for in the JC public schools. Excellent article which sheds light on the situation. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/07/21/wrong-answer


Wow. Talk about cherry picking an article. That's all you got from that article?? The essence of the article, for those who will not bother reading the lengthy text, is that corruption in Atlanta reached the highest levels. Teachers chose to cheat by changing test scores, for many different reasons. But, test cheating by teachers is a form of CORRUPTION.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 14:31
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.



The STARTING SALARY of $52k for JC teachers was posted on the NJEA website that I linked. Take it up with them.


You are incorrect. That is not that starting salary. That is the median salary across the board when you account for every public school teacher in Jersey City. (http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html)

Given that the starting salary is about $50, how do feel about those raises?


Posted on: 2014/10/7 14:30
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.


I think if you include racial makeup of those in poverty you will get a better picture of what we are dealing with. Both UC and WNY have similar demographics, but JC's is different.

The impact teachers have on students is overrated (I myself went to a greatschools.org rated high school of only 5, yet went to an Ivy). However I had a mother and a father that I lived with and help/pushed me with my studies.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 14:26
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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JCMan8 wrote:
This video shows some of the challenges associated with teaching in a diverse school district such as JC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonSqHNoWkQ


You must know this is a spoof, right? It was hilarious, though.


Oh, certainly. But he encapsulates the "progressive" mindset so well that it was worth sharing.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 14:14
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Philly teachers in meltdown over having to contribute 5-13% of the cost of their healthcare premiums.

http://www.philly.com/philly/educatio ... and_sets_off_a__war_.html


This will definitely improve student performance.


Yes, 50 to 70 million a year will do just that.


That money, SRC Chairman Bill Green said, will be invested directly in classrooms, with principals empowered to use the cash as they see fit - to hire a full-time counselor and nurse, perhaps, or to pay for more supplies or after-school programs.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 13:35
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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This video shows some of the challenges associated with teaching in a diverse school district such as JC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonSqHNoWkQ


You must know this is a spoof, right? It was hilarious, though.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 13:31
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Philly teachers in meltdown over having to contribute 5-13% of the cost of their healthcare premiums.

http://www.philly.com/philly/educatio ... and_sets_off_a__war_.html


This will definitely improve student performance.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 13:27
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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This video shows some of the challenges associated with teaching in a diverse school district such as JC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonSqHNoWkQ

Posted on: 2014/10/7 13:19
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Philly teachers in meltdown over having to contribute 5-13% of the cost of their healthcare premiums.

http://www.philly.com/philly/educatio ... and_sets_off_a__war_.html

Posted on: 2014/10/7 11:25
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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"The people who say poverty is no excuse for low performance are now using teacher accountability as an excuse for doing nothing about poverty". David Berliner's (former academic dean of education at Arizona State) comment regarding the passage of No Child Left Behind. I'm a teacher, and I've worked for in the JC public schools. Excellent article which sheds light on the situation. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/07/21/wrong-answer

Posted on: 2014/10/7 9:49
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebs, it's totally fine to say it's ok to get rid of the 10% or so of poor performing teachers while at the same time saying that the overall problem is uninvolved parents. And we should pay the top 10% of teachers more.

I'll leave it to the education professionals to figure out how to evaluate the teachers.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 21:30
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Boodipah - perhaps younger folks without kids are concerned about their taxes (if they own property). I used to be one of them. I moved here over a decade ago as a young professional, got married and decided to stay in JC because I like it. As a parent of a young child, I AM the involved, active parent trying to make change happen. The problem is, change is not happening fast enough and people like me eventually sell our houses/condos in JC and move out to the burbs, because it is cheaper to live in the burbs and you get better services and schools for your money. Despite the talk of how much money is being spent on JC schools, there is a total lack of investment in schools in this community - many of the schools are literally falling apart, with lead contaminated water, no playgrounds, little sports and rec, and nothing is being done about it. Until this community takes a real interest in its school system and finds a measure of pride in offering quality education, young families will continue to move away and property values and qaulity of life issues will stagnate (or at least not improve at the same rate as they would if schools were a viable option here).

