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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

MDM wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:

This is a fun story, but only a story.

If you truly believe that the minimum wage employees, which do not even make up a penny per gallon, are going to cause a decrease in price, you are a fool.


Got any data to back up that labor "does not even make up a penny per gallon"?

The numbers bantered around is that labor makes up around $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon. So lets look at some data to see if those numbers are in the realm of reality:

Total number of gas attendants employed in NJ (2013): 10,470. {Source: Rutgers NJ Data Bank)

Average annual salary: $18,880 {Rutgers NJ Data Bank}

Total transportation fuel sold in NJ (2013): 3,981,726,000 gallons {Energy Information Admin assumes 42 gal per bbl}

Average Price per gallon (2013): $3.33 {calculated from data from EIA}

Now salary is not the wage cost. Salary does not include employer paid benefits, taxes, and other costs such as:

Employer paid social security / Medicare
Unemployment (higher cost than the employee portion)
State disability
Family leave
Workman's Comp
Liability insurance
Health insurance (if offered)


Typically all the above add about $0.40 for every dollar 'paid' to the employee. Without health insurance, you are probably looking at $0.30 added per every dollar paid (low tax states, it might be closer to $0.25).

So that gives a wage cost of $24,544 per pump jockey. This translates into a total cost in 2013 of $265,975,680, paid for by people filling up in NJ to cover full service. This translates into about $0.065 per gallon.

Therefor an estimate of $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon is reasonable and is a lot higher than a 'less than a penny'.

So what about the $0.15 to $0.30 per gallon difference in neighboring states between self and full serve? The reason is self-serve moves a lot more gasoline. This is from a study done back in 1950 when self-service was first coming into being:{Source: American Society of Planning Officials}

The chief advantage offered by the self-service station is an economic one ? gasoline prices have been reduced in some areas from 4 to 5 cents per gallon, or about 20 percent. The differential between prices offered by the self-serve and the conventional station is not as great where price wars have been initiated. The self-serve depends on volume: the conventional station averages around 14,000 to 22,000 gallons per month, while the average self-serve pumps about 150,000 gallons per month, with some stations pumping over a half million gallons in the same period. {emphasis mine}

This makes sense as a Sam's Club or Wawa that would have say 30 pumps would have 30 people pumping vs. a couple of guys running around to service the cars. More fuel means better wholesale purchase rates and the ability to make money on even tighter margins. So say you can move about 6x to 8x as much fuel with self-serve vs. full serve. So the $0.065 difference is really closer to $0.40 to $0.50 per gallon when accounting for the volume difference.

Plus there is the value of time. When using self serve with a swipe card function, I can be fueled and going in under 5 minutes. I have waited 15+ sometimes when the stations are really busy with full serve.


As for the 'fun story', the man's name who introduced self-serve in NJ was named Irving Reingold. He sued to have the self-serve ban lifted. You can read about him here:

and the legal case reference here:

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jerse ... urt/1951/6-n-j-182-0.html

You make the assumption that these individuals aren't just paid cash under the table, which many of them are. I know people that have pumped gas as a part time job and it's a few bucks under the table to stand there.

Secondly, your comparison of self versus full service station leaves out the details regarding the comparison...

Thirdly, I appreciate the links. It's a fun story.

Lastly, none of this means that the price of gasoline will lower should the stations go operatorless.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 19:45
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

Pebble wrote:

This is a fun story, but only a story.

If you truly believe that the minimum wage employees, which do not even make up a penny per gallon, are going to cause a decrease in price, you are a fool.


Got any data to back up that labor "does not even make up a penny per gallon"?

The numbers bantered around is that labor makes up around $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon. So lets look at some data to see if those numbers are in the realm of reality:

Total number of gas attendants employed in NJ (2013): 10,470. {Source: Rutgers NJ Data Bank)

Average annual salary: $18,880 {Rutgers NJ Data Bank}

Total transportation fuel sold in NJ (2013): 3,981,726,000 gallons {Energy Information Admin assumes 42 gal per bbl}

Average Price per gallon (2013): $3.33 {calculated from data from EIA}

Now salary is not the wage cost. Salary does not include employer paid benefits, taxes, and other costs such as:

Employer paid social security / Medicare
Unemployment (higher cost than the employee portion)
State disability
Family leave
Workman's Comp
Liability insurance
Health insurance (if offered)


Typically all the above add about $0.40 for every dollar 'paid' to the employee. Without health insurance, you are probably looking at $0.30 added per every dollar paid (low tax states, it might be closer to $0.25).

So that gives a wage cost of $24,544 per pump jockey. This translates into a total cost in 2013 of $265,975,680, paid for by people filling up in NJ to cover full service. This translates into about $0.065 per gallon.

Therefor an estimate of $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon is reasonable and is a lot higher than a 'less than a penny'.

So what about the $0.15 to $0.30 per gallon difference in neighboring states between self and full serve? The reason is self-serve moves a lot more gasoline. This is from a study done back in 1950 when self-service was first coming into being:{Source: American Society of Planning Officials}

The chief advantage offered by the self-service station is an economic one ? gasoline prices have been reduced in some areas from 4 to 5 cents per gallon, or about 20 percent. The differential between prices offered by the self-serve and the conventional station is not as great where price wars have been initiated. The self-serve depends on volume: the conventional station averages around 14,000 to 22,000 gallons per month, while the average self-serve pumps about 150,000 gallons per month, with some stations pumping over a half million gallons in the same period. {emphasis mine}

This makes sense as a Sam's Club or Wawa that would have say 30 pumps would have 30 people pumping vs. a couple of guys running around to service the cars. More fuel means better wholesale purchase rates and the ability to make money on even tighter margins. So say you can move about 6x to 8x as much fuel with self-serve vs. full serve. So the $0.065 difference is really closer to $0.40 to $0.50 per gallon when accounting for the volume difference.

Plus there is the value of time. When using self serve with a swipe card function, I can be fueled and going in under 5 minutes. I have waited 15+ sometimes when the stations are really busy with full serve.


As for the 'fun story', the man's name who introduced self-serve in NJ was named Irving Reingold. He sued to have the self-serve ban lifted. You can read about him here:

and the legal case reference here:

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jerse ... urt/1951/6-n-j-182-0.html

Posted on: 2015/5/27 19:28
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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MidwestTransplant wrote:
Two points:

1) If both Gas Station A and Gas Station B now have reduced labor costs, unless they're colluding on price, one of the two will almost certainly reduce prices to win more business. The other will reduce prices to attempt to win back that business.

2) If one supports the full service mandate to maintain make-work jobs, how can one support ATMs, which reduce the need for bank tellers? Are they somehow different animals?

Point 1: How do you reduce the price per gallon when the cost of the attendant is so low as to only register in fractions of a cent per gallon? Considering that there really isn't an example where prices have dropped when labor has been reduced, I have no idea why anyone would continue putting this idea forward.

Point 2: Your comparison is overly simple and not on point. For one, there is no exchange of funds in order to utilize the service if you use your own bank. For two, the ATM enables you to utilize a service that would otherwise be unavailable, withdrawing funds at a foreign bank.

Posted on: 2015/5/27 15:21
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Two points:

1) If both Gas Station A and Gas Station B now have reduced labor costs, unless they're colluding on price, one of the two will almost certainly reduce prices to win more business. The other will reduce prices to attempt to win back that business.

2) If one supports the full service mandate to maintain make-work jobs, how can one support ATMs, which reduce the need for bank tellers? Are they somehow different animals?

Posted on: 2015/5/26 23:24
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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why couldn't they just come up with leaving everything the same but include an option for the customer to self serve!?

I too dislike when they top off, and they hardly clean your windshield anymore =(

Posted on: 2015/5/26 19:12
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Posted on: 2015/5/26 19:09
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Adonis wrote:
Honestly, in my mind, I DON'T believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor. At least not in a dollar-for-dollar fashion. But are you so dumb that you think we, meaning the gas purchasing public, ARE NOT paying for that unnecessary labor right now? Because that would be the real idiotic position. It stands to reason that if the cost of the wasteful labor goes away then we, the gas purchasing public, would at least have our money funneled to more worthwhile functions.

I just want to point out a couple of things?
1. You are writing contradictory statements here:
Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Honestly, in my mind, I DON'T believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor.

Quote:

Adonis wrote:
It stands to reason that if the cost of the wasteful labor goes away then we, the gas purchasing public, would at least have our money funneled to more worthwhile functions.

Either you recognize that the cost of gas will not go down or you are arguing that the cost of gasoline will go down. You don?t get to make an argument this contradictory and have anyone take it seriously.

Second, the labor cost at the pump is not greater than minimum wage. With the volume of fuel used each day, that labor cost comes out to pennies per purchase.

Lastly, I?ll reiterate the simple fact: If you are advocating the law change all you are really advocating for is a lowering of service for the same exact price. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Quote:

MDM wrote:
Comparing full service gas price with NJ with other states is apples to oranges. NJ has a relatively low gas tax (I think we are the 2nd lowest in the 50 states). For example, New York state taxes gasoline about $0.30 per gallon more.

If you want to see what the labor adds to the price of gas, compare the self-serve vs. full serve price at a gas station say in NY or PA.

Gasoline retail has razor thin margins of about 2.5%. If self-serve was allowed, prices would go down because gas is a very competitive business. The first self serve station opened in NJ (back in the late '40s), pricing itself a few cents less per gallon if you pumped your own gas.

There was an unwritten agreement with all the gas stations that the price would be fixed at a certain rate. The self-serve station owner pissed off the cartel (to the point where the self-serve station was vandalized). The cartel then lobbied the state to ban self-serve. This is the reason we have the ban.. not to protect the consumer but to protect the profit margins of the gas station operators.

