Here is a copy of a post some time ago:

So, here is how Philadelphia staffs its fire department:

They have:

1,338 firefighters who make between $40k and $56k
267 lieutenants; $60k to $64k
92 captains; 69k to $72k
48 battalion chiefs; $80k to $84k
8 deputy chiefs; $91k to $96k
1 special operations chief; $80k to $84k
1 executive chief; $108k

The 2010 budget for overtime and unused holiday pay is just under $18 million. All-in expenses for uniformed personnel (all of the people above) is $135 million.

Philadelphia has a population of 1,540,000 and covers an area of 135 square miles. (One uniformed fireman per 878 people or 12.9 per square mile.)

Jersey City has (as of YE 2008):

406 firefighters
150 captains (no lieutenants)
23 battalion chiefs
10 deputy chiefs
1 fire apparatus chief
1 Chief

Jersey city has a population of 242,000 and covers 14.9 square miles. (One uniformed fireman per 409 people or 39.7 per square mile.)

Unfortunately, JC doesn't provide the level of transparency in its budgeting process that other cities do, so we don't know the range of salaries is for any of them, but we do know that the budget for all salaries and wages in the fire department is $66.3 million and total headcount for the department was 670 as of YE 2008. Since wages are budgeted to be up slightly for the current budget year, I'm guessing head count is about the same. That means the average salary/wage for the entire fire department (including dispatchers) is $99,000 and change. In Philadelphia, one person (the chief) made more than $100k before overtime.

This is indeed precisely the point, the ratio of supervisors is way too high in JC vs. other cities. This was pinpointed clearly in the march taxpayer revolts treads as compared to philadelphia also. These positions are draining the city budget. This is a key area in need of reform.

My understanding of the current personnel reduction is that the city has canned a number of temp and entry level when faced with taxpayer revolt but hasn't touched the supervisory positions - if not please post the number and names.

When the tax collection drops, the minimum you can do is freeze salaries with an engagement to raise again when things return to normal and, if the staff refuses, to cut and rebalance the hierarchy. I understand that Hoboken has not left untouched the PD in dealing with its budgetary issues.

For the record my father worked with interpol.

Your "NON-working class" firefighters risking their lives for YOU:

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y_fire_displaces_sev.html

You know the ones......the ones who don't deserve a pension!

The police and firefighters put THEIR lives on the line EVERY DAY--for US!

They are open--and work 24/7.

They deserve pensions.

The LIBRARIANS deserve pensions.

THE LIBRARIES should STAY OPEN...and EXPAND, NOT CUT services!

The $$ is there! Stop letting yourself be fooled that the $ is NOT there.

btw...how many of YOU know that ON 9/10/2001 the evil Donald Rumsfeld himself admitted that over 2 TRILLION dollars was missing from the FEDERAL BUDGET.

Of course the next day was the horrible "9/11" where scores of firefighters were murdered.

Some of the same firefighters that worked at WTC from 9/11 are the same ones YOU want to take away benifits from.



Look....let's ay they "FOUND" 1/2 of only 1 TRILLION dollars.
Divide THAT up into 50 states.


Stop being so brainwashed already!

Pensions ARE the big issue, because the benefit doesn't really "run out" (at least I don't think it does.) And it seems simple math to me (unless I am missing something) that it will be made worse if life expectancy increases continue to outpace retirement age increases, especially with a high number of baby boomers retiring.

So the mayor admits that Jersey City can't afford the contracts and then throws up his hands and says "oh well."

YES!

Please take away ALL raises and public funding from working class people such as Firefighters and Police--and libraries and and education and healthcare.

PLEASE spend MORE taxes on WAR! WAR! WAR!

Spend more of our taxes on BIG FAT PAY RAISES for Politicians who sell us out to FAT DEVELOPERS via tax-breaks and abatements!

NO MORE PUBLIC FUNDED EDUCATION FOR OUR CHILDREN!
NO MORE SOCIAL SECURITY!
NO MORE MEDIACRE!

YES to ENDLESS WARS!
YES to BILLIONS to other "best friend' naations!

THANKS to ALL who SUPPORTed the WAR on "TERROR"

Enjoy your coming misery!

?Simply too expensive?

State recommends that raises for police, fire officers be renegotiated

by Ricardo Kaulessar
Reporter Staff Writer

?While I believe our police officers and firefighters deserve every penny, I understand that these salary increases are high in light of our current economic and budgetary situation,? said Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy last week in response to questions from the media regarding the city?s stance on the contracts negotiated between the city?s fire and police unions and city officials.

The new contracts for the members of both unions offer 3 percent retroactive raises for 2009, then raises of 3.3 percent for 2010, 3.4 percent for 2011 and 3.5 percent in 2012.

These contracts were negotiated with the condition that both unions would choose a new health care coverage plan that would save the city over $1 million a year, because the employees will have to contribute money to the plan.

_____________

?This is not one of those rich contracts.? ? Jerry DiCicco, president of the POBA
________


The contracts have been negotiated since January 2009, but recently, Gov. Christopher Christie has cut state funding to most towns in New Jersey, leaving them to re-examine their contracts and other spending ? especially contracts on which they had not yet voted.

The City Council withdrew the police and fire contracts from the agenda of its March 10 meeting so that the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs (DCA) could review them. Now the DCA has weighed in on the contracts, and the news for police and firefighters is not good.

In a March 31 letter to Mayor Healy and the City Council, Marc Pfeiffer, acting director of the state DCA?s Division of Local Government Services, said the contracts were ?simply too expensive.? He said the 13 percent pay raise over four years is ?unaffordable? for the city and the taxpayers. He recommended the contracts be amended for more savings before they are approved.

?While it may be ?comparable? and consistent with recent settlements of other entities in the area, this contract is simply too expensive and we recommend that the parties go back to the table and negotiate lower increases that are consistent with the city?s fiscal condition,? Pfeiffer said in the letter.

While Pfeiffer judged the choice of the new health care coverage plan positive for lowering costs, he said that the salary increases will erase those savings.

Meanwhile, Healy?s statement said that it would be up to the City Council to decide whether to ratify the contracts. The state?s consent is not needed before granting approval, but the city did allow for a review of both of them since Jersey City was granted $14 million in special state aid earlier this year.

The contracts are scheduled to be back in front of the City Council at its next meeting on Wednesday.

Police: Reasons it?s justified

The unions involved are the Jersey City Police Officers Benevolent Association (POBA) and the International Fire Fighters Association, Local 1066.

Representatives from Local 1066 did not return phone calls to their office for comment, but Jerry DiCicco, president of the POBA, a 700-member union, commented last week.

DiCicco defended the contract as ?far ahead of the curve? in terms of achieving the kind of health care savings the state has asked for from public sector unions. Specifically, effective July 1, there will be a new co-payment, for mail order prescription drugs costing $1,000 or more, of $50 per 30-day supply, where previously there was no co-payment.

For retail prescriptions costing $1,000 or more, the co-pay will cost individuals $100 instead of the current $20.

DiCicco also called the contract ?reasonable? when compared to the contracts being sought by Hudson County police, police in Bergen County towns, and even Jersey City teachers, who are seeking a 4-plus percent raise each year for four years.

He also said the 500,000 calls for service that the police answer every year justify the contract, which has been pending since the last one expired Dec. 31, 2008.

?When you look at this contract, look though these things, this is not one of those rich contracts,? DiCicco said.

As of September 2009, without factoring in the increases called for in the current contract, a first-year Jersey City police officer earns $46,903. By year seven, that salary goes up to $83,965. If an officer gets to a 25th year of service, they can make $93,844.

Ricardo Kaulessar can be reached at rkaulessar@hudsonreporter.com

And except for Fulop, the corrupt council will do whatever corrupt Healy wants.

the arbitration process has a bias in favor of the fire and police unions, so there is good reason to avoid it.

read more here - http://onejerseycity.org/?p=804

Quote:

Took the words out of my move, too bad the mayor is too retarded/corrupt to understand this.

Police and Firefighters that risk their life for our safety deserve a good wage. Teachers that educate the future of our society also deserve a good wage. HOWEVER right now given the cities' dire financial situation and the hurting economy nobody should be getting a pay raise IMHO. All the wasteful expenditures absolutely have to go! Many folks have had to get creative and learn to get by with diminished financial resources. ( I work hard and deserve a new automobile but that is not happening anytime soon because I can't afford it right now.) The city has to ethically learn how to do the same thing. It really is that simple.

Retroactive pay increase back to last year. This is BS. They all have it waaay too good. These PUBLIC SERVANTS should get pensions after 35 years, with no one making over $80k..ever. Pensions shoud be at $40k max. This country, county and town are all going bankrupt, b/c of over promising.

By Melissa Hayes/The Jersey Journal
April 08, 2010, 2:00PM

The state is taking issue with contracts the City of Jersey City recently negotiated with its fire and police unions calling them "simply too expensive."

The City Council was set to vote on the agreements March 10, when the state Department of Community Affairs requested information on the contracts.

The city does not need state approval before signing off on the contracts, but in light of receiving millions in Special Municipal aid from the state the city agreed to the review.

Both contracts offer 3 percent retroactive raises for 2009, 3.3 percent in 2010, 3.4 percent in 2011 and 3.5 percent in 2012, in exchange for changes to the health care coverage that would save the city about $1 million.

In a March 31 letter, Marc Pfeiffer, acting director of the state DCA's Division of Local Government Services, said it was encouraging, "that the parties reached a cost-saving agreement with changes to its outdated, inefficient and expensive health care policy."

But Pfeiffer went on to say the raises, which amount to 13 percent over the life of the contract, "disregards the ability of the employer and, by extension, the taxpayer to pay for it."

"While it may be 'comparable' and consistent with recent settlements of other entities in the area, this contract is simply too expensive and we recommend that the parties go back to the table and negotiate lower increases that are consistent with the city's fiscal condition," he said.

But Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy said in a response letter to Pfeiffer that the unions were not willing to renegotiate the terms and that he will send them to the City Council for a vote, unchanged.

"While I believe our police officers and firefighters deserve every penny, I understand that these salary increases are high in light of our current economic and budgetary situation," Healy said in a statement yesterday.

"However, these agreements also save the city $1 million annually in healthcare givebacks and there is a risk of higher awards if we go to binding arbitration," Healy added. "It will now be up to the City Council to decide whether to approve these contracts."

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I couldn't agree more.

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The same could be said for permenant civil service jobs where those employees cannot be fired.

Union's are useless - better put - antiquated. What have unions done in the past 50 years that make them equal contributors in todays work environment?? How have they improved themselves to be aligned with today?

Unions have no risk associated with non-performance.

Public service jobs should be paid at market - if a community is unhappy with performance and link the problem to pay, then the community has the right to release more funds for improvement.

Good math...

That's why we shouldn't be paying these jokers and power abusers the type of salaries that are usually reserve for the people that put forth the effort and the money for an education. The salaries wouldn't be such a big problem if the pension and the medical benefit systems are not abused by millions in the system. The public employee system and the entitlement programs (social security, medicare, etc) are such a joke now a days that it won't last us any more than 5 years before everything collapse. First, it was the internet bubble, then, the real estate bubble, and now the deficit bubble and the government bubble. How long did these bubble usually last? I'll say give it another several years and we collapse as a country then we can talk about a civil war between the government/government employees and the private sector/private sector employees. Ultimately, whenever the balance is not kept, there will be pain. This time, it's not just money at stake. I'm glad I'll be out of this city in couple of months. But in the total picture, it'll be "out of the frying pan, into the fire" for me as the Obama administration continue to think expansion of government is good for everyone.

As for someone accusing anyone who doesn't agree with his/her opinion as a democrat or republican, wake up. I voted for Obama hoping for a change but what I got was more of the change in the wrong direction. This is not a Dem or Rep issue, this is a general public issue that need to be addressed. That's why we need a third or fourth party that can actually compete in order to keep the two parties honest.

An article on Jersey City's debt situation:
http://www.jerseycityindependent.com/ ... atings-tell-a-grim-story/

Why should we shed tears if the JCPD worked without a contract last year and why should anyone expect a raise in this environment? Traditionally, arguing against the cops is politically dangerous and our failed administration is certainly not up to the task. But it must start somewhere - why not here and now?

End accumulated sick pay. End accumulated vacation pay. Reform medical benefits. No raises when the city is laying off people. Limit the number of sick days. And if you are "sick" you damn well better not be moonlighting. Require a greater contribution into the retirement system. Streamline the org chart and get more of the 900- some force out on the streets patrolling. There are obvious changes that need to be made - except currently there is a leadership void to do anything about it.

Besides the 3.5 million issue, There are many 100K+ JCPD members, so your 'JCPD doesn't make that much' argument is not backed by facts as far as I can tell. Check out the database and see for yourself, it's public record:

http://php.app.com/NJpublicemployees/search.php
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=data

NJ public employees are now nearly making twice the private sector employees. (not including generous benefits)

Hopefully membership realizes that the situation they are in is actually pretty good compared to the average citizens. Let's not become Detroit and kill the goose that laid the golden egg...

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LOL, it's 3.5 million not 350k!!!!

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You should have also said 650,000

Anyway, I thought this was interesting and dug for more info...
If you assume a linear increase in salary, according to the JCPD website the average salary over 25 years will be around 70k. 0.08*70k*25 = 140,000 total pension contribution for a full career. Assume you start at 21 and finish at 46. You get 65% of final salary (94k) which is 61k a year. Average lifespan is 78 years, so 32 years times 61k is 1.95 million. I don't know how any normal private sector employee can retire at 46 and be set for a very comfortable life. What wasn't also mentioned is the lifetime medical benefits.

JCLAW, I missed one point , now lets go with your theory about the union and the mayor, the last time i checked you are only allowed to cast one vote and lets presume that all 915 police officer's and supervisors reside in Jersey City ( most don't) voted (like sheep) for whoever the union endorsed, where do you suppose the majority of the votes came from?? Could it be you the tax payer?Just a thought.

JCLAW, now I'll respond to your absurdities 1) Your boss pays your salary and you are beholden to him and he pays you out of his own money, Well where do you think that money comes from? Each and every police officer is beholden to their boss ultimately the mayor who is the voice of the taxpayer and was elected by the taxpayer whether you agree or not.2) I am very familiar with the PILOT(Payment in Lieu Of Taxes) program while the pilot and abatement program were neccessary 20-25 years ago inorder to attract buisness to the area they are certainly not neccessary currently for the multi million dollar developer's who negotiate a sweetheart deal for far less then fair market value and in some cases like Canco Lofts who agree to one deal a couple of years ago only to come back to the negotiating table this year to recieve an even sweeter deal .Who benefitted from that deal ? Now for your absurd statement about the pension you stated that each officer pays approximately 60,000 over their career yet collects a million dollars from the pension.REALLY.....Your math skills are not what they should be.First off each officer contributes 8% percent of their salary to the pension and over thirty years that is a lot more then 60,000. Now when the officer retires he only collects until he dies then his pension reverts back to the pension. Now I am going to see if i can come up with that million dollar figure if a police officer making 100,00 per year (JCPD doesn't make that much) retires at age 50 after thirty years and lives to be 100 yrs old he would collect 70,000 for fifty years which comes out to be 350,000. well thats only 750,00 short of the million that YOU stated he would collect. Now I dont hear you complaining about the State Senators and assemblymen and superior court judges who contribute nothing to the pension yet collect 70 % percent of their salary after 10 years .,

It's ridiculous to say that's a 'Republican' take on things. Are Democrats somehow not allowed to be opposed to political inside deals, corruption and flagrant misuse of the public's funds ? ? ? If so I guess our democracy is over. Half of the country, according to you, likes their politicians in someones pocket and on the take.

In fact, this info comes from JC's most 'progressive' news source, the Independent:

"- Sparks are flying between Ward E councilman Steven Fulop and former mayor Gerry McCann. Earlier this week, Fulop issued a release chastising the Healy administration for McCann?s new position as an inspector with the Jersey City Incinerator Authority, claiming it was payback for McCann ?delivering? Sean Connors to the Healy organization. Connors was once seen as a threat to Ward D councilman Bill Gaughan, but last year he opted to run for school board instead; Connors was endorsed by Healy and Gaughan, won a seat on the board, and in turn endorsed the Healy team during the municipal election. (Connors, like Fulop, is also reportedly interested in the mayor?s office in 2013.) McCann, a convicted felon who went to federal prison in the 90s for bank fraud, swung back, promising to sue Fulop so aggressively that it will put an end to his higher office aspirations. Meanwhile, state Sen. Sandra Cunningham says she?s OK with McCann?s new job. "

@ JC344

There are so many absurdities in your posting I need to take them one at a time:

JCLAW, I realize that the City's Money is not monoply money. I too am a taxpayer as well ,and I actually am tired of the same old saying " I pay your salary" REALLY? then I guess I pay into my salary as well since I am a city taxpayer(maybe I should get a rebate).If you work in the private sector do you pay into your salary as well? (just using your logic)

My boss pays my salary and I am beholden to my boss who uses his own money. The taxpayers pay yours yet you seem to think your boss is 'the City' as if that lazy drunk mayor pays you from his personal funds.

If you really looked at the bigger picture the drain on the taxpayers is the dual job holding of the politicians, the tax abatements that were given to the Downtown buisnesses years ago that are now coming due at a far less then the actual appraised values.

Oh no that old 'abatement' canard won't work on me. As someone who actually understands them I can tell you that without the PILOT deals the tax revenue would be $100mm lower and would require a 200% tax increase on general property taxes to cover the missing revenue.

As far as the dual job holding - this is a situation which is enabled by the local public employees Unions such as yours which allow their pet politicians to continue this practice. Taxpayers WISH we could end this but we can't electioneer and fund raise like you guys. Oh well.

The REAL bigger picture isn't your salary or raise. It's the fact that you all pay about $60,000 of your career earnings into your pension and receive over $1,000,000 in long term pension and health care benefits for LIFE. There is no parallel to this in the private sector. It's a plain scam on hapless taxpayers perpetrated by a thuggish Union. So stop pretending that anyone begrudges your salaries and stop comparing them to the private sector. Unions have been running this pension scam on the rest of us for decades and now the chickens have returned home to roost. MOST of the taxpayers' expenses are paying for these bloated pension benefits for police who now live in Florida. After that there is nothing left save for a few bucks to pay some idiot drunken politician that your Union owns for the three jobs and three pensions HE has.


If you are successful the City Council will vote against the contract

That's a laugh. The City Council is beholden to your Union because it participates in electioneering on its behalf and the administration is rife with police political featherbedders (eg. Sean Connors) and vice versa. Taxpayers have no hope of disturbing the mutual circular relationship between the Union and its pet politicians.

To jc344 :

A few points :

Police and firemen aren't the only people who work on holidays and off hours.

Most police and fire don't even live in Jersey City.

If the police and fire jobs are so tough, why are so many clamoring to get into them ?

If I were to refrain from commenting/criticizing about anyone whose life I had never lived or job I had never done, I just as well allow any person or group to ride roughshod right over me.

The sad fact is police and fire not only have this warped sense of entitlement to all they demand but a victim's mentality when they don't get it.

The police can have their new contract. The City just can't afford it. Nobody wants to take cuts in wages. That is understandable. But then people will move out of Jersey City because the taxes are simply unaffordable.

JCLAW, I realize that the City's Money is not monoply money. I too am a taxpayer as well ,and I actually am tired of the same old saying " I pay your salary" REALLY? then I guess I pay into my salary as well since I am a city taxpayer(maybe I should get a rebate).If you work in the private sector do you pay into your salary as well? (just using your logic) The contract that was negotiated sved the City taxpayers(you) a considerable amount of money.If you really looked at the bigger picture the drain on the taxpayers is the dual job holding of the politicians, the tax abatements that were given to the Downtown buisnesses years ago that are now coming due at a far less then the actual appraised values.If you think that the raise we recieved is truly a drain on the city coffers then I can only suggest that you attend the next council meeting and voice your opinion. If you are successful the City Council will vote against the contract and more then likely the Police Department will go into arbitration ,thereby costing the city and you the taxpayer alot more money.I would say in lehgal fees alone your looking at at least a million dollars and the police will probably come out with the same amount of a raise, but more then likely the police would retain the traditional healthcare that they gave up, thereby not saving the city and the taxpayer (you) $650,000. If you think I am wrong , feel free to check out the arbitration rulings over the past year on the perc website.

Charon, you stated that your tired of hearing from police officer's and firefighters saying you should've filled out an application, and its time the police and fire department make sacrifices. Well the Police and Firefighters do make sacrifices. I bet on Christmas Morning your always there to see your children open their gifts. I bet you were able to tuck your children in to bed everynight and tell them goodnight, been to all of there school events,their little league games etc etc. I've been on both sides of the fence, I've worked in the private sector and yes I am currently a Police Officer, and I can tell you for a fact that I was making alot more money working in the private sector.Yes some of the benefits are better, but not all. Working in the private sector I was able to spend all the holidays with family and friends, I didn't have restrictions on vacation time that I currently have. I didn't have to work weekends and I also didn't have to work shift work. The bottom line is we all make sacrifices , some just make different ones. The bottom line is before you comment(criticize)a contract that was more then fair to the City you should actually walk in our shoes.