Monroe wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

cousin wrote:
Yes teachers' unions are against merit pay because researchers, educators and policians still do not agree on how to measure a "successful teacher".

As far as "life time security", teachers are no different from police, firefighters, subway workers etc.. Public servants trade the high salaries, christmas bonuses, and 2 hour martini lunches the corporate folks enjoy for a chance to better society while enduring low pay, poor working conditions, and of course, a few, misinformed people like you who will attack at every opportunity.

Nonsense, the private sector people whose salaries mimic teachers don't get 2 hour martini lunches and fat bonuses, do they? Except their pensions are 401Ks, and they end up on Medicaid and Medicare rather than have a Cadillac lifetime health plan paid by others. And they don't get to cash out on unused sick days, (excessive numbers of course given per year), and have them paid out at their final rate rather than the rate they were paid 20, 30 years past.

Just exactly why do you think Christie won such a convincing victory in a blue state? Because the taxpayers finally are waking up. JC isn't far from Detroit-look what happened to the fat pensions and benefits there . . .

What teach has a 2 hour lunch break!?

Cadillac pensions?!

You?re comical.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
I've got friends who teach in big cities as well in cushy suburbs. They all tell me what an easy gig it is.

The only people who have it better are the Port Authority retirees, and the first responders who do actually risk their lives for us and deserve much of what they get, especially those who work in inner cities.

Uh huh? that backs up absolutely nothing you wrote about and it just makes you sort of look like an ass. Reminds me of the ?I?m not a racist. I have black friends!?

Teachers have a far harder job than I and make a vastly lower salary. Sure, I?d love their pension. But the difference in salary allows me to invest more and possibly make more.

Time to bone up on reading comprehension, Pebble. I wrote comparing people whose salary is similar to teachers don't get two hour martini fueled lunches or get huge bonuses. You know, the middle class. They have 401Ks, no generous sick time buyouts, and no Cadillac health plans for life with spousal coverage.

You know, the middle class folk who are paying for the public sector benefits.

I'll ignore the talking point, looney left insults as usual, lol. You're nothing if not predictable.

In any case, after decades and decades of giving away the house the pendulum is arcing back towards fiscal sanity, if only because we don't want to become Detroit.

Monroe wrote:
Time to bone up on reading comprehension, Pebble. I wrote comparing people whose salary is similar to teachers don't get two hour martini fueled lunches or get huge bonuses. You know, the middle class. They have 401Ks, no generous sick time buyouts, and no Cadillac health plans for life with spousal coverage.

Monroe wrote:
You know, the middle class folk who are paying for the public sector benefits.

Monroe wrote:
I'll ignore the talking point, looney left insults as usual, lol. You're nothing if not predictable.

Monroe wrote:
In any case, after decades and decades of giving away the house the pendulum is arcing back towards fiscal sanity, if only because we don't want to become Detroit.

dtjcview wrote:
On ethnicity and special needs skewing the OECD results, where did you see that - or are you just speculating?

MDM wrote:
On ethnicity and special needs skewing the OECD results, where did you see that - or are you just speculating?

Link to database:
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2 ... sa2012highlights_5e_1.asp

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

cousin wrote:
Yes teachers' unions are against merit pay because researchers, educators and policians still do not agree on how to measure a "successful teacher".

As far as "life time security", teachers are no different from police, firefighters, subway workers etc.. Public servants trade the high salaries, christmas bonuses, and 2 hour martini lunches the corporate folks enjoy for a chance to better society while enduring low pay, poor working conditions, and of course, a few, misinformed people like you who will attack at every opportunity.

Nonsense, the private sector people whose salaries mimic teachers don't get 2 hour martini lunches and fat bonuses, do they? Except their pensions are 401Ks, and they end up on Medicaid and Medicare rather than have a Cadillac lifetime health plan paid by others. And they don't get to cash out on unused sick days, (excessive numbers of course given per year), and have them paid out at their final rate rather than the rate they were paid 20, 30 years past.

Just exactly why do you think Christie won such a convincing victory in a blue state? Because the taxpayers finally are waking up. JC isn't far from Detroit-look what happened to the fat pensions and benefits there . . .

What teach has a 2 hour lunch break!?

Cadillac pensions?!

You?re comical.

Quote:

Monroe wrote:
I've got friends who teach in big cities as well in cushy suburbs. They all tell me what an easy gig it is.

The only people who have it better are the Port Authority retirees, and the first responders who do actually risk their lives for us and deserve much of what they get, especially those who work in inner cities.

Uh huh? that backs up absolutely nothing you wrote about and it just makes you sort of look like an ass. Reminds me of the ?I?m not a racist. I have black friends!?

Teachers have a far harder job than I and make a vastly lower salary. Sure, I?d love their pension. But the difference in salary allows me to invest more and possibly make more.

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
Adding to the opposition to this plan:

As to those test scores, comparing US students with those from other countries: The disparities in testing pretty much disappear when you break down and compare on the basis of ethnicity (European decent with Europeans, Japanese Americans with Japanese, etc.).

Extending school hours will not improve education. IMHO, it will hurt education in particular with boys. Schools are already forcing boys to sit still for hours on end. Increasing the hours will only make school even more torturous.

From my own experience:

I went both to public and private school. After a year in a private school, my SAT scores went up so much that I was warned I would likely be investigated for cheating. The private school had less hours dedicated to classroom time than public, we didn't have much (comparatively) in the way of sports or music, and we got out earlier for summer break.

The difference was in the amount of discipline and it was not coeducational, so the teaching could be tailored more towards boys. Plus, there was a lot more physical activity which went a long way to burning off all that excess energy.

The other part of my education, was getting an after school and summer time job. I got more out of those jobs than every extra-educational program I got enrolled in. If it wasn't for what I learned out of school, I would have declined to go to college (I did... graduated with a degree in engineering). This subject has come up coworkers of mine. Many of us had similar experiences.

Adding on to your point... A lot of those foreign test scores do not include special needs, which we do include. Additionally, you can't compare to places like China, which don't have the most honest accounting system in place. The paucity of creativity that is taught in their schools has demonstrable effects in how the government and companies operate.

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

cousin wrote:
Yes teachers' unions are against merit pay because researchers, educators and policians still do not agree on how to measure a "successful teacher".

As far as "life time security", teachers are no different from police, firefighters, subway workers etc.. Public servants trade the high salaries, christmas bonuses, and 2 hour martini lunches the corporate folks enjoy for a chance to better society while enduring low pay, poor working conditions, and of course, a few, misinformed people like you who will attack at every opportunity.

Nonsense, the private sector people whose salaries mimic teachers don't get 2 hour martini lunches and fat bonuses, do they? Except their pensions are 401Ks, and they end up on Medicaid and Medicare rather than have a Cadillac lifetime health plan paid by others. And they don't get to cash out on unused sick days, (excessive numbers of course given per year), and have them paid out at their final rate rather than the rate they were paid 20, 30 years past.

Just exactly why do you think Christie won such a convincing victory in a blue state? Because the taxpayers finally are waking up. JC isn't far from Detroit-look what happened to the fat pensions and benefits there . . .

Monroe wrote:
I've got friends who teach in big cities as well in cushy suburbs. They all tell me what an easy gig it is.

The only people who have it better are the Port Authority retirees, and the first responders who do actually risk their lives for us and deserve much of what they get, especially those who work in inner cities.

cousin wrote:
Yes teachers' unions are against merit pay because researchers, educators and policians still do not agree on how to measure a "successful teacher".

As far as "life time security", teachers are no different from police, firefighters, subway workers etc.. Public servants trade the high salaries, christmas bonuses, and 2 hour martini lunches the corporate folks enjoy for a chance to better society while enduring low pay, poor working conditions, and of course, a few, misinformed people like you who will attack at every opportunity.

Monroe wrote:
OK, I guess Pebble wants to keep the status quo. As far as teachers being stressed-short days, long vacations, endless summers, practically lifetime employment with tiny chances of losing your job after you receive tenure, terrific pension with lifetime health benefits for you and your spouse.

Monroe wrote:
And yes, inner city teachers should be compensated-if they perform. But the teacher union is adamantly against that, aren't they?

Monroe wrote:
But we get a Governor willing to think outside the box (compare to DiBlasio, who wants to eliminate student choice and shutter charters). But DiBlasio is the looney left hero!

Monroe wrote:
It's all about the kids, except when it's about the teachers union.

cousin wrote:
If enough people spoke up about these issues we might be able to right the ship. These self-proclaimed education reformers are really just politicians with a corporate agenda. We need to put the "public" back into public education. Thank you for your service to our children and thank yo ufor speaking up on their behalf. We appreciate it.

MDM wrote:
Adding to the opposition to this plan:

As to those test scores, comparing US students with those from other countries: The disparities in testing pretty much disappear when you break down and compare on the basis of ethnicity (European decent with Europeans, Japanese Americans with Japanese, etc.).

Extending school hours will not improve education. IMHO, it will hurt education in particular with boys. Schools are already forcing boys to sit still for hours on end. Increasing the hours will only make school even more torturous.

From my own experience:

I went both to public and private school. After a year in a private school, my SAT scores went up so much that I was warned I would likely be investigated for cheating. The private school had less hours dedicated to classroom time than public, we didn't have much (comparatively) in the way of sports or music, and we got out earlier for summer break.

The difference was in the amount of discipline and it was not coeducational, so the teaching could be tailored more towards boys. Plus, there was a lot more physical activity which went a long way to burning off all that excess energy.