This is a fun story, but only a story.

If you truly believe that the minimum wage employees, which do not even make up a penny per gallon, are going to cause a decrease in price, you are a fool.

Posted on: 2015/5/26 18:59
Dos A Cero
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Comparing full service gas price with NJ with other states is apples to oranges. NJ has a relatively low gas tax (I think we are the 2nd lowest in the 50 states). For example, New York state taxes gasoline about $0.30 per gallon more.

If you want to see what the labor adds to the price of gas, compare the self-serve vs. full serve price at a gas station say in NY or PA.

Gasoline retail has razor thin margins of about 2.5%. If self-serve was allowed, prices would go down because gas is a very competitive business. The first self serve station opened in NJ (back in the late '40s), pricing itself a few cents less per gallon if you pumped your own gas.

There was an unwritten agreement with all the gas stations that the price would be fixed at a certain rate. The self-serve station owner pissed off the cartel (to the point where the self-serve station was vandalized). The cartel then lobbied the state to ban self-serve. This is the reason we have the ban.. not to protect the consumer but to protect the profit margins of the gas station operators.

Posted on: 2015/5/26 16:15
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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I recall reading years ago one reason we had no self serve was that NJ AAA insisted that the price be rolled back if self serve was implemented and the station owners refused.

Posted on: 2015/5/26 16:08
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...


Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

As someone that's spent time traveling this country, we are rather fortunate that on the days when the weather is at its worst, we can sit comfortably in a warm car while someone else handles the labor.

On top of this our gas is still cheaper than just about anywhere.

Honestly, in your mind, do you believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor? If you do, then you are the dumbest person on the planet. Essentially, you are advocating for a reduction in service for the same price. I cannot think of anything more absurd.


Honestly, in my mind, I DON'T believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor. At least not in a dollar-for-dollar fashion. But are you so dumb that you think we, meaning the gas purchasing public, ARE NOT paying for that unnecessary labor right now? Because that would be the real idiotic position. It stands to reason that if the cost of the wasteful labor goes away then we, the gas purchasing public, would at least have our money funneled to more worthwhile functions.

Posted on: 2015/5/26 15:18
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Frinjc wrote:
+1 for changing the law. Let the suburbanites have some exercise! Besides, the money saved can easily be recaptured in a much needed increase in fuel tax to rebuild our roads - and that my friends is what our local economy needs.

I see... You're one of those silly people that think the price of gas would decrease when gas stations pay less for labor.

Posted on: 2015/5/26 14:25
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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+1 for changing the law. Let the suburbanites have some exercise! Besides, the money saved can easily be recaptured in a much needed increase in fuel tax to rebuild our roads - and that my friends is what our local economy needs.

Posted on: 2015/5/25 0:40
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...


Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.


I agree, I could get out of the station a minimum of 2 minutes faster if I was pumping my own gas (waiting for them to come in the first place, waiting fro them to come back to finish the sale). Also, not that my car is all that, but I hate when they drip gas down the car, top off gas, etc.

Posted on: 2015/5/24 23:25
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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I'm an issue guy, not a party guy. In this case Sweeney is right, as he is in opposing both parties in the LSP deal. Even a GED guy can be right once in a while! And I gave props on another site to Fulop for getting the 4th LSP party set up again.

Posted on: 2015/5/22 21:42
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Monroe wrote:
In a rare coming of the minds Pebs and I are in agreement on this-and I'm annoyed at Declan trying to get this up for a vote, especially since he was so instrumental in shutting down Whizzy's red light camera thieving scam.

Hey now! We agree on Sweeney! You just need to come around on Christie...

Posted on: 2015/5/22 21:33
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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In a rare coming of the minds Pebs and I are in agreement on this-and I'm annoyed at Declan trying to get this up for a vote, especially since he was so instrumental in shutting down Whizzy's red light camera thieving scam.

Posted on: 2015/5/22 21:11
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...


Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

As someone that's spent time traveling this country, we are rather fortunate that on the days when the weather is at its worst, we can sit comfortably in a warm car while someone else handles the labor.

On top of this our gas is still cheaper than just about anywhere.

Honestly, in your mind, do you believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor? If you do, then you are the dumbest person on the planet. Essentially, you are advocating for a reduction in service for the same price. I cannot think of anything more absurd.

Posted on: 2015/5/22 21:05
Dos A Cero
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...


Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

Posted on: 2015/5/22 14:24
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...

Posted on: 2015/5/22 13:53
Dos A Cero
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants


I hate it! :(

Posted on: 2015/5/21 18:09
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Re: NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".
i like having gas station attendants

Posted on: 2015/5/20 17:46
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NJ exceptionalism: Self-serve gas not happening, N.J. senate president says
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http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

Posted on: 2015/5/20 14:58
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