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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Pebble wrote:
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borisp wrote:
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Pebble wrote:

Pay the person to work or pay the person less money, giving a cut to someone else, and then have that person collect welfare.

Some people understand complexities in economics. Others try to deliver one liners...


I have a question that I am sure you will be able to answer. What with your most perfect understanding of the complexities in economics. Why was East Germany so much more poor than the West? Same people. Same climate. Same history. Similar location. What's up with that?

Where did I claim to have a "perfect understanding" of anything? I only point out that the world isn't black and white. There is a heavy amount of gray in the middle.


No, not really. There is nothing gray about economy of the socialism. It's leads to an economic disaster. The more socialistic society is, the faster it tanks.

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Pebble wrote:I have no idea what your question, with all its vagaries, has to do with the price of tea in China.

Well, I assumed... I thought you were looking down on the people with one-liners because you actually had some of that understanding you advertised. I was wrong.

Posted on: 2015/3/3 5:10
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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When the pension program was created I don't think they anticipated the insane rise in health care costs, not to mention that public employee health care costs are 50% higher than in the private sector. Besides the under (or non) contributing of previous administrations this is one of the drivers that is forcing changes to pension funding in the future.

Posted on: 2015/2/25 15:14
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:

Pay the person to work or pay the person less money, giving a cut to someone else, and then have that person collect welfare.

Some people understand complexities in economics. Others try to deliver one liners...


I have a question that I am sure you will be able to answer. What with your most perfect understanding of the complexities in economics. Why was East Germany so much more poor than the West? Same people. Same climate. Same history. Similar location. What's up with that?

Where did I claim to have a "perfect understanding" of anything? I only point out that the world isn't black and white. There is a heavy amount of gray in the middle.

I have no idea what your question, with all its vagaries, has to do with the price of tea in China.

Posted on: 2015/2/25 13:10
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Pebble wrote:

Pay the person to work or pay the person less money, giving a cut to someone else, and then have that person collect welfare.

Some people understand complexities in economics. Others try to deliver one liners...


I have a question that I am sure you will be able to answer. What with your most perfect understanding of the complexities in economics. Why was East Germany so much more poor than the West? Same people. Same climate. Same history. Similar location. What's up with that?

Posted on: 2015/2/25 6:28
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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JCMan8 wrote:
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Pebble wrote:

Or we can look at it as providing someone a pension because you're paying them less than market rates for the jobs that they are doing...

The parks worker that was a public employee has been laid off. Thousands were shaved off his salary as he was rehired by the private firm that now has the contract to maintain the grass. There is no pension this time.


I don't think you understand what "market rates" mean.

That's fine. Stick with that. When the divide between the haves and have-nots grows further, you can keep asking why.

The world needs ditch diggers. The world also needs ditch diggers to be able to put food on the table of their families. If they can't afford to do so, where do you think they turn?

Pay the person to work or pay the person less money, giving a cut to someone else, and then have that person collect welfare.

Some people understand complexities in economics. Others try to deliver one liners...

Posted on: 2015/2/24 21:59
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Pebble wrote:

Or we can look at it as providing someone a pension because you're paying them less than market rates for the jobs that they are doing...

The parks worker that was a public employee has been laid off. Thousands were shaved off his salary as he was rehired by the private firm that now has the contract to maintain the grass. There is no pension this time.


I don't think you understand what "market rates" mean.

Posted on: 2015/2/24 14:03
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Christie decries pension ruling as 'liberal judicial activism'
TRENTON ? Gov. Chris Christie today lashed out against a state judge who ruled the governor violated the contractual rights of public workers by cutting $1.57 billion from pension payments in New Jersey's current budget.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... ctivi.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Hooray for Judge Jacobson !!!


One generation of citizens conspires with the public workers that they will pay them half of their compensation, offloading another half of the payment on the next generation of taxpayers. On the people who were too young to vote against this schema, and never made any commitment to it.