The other part of my education, was getting an after school and summer time job. I got more out of those jobs than every extra-educational program I got enrolled in. If it wasn't for what I learned out of school, I would have declined to go to college (I did... graduated with a degree in engineering). This subject has come up coworkers of mine. Many of us had similar experiences.

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
How are you going to increase the school day when you can't even support core programs. We already have art on a cart and music being cut.

Art and music aren't core, like the three R's.

Monroe wrote:
No amount of art or music (or math and science) instruction will achieve bright and well educated children without involved, supportive parents.

That's the biggest obstacle in the inner cities, and one that spending more education money can't achieve. Look back through the link I put up and see how even though the inner cities already spent thousands more per pupil per year yet the achievement rates pale in comparison.

HPYC wrote:
A large part of the question that's missing here is what exactly are they going to do with that extra time in school? If the goal is:

- to do more of what they do now, which is wasting time with the latest edu-gimmicks, focusing on everything but fundamental literacy and math skills, and generating piles of homework, or

- to appease parents who just want their kids kept somewhere until they get out of work

Then this is a recipe for a disaster. If, instead, they find ways to bring back art, music, sports, recreation and things like moderated clubs and homework groups; then maybe it's an idea worth considering.

If we stick with what we do now, but just tack on more time, even fewer skilled people will become teachers and our kids will not gain a thing.

Forget about how we pay for it; we need to think about whether it's really a good idea in the first place.

Frank_M wrote:
...
With respect to this topic, the methods used to educate children need a lot more work than the duration of the school day.

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
How are you going to increase the school day when you can't even support core programs. We already have art on a cart and music being cut.

Art and music aren't core, like the three R's.

I?m an engineer by schooling and profession, but it?s not even my opinion?it?s a fact?art and music are fundamental components of education. Art and music may not be directly relevant to most careers, but they are relevant to our understanding of the world, others, and ourselves. Until we can solve the problems of love and death, there's art and music.

With respect to this topic, the methods used to educate children need a lot more work than the duration of the school day.

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

trambone wrote:
How are you going to increase the school day when you can't even support core programs. We already have art on a cart and music being cut.

Art and music aren't core, like the three R's.

hero69 wrote:
even if 65% of school cots is borne by the state, how are counties going to make up for that 35%. and where is christie getting all this money?

i don't mind paying taxes, but honestly, this is a sham proposal that's going noplace. maybe christie ought to be focusing on all the school programs that have been cut. Quality over quantity!

linky wrote:
As a parent of two school-aged children and a veteran teacher who currently works in a school with an extended day, I disagree with Chistie?s proposal. People on this list and Christie himself will probably say that I disagree because I am a lazy, selfish person who is spoiled by ?teacher?s hours?. Of course teachers appreciate getting early, usually so they can catch up on paperwork, but this is not the reason that this teacher opposed an extended school day. I?m against it because I see how terrible it is for children.
My school day ends at 4:15 and, in general, my students are an exhausted, neurotic, miserable mess. Today?s students are under way too much pressure to perform by teachers who are equally pressured and to keep them in school for more time makes it worse. Every teacher on my school?s staff knows that the kids check out by 2:00. Every day at three o?clock I come that much closer to burnout when I have to go against every nurturing bone in my body and force five-year-olds to sit up straight and learn to read and write. At times I have put paper towels on my rug to let a kindergarten student sleep. I would probably get in trouble but I find it abusive to force an exhausted child to try to pay attention to a lesson. There are those who would respond to this and tell me that I have to be more creative in my teaching and engage the students and make my classes a big game. However, those people have not walked in my shoes and do not understand the pressure that I am under to have my students meet the objectives thrust upon me and my students by NCLB (No Child Left Behind) and the Common Core State Standards. They have also probably never heard of a pacing chart or probably have never seen the new lesson plan formats which force me to treat my students like robots.
And then the kids come home and do homework?.way too much homework. In my school, the lucky students get home by 4:45, but the ones who take the bus may get home by 5:30. They have a minimum of an hour?s worth of homework. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that children between the ages of 5 to 12 get 11 to 12 hours of sleep a night. How is a child supposed to eat dinner, spend time with his parents, read for pleasure, and God forbid actually go to the park and then get into bed by 8:00?
Folks, please know that the politicians are killing childhood. NCLB, CCSS and the likes of Christie have no idea what their policies are doing? I have just ordered dozens of stress balls to give to my students because half of them are biting the skin off their fingers. My daughters are miserable because of school stress as well. Every well-respected educator in history has talked about educating the whole child. Why have the politicians thrown this out the window? If it?s to keep up with the Chinese and remain on top, then they can have it because I don?t want to teach, parent, or live in a country whose educational system is abusive to kids. And if people like Chris Christie have their way, that?s what it will become.
If anyone knows a young person who is majoring in education, my advice is to tell them to switch their major to psychology. We are going to have a lot of messed-up, neurotic people on our hands in ten years in need of a good shrink.