Posted on: 2014/10/6 19:05
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.



The STARTING SALARY of $52k for JC teachers was posted on the NJEA website that I linked. Take it up with them.


Posted on: 2014/10/6 17:50
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebble, if you've read my comments, I believe the overall large issue in JC is the parents and the kids, and not the teachers. And it's something that, sadly, is fully upon the family at home to address. No amount of tax money sent to JC will force parents to make sure their kids do their homework, or get to bed in order to get a good nights sleep.

Right, so why do you continue to hammer on about the teachers being a problem or think that, since much of the blame falls on them, that they don?t deserve a raise?

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Monroe wrote:
But, and it's a big but, there still are going to be teachers who mail it in, teachers who've just given up, teachers that lack the motivation to change the world they had when young, and teachers who lack the skills (and the desire to learn them) we need in 2014 and beyond.

And such a thing exists in every single industry, at every company and at every level. It is impossible to weed out every bad apple in education when you know for a fact that you can?t weed it out in any other industry.

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Monroe wrote:
And until the perfect storm of Governor Christie and Senate President Sweeney came together to hold the NJEA's collective feet over the fire for common sense reforms, the NJEA just dug in and fought it. F o r d e c a d e s.

I compared it to the NRA fighting any and all legislation regarding gun control. Are you unable to see the similarities.

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Monroe wrote:
And to Christie and Sweeney's credit, they decided that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and both compromised with the NJEA over reforms. Say what you want about Christie, but his willingness to do exactly that is what has made sensible, progressive reforms in areas like tenure and municipal tax caps. (Which Cuomo mirrored re:tax caps).

Giving credit to two scumbags? no thanks. The NJEA pushed forward ideas and dishonestly negotiated. They are both hucksters.

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Monroe wrote:
Yes, my kids and I went through the best school system in NJ, with affluent, involved parents. We also pay the highest real estate taxes in the state to drive the excellent schools, because unlike JC, whose residents pay 16% of their school costs, Millburn pays 86%. (Note to ianmac, I own in Millburn/Short Hills and rent in JC).

As I have stated before, you pay more so that you don?t have to deal with the poor. It doesn?t matter what JC parents pay. It?s called luxury. If you wanted to pay less, you?d live amongst the people you clearly know don?t parent well.

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Monroe wrote:
In short, NJ has many great teachers who deserve to be paid more-and inner city teachers perhaps should get 'combat pay' across the board for the merely fair, good, and excellent.

We also shouldn't have to carry teachers that have proven they lack the ability to teach effectively (given that they should have a chance to reform and improve when identified).

The method of evaluation is complex, but doable. The cost of not eliminating lousy teachers is immense for our kids.

Ok, so how to quantify a teacher?s performance? You said ?it?s complex but doable.? Well, how?

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dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
...
So you don?t see any flaw in the logic or comparison?? One job search engine. One necessary factor, listing of salary. Is it possible that there are many entry level postings while there are few mid-tier postings?
...


It was an entry-level vs entry level comparison. So nope. If anything the Job Search returned a slightly higher salary result bias. Plus I happen to know what entry-level grads make in some of those professions in the industry I work in - and they're in the right ballpark.

The grads that step straight into a $150k/year job are the ivy-league direct intakes/ex-interns - and perhaps those don't get advertised. But none would work in JC.

Somehow this seems to be a shift in discussion. Now you are talking about entry-level jobs? That?s not what the website states. It states that it is a summation of available jobs on the market that their search engines can pick up. It does not cover jobs without a salary description. Additionally, you chose to compare these values to what an average teacher makes, which is most definitely not entry-level.


Posted on: 2014/10/6 17:40
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I did think that was covered in "The problem is the populations we are trying to serve."
Like I said, Everyone is right.
The challenge is deciding what we are going to do about it.


Add to that "population" column the children of immigrants who are not literate in their native language (as often are their parents), so expecting them to quickly become literate in our is unrealistic. Yet the ESL teachers are expected to take a teen with no english and have them pass the standardized tests. This is not a suburban problem.


That issue you highlight is actually quite complex. Unbeknownst to many people, many immigrants from Central America and South America, speak native dialects not rooted in Spanish. These are people that live in mountainous regions, or far away from metropolitan centers in their native countries. Mexico has over 300 such dialects. Peru over 100. Sometimes, these immigrants make it as far North as NYC, and they are essentially incapable of communicating with anyone, with a very rudimentary grasp of Spanish. I have personally witnessed a family visiting a doctor, and their little girl acting as the translator because the assigned hospital translator was useless in such a situation. Often times, the oldest kid in these families is saddled with acting as a liaison with the rest of the world. There are no easy answers to some of these issues. But, some issues we could address and possibly solve. I believe that corruption and mismanagement fall into that category.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 17:09
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I would also gather that 100% of the comments on here complaining of the high cost of educating kids comes from older individuals that don't have children in this school system - and particularly those who, if they had children, those children have already received he benefit of a public or private education and are now grown. As I've said before, people are generally self interested.


Wait, so you don't believe that young professionals choosing to live in JC are concerned about their taxes and how that money is (mis)spent??? Talk about broad strokes. I guarantee you that within 5 or 10 years, as JC gets more and more gentrified, you will start to see similar results to what has transpired in the gentrified areas of NYC: young parents getting involved, demanding better performance and stewardship, and expecting results. It's only a matter of time before the people coming over actually choose to stay in large enough numbers to make a difference in local politics. I am sure that scares the hell out of some long time residents and the entrenched politicians.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 17:00
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Binky wrote:
I did think that was covered in "The problem is the populations we are trying to serve."
Like I said, Everyone is right.
The challenge is deciding what we are going to do about it.


Add to that "population" column the children of immigrants who are not literate in their native language (as often are their parents), so expecting them to quickly become literate in our is unrealistic. Yet the ESL teachers are expected to take a teen with no english and have them pass the standardized tests. This is not a suburban problem.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 16:19
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Monroe - plenty of families have breakdowns in family units via divorce in the suburbs. I know plenty of middle/upper class kids that still have "issues" stemming from their parents' divorce. I don't think we can really say that this is the "main" problem in the inner cities.


I would also gather that 100% of the comments on here complaining of the high cost of educating kids comes from older individuals that don't have children in this school system - and particularly those who, if they had children, those children have already received he benefit of a public or private education and are now grown. As I've said before, people are generally self interested.


Posted on: 2014/10/6 13:57
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I did think that was covered in "The problem is the populations we are trying to serve."
Like I said, Everyone is right.
The challenge is deciding what we are going to do about it.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 13:49
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Binky wrote:
I was watching this documentary on PBS the other night. I recommend it highly to anyone who wants to understand more deeply some of the challenges of educating kids in the inner cities.
The problem is money.
The problem is corruption.
The problem is teachers and what they are trained to do.
The problem is the populations we are trying to serve.
Everyone posting in this thread here is right about the problems that they see..
The challenge is deciding what we are going to do about it. I think that by now we should be able to recognize the cost of not doing it.


The biggest problem, unmentioned by you, is the breakdown of the family unit and parental responsibility.

The problem in JC isn't money, that's for sure. JC spends 25% more per student than the state average.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 11:50
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I was watching this documentary on PBS the other night. I recommend it highly to anyone who wants to understand more deeply some of the challenges of educating kids in the inner cities.
The problem is money.
The problem is corruption.
The problem is teachers and what they are trained to do.
The problem is the populations we are trying to serve.
Everyone posting in this thread here is right about the problems that they see..
The challenge is deciding what we are going to do about it. I think that by now we should be able to recognize the cost of not doing it.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 11:39
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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trambone wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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trambone wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
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trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.


Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.


Let me ask this question. Why are they dropping out? Are they flunking out at 21? Are they leaving to pursue other options?(Some of which do not always require a HS diploma or they would rather just get a GED)

Also on the other hand how do we not know other poorer districts are just pushing students through? Other more affluent districts have been known to make their "advanced" students have better grades then they have earned so they can apply for top universities to bring accolades to that district. Many of these numbers that are provided have no real context.


As someone else already stated, you are now changing goal posts. First, you questioned the graduation rate stat. Once evidence of it is quoted, you throw out poverty as the reason. When poorer towns with much better graduation rates are highlighted, you change the reasoning to kids dropping out voluntarily and questioning all of the stats.

Why not simply admit (and, then, try to address) the issue of corruption and mismanagement?? There is just NO WAY that we have to spend SO MUCH money per pupil. JC now spends the equivalent of college tuition per student. We should stop the madness. Especially before things change (and, I have no doubt they will at some point) and the courts get rid of Abbott or heavily rework it.


Its football season, but i'll change the sports analogy to baseball. You always have to question the meaning behind the stats. What do the numbers mean and how do you come up with them and then how should value them. If a player in baseball has a ton of RBIs is he really a good player or just getting lucky because men get on before him? You just want to assume there are just tons of bad teachers.

a few reasons why a student may drop out.

1. They turned 18 and are forced out of the house.
2. Teen Pregnancy. Not completely an education issue.
3. They want to pursue other interests and a high school diploma may not be completely necessary.
4. Influence of outside gangs.

Education is funny because everyone comments on it, but have no experience with it.



I will agree that stats should always be questioned (source, process, etc) but the fact remains that we are talking about three municipalities within a stone throw of each other. All those things you listed should be (more or less) applicable to all three. The numbers are quite different.

I doubt we can reach an agreement, but I will simply say that you are assuming much about me. I never said we have a TON of bad teachers. I said we have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue. I believe that is so crystal clear as to be obvious. Perhaps you disagree. If so, let the status quo remain. I believe that if JC residents were forced to pay their "real" share of education taxes, people would leave in droves and/or demand changes.

Posted on: 2014/10/6 9:58
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
Did you also notice the poverty rate is also at 30%? Many of these children only eat at school. Have access to the internet at school. Access to other educational needs at school.


Did you notice that our neighbors to the North have MORE children living in poverty, and yet manage to graduate many more of them?

Jersey City: 30.2% in poverty, 67.5% graduation rate
West New York: 34.5% in poverty, 78.4% graduation rate
Union City: 36.5% in poverty, 79.2% graduation rate

The problem with facts is that they can't be easily dismissed... Face it. We have a corruption and/or mismanagement issue in JC.


Let me ask this question. Why are they dropping out? Are they flunking out at 21? Are they leaving to pursue other options?(Some of which do not always require a HS diploma or they would rather just get a GED)

Also on the other hand how do we not know other poorer districts are just pushing students through? Other more affluent districts have been known to make their "advanced" students have better grades then they have earned so they can apply for top universities to bring accolades to that district. Many of these numbers that are provided have no real context.


As someone else already stated, you are now changing goal posts. First, you questioned the graduation rate stat. Once evidence of it is quoted, you throw out poverty as the reason. When poorer towns with much better graduation rates are highlighted, you change the reasoning to kids dropping out voluntarily and questioning all of the stats.

Why not simply admit (and, then, try to address) the issue of corruption and mismanagement?? There is just NO WAY that we have to spend SO MUCH money per pupil. JC now spends the equivalent of college tuition per student. We should stop the madness. Especially before things change (and, I have no doubt they will at some point) and the courts get rid of Abbott or heavily rework it.


Its football season, but i'll change the sports analogy to baseball. You always have to question the meaning behind the stats. What do the numbers mean and how do you come up with them and then how should value them. If a player in baseball has a ton of RBIs is he really a good player or just getting lucky because men get on before him? You just want to assume there are just tons of bad teachers.

a few reasons why a student may drop out.

1. They turned 18 and are forced out of the house.
2. Teen Pregnancy. Not completely an education issue.
3. They want to pursue other interests and a high school diploma may not be completely necessary.
4. Influence of outside gangs.

Education is funny because everyone comments on it, but have no experience with it.


Posted on: 2014/10/6 2:23
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