There are two ways out of a financial "pyramid". Either we will refuse to buy in, or it will run its course and bury the last generation stupid enough to pay.

Is that what you are cheering? That we will be that stupid last generation?


Or we can look at it as providing someone a pension because you're paying them less than market rates for the jobs that they are doing...

It really doesn't matter at this point. The conservatives have won this argument. The parks worker that was a public employee has been laid off. Thousands were shaved off his salary as he was rehired by the private firm that now has the contract to maintain the grass. There is no pension this time. It is just one person making less money than before to do the same job while the contracting company's owner, most likely wealthy and politically connected, gets a cut of the guy's wages. This is the new American way!

Posted on: 2015/2/24 13:39
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Rorschach wrote:
Christie decries pension ruling as 'liberal judicial activism'
TRENTON ? Gov. Chris Christie today lashed out against a state judge who ruled the governor violated the contractual rights of public workers by cutting $1.57 billion from pension payments in New Jersey's current budget.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... ctivi.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Hooray for Judge Jacobson !!!


One generation of citizens conspires with the public workers that they will pay them half of their compensation, offloading another half of the payment on the next generation of taxpayers. On the people who were too young to vote against this schema, and never made any commitment to it.

There are two ways out of a financial "pyramid". Either we will refuse to buy in, or it will run its course and bury the last generation stupid enough to pay.

Is that what you are cheering? That we will be that stupid last generation?


Posted on: 2015/2/24 12:34
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Christie decries pension ruling as 'liberal judicial activism'

TRENTON ? Gov. Chris Christie today lashed out against a state judge who ruled the governor violated the contractual rights of public workers by cutting $1.57 billion from pension payments in New Jersey's current budget.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... ctivi.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Hooray for Judge Jacobson !!!

Posted on: 2015/2/24 3:03
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Yvonne wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
@Yvonne - would you consider a retiree with a private pension, working as a 911 operator to be "double-dipping"? Why would we treat people with public pensions any differently?

I think your argument is about hiring practices, not pensions.


I am talking about people who receive public pensions and then come back on the public payroll. However, not all pensions are equal. A retired employee who has a pension of $1,000 a month, think JC Library workers or County workers, probably needs another job.


You are missing the point. A public pension is money earned during employment. They are entitled to that money, irrespective of whether they re-enter employment or not after retirement.

If they re-enter public service, and get paid on a public payroll - we're not paying them twice - they are simply drawing their pension earned in prior service at the same time as working - no different to me drawing from my 401k and working part time.


When the state gives the retired employee more benefits which happened in NJ, then public tax dollars are used. This article mentions increased in benefits:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... to_this_pension_mess.html


The point is irrelevant. ALL dollars paid in comp to public employees are public tax dollars. Think of it this way - a public employee's total yearly comp = base salary + state contribution to pension fund + state contribution to lifetime health plan.

And the article you linked stated employees made a bigger direct contribution and no mention of giving retirees more benefits...

Posted on: 2015/2/20 19:33
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
@Yvonne - would you consider a retiree with a private pension, working as a 911 operator to be "double-dipping"? Why would we treat people with public pensions any differently?

I think your argument is about hiring practices, not pensions.


I am talking about people who receive public pensions and then come back on the public payroll. However, not all pensions are equal. A retired employee who has a pension of $1,000 a month, think JC Library workers or County workers, probably needs another job.


You are missing the point. A public pension is money earned during employment. They are entitled to that money, irrespective of whether they re-enter employment or not after retirement.

If they re-enter public service, and get paid on a public payroll - we're not paying them twice - they are simply drawing their pension earned in prior service at the same time as working - no different to me drawing from my 401k and working part time.


When the state gives the retired employee more benefits which happened in NJ, then public tax dollars are used. This article mentions increased in benefits:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... to_this_pension_mess.html

Posted on: 2015/2/20 18:42
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Yvonne wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
@Yvonne - would you consider a retiree with a private pension, working as a 911 operator to be "double-dipping"? Why would we treat people with public pensions any differently?

I think your argument is about hiring practices, not pensions.


I am talking about people who receive public pensions and then come back on the public payroll. However, not all pensions are equal. A retired employee who has a pension of $1,000 a month, think JC Library workers or County workers, probably needs another job.


You are missing the point. A public pension is money earned during employment. They are entitled to that money, irrespective of whether they re-enter employment or not after retirement.

If they re-enter public service, and get paid on a public payroll - we're not paying them twice - they are simply drawing their pension earned in prior service at the same time as working - no different to me drawing from my 401k and working part time.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 17:59
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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dtjcview wrote:
@Yvonne - would you consider a retiree with a private pension, working as a 911 operator to be "double-dipping"? Why would we treat people with public pensions any differently?

I think your argument is about hiring practices, not pensions.


I am talking about people who receive public pensions and then come back on the public payroll. However, not all pensions are equal. A retired employee who has a pension of $1,000 a month, think JC Library workers or County workers, probably needs another job.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 17:15
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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@Yvonne - would you consider a retiree with a private pension, working as a 911 operator to be "double-dipping"? Why would we treat people with public pensions any differently?

I think your argument is about hiring practices, not pensions.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 16:20
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Yvonne wrote:
I have always said, if you have a pension then you should not have a public job with a salary. It is equivalent of having two jobs on the payroll.


Think you're wrong on this one. The pension is their money not the public's - it just looks that way given the messed up way public pensions are funded. People shouldn't be stopped from earning an additional income on top of their pension to make ends meet. Drawing multiple state pensions without meeting some reasonable minimum terms is a more widespread abuse - thankfully JC introduced reasonable minimums for new workers.

DC plans solve these issues.


You are right, the workers do pay their pensions but I also thought the public also contributed, too. I can understand workers who are employed part-time having more than one job. But I still haven't changed my mind. It was been the practice in JC to hire retired cops to work the 911 system, while many people in JC especially Ward F are looking for jobs. These retired cops do not live in JC but they have our money.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 15:48
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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@borisp - if you stop paying for pensions, can I get my share of the cost of bailing out Wall Street (through no economic ignorance of mine, I might add - I called my representatives in Congress to complain) back?

If you didn?t want to pay for bailouts you should have VOTED for libertarians not for the Democrats.

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Pebble wrote:
Then again, the unions that negotiated those contracts donated money to Democrats while those bailed out bankers donated to both parties (with more money going to Republicans).

Of course what you wanted to write was ?with more money going to Republicans nowadays -- unlike how it was in the bailout times when they supported Democrats? but then you got distracted and forgot. I don?t think you did it on purpose, that would have been dishonest.

Anyways, there is really no connection between the two stories. You can?t justify one dishonest act by pointing to another. I'm surprised this needs to be said.

Also, if you want hypocrisy, how about people who rave against bailouts and then staunchly vote for those who enact those bailouts? I always vote for the candidate who?s least likely to support a bailout of any kind. How about you?

Posted on: 2015/2/20 4:45
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Yvonne wrote:
I have always said, if you have a pension then you should not have a public job with a salary. It is equivalent of having two jobs on the payroll.


Think you're wrong on this one. The pension is their money not the public's - it just looks that way given the messed up way public pensions are funded. People shouldn't be stopped from earning an additional income on top of their pension to make ends meet. Drawing multiple state pensions without meeting some reasonable minimum terms is a more widespread abuse - thankfully JC introduced reasonable minimums for new workers.

DC plans solve these issues.

Posted on: 2015/2/20 0:44
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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I have always said, if you have a pension then you should not have a public job with a salary. It is equivalent of having two jobs on the payroll.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 23:47
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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While there are examples of individuals "gaming" the system - the biggest problem with NJ public pensions is that it's a state-run Ponzi scheme that will implode at some point. If a pension scheme was run like this in the private sector, the managers would go to jail.

Others have mentioned the right way to go is defined contribution - where the worker's pension contributions are ring-fenced away from the grubby paws of politicians.

Funnily enough, both Christie and Sweeney have agreed on a solution - but of course politics gets in the way...

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2 ... ust_not_now_mulshine.html

Posted on: 2015/2/19 23:12
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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RETIRED?? I always get a kick out of the list and seeing this entry on it:

NETCHERT, WILLIAM HUDSON CO IMPROVEMENT AUTH $105,222.60

He is currently employed as the HCIA general council: ?William J. Netchert, Esq. General Counsel?

His law firm of Netchert, Dineen & Hillmann gets a yearly $180,000 no bid contract for ?Professional Legal Services? from the HCIA.

Hudson County politics at its best! Keep voting for Executive Degise(D).


Posted on: 2015/2/19 21:06
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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From the article :

The average public pension in New Jersey is $31,145, according to the Treasury Department.

Yes those public workers are certainly gouging the tax payers. Right wing fools like Christie, Walker, etal make their political bones by slamming public sector workers while making sure their rich friends make out like bandits.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 20:56
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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bill wrote:
I can accept being bent over and taken advantage of by some quants whose experiment blew up in everyone's face.

However, I won't stand for being treated the same way by someone who is supposedly sacrificing for public service.


That's a straw man argument fallacy. Nice try.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 19:26
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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When the public asks questions about spending, the public is attacked as being against education, the poor or immigrants. But these pensions are part of cost of education and other social programs. The total cost of spending should be attached to programs including pensions.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:58
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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I can accept being bent over and taken advantage of by some quants whose experiment blew up in everyone's face.

However, I won't stand for being treated the same way by someone who is supposedly sacrificing for public service.

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:11
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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tough situation for the state to be in, but its the easy way out for politicians. appease constituents now through nice contracts and let the next guy deal with the problem down the road

you can't take away the pensions that people have signed into. we should be doing 2 things:

(1) every NEW state employee gets a defined contribution plan, not defined benefit
(2) try to buyout as many of these existing pension obligations as possible. may cost you some $$ now but it kills the liability going fwd

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:10
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Quote:

Wishful_Thinking wrote:

@borisp - if you stop paying for pensions, can I get my share of the cost of bailing out Wall Street (through no economic ignorance of mine, I might add - I called my representatives in Congress to complain) back?


Keep in mind that we (the American taxpayers) made money on the bank bailouts (and prevented a much, much worse economic collapse - of which I am a fan).

By promising government workers a decent wage / benefit package while they're working and a generous pension during their retirement years, are we really getting the same value? Is any one ever really impressed by the quality of service provided by any NJ state or local agency and their staffs?

Posted on: 2015/2/19 16:03
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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This is a funny trick. The state signs contracts in which it agrees to pay people X after they retire and then when it happens, they release the numbers so that people can get worked up in a froth over these "entitled public workers."

Wishful Thinking pointed out the hypocrisy of slamming people often that worked their way up in a system getting screwed as opposed to people that engaged in criminal activity getting huge chunks of money.

Then again, the unions that negotiated those contracts donated money to Democrats while those bailed out bankers donated to both parties (with more money going to Republicans).

Posted on: 2015/2/19 13:52
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Posted on: 2015/2/18 16:59
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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That comes out to $100 million/year since 2010 for the additional 1,000 people receiving those pensions. US taxpayers have forked over $53 billion since 2008, to bail out Wall Street - that comes to $177 million/year per state.

@borisp - if you stop paying for pensions, can I get my share of the cost of bailing out Wall Street (through no economic ignorance of mine, I might add - I called my representatives in Congress to complain) back?

Posted on: 2015/2/18 16:58
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Re: Nearly 2,000 retired N.J. public workers collecting $100,000-plus pensions
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Yeah, they always plan for 8%, even when Fed is keeping the rates close to zero. It's like what Mr. Gruber said - relying on the the economic ignorance of the voters.

Anyways, ours is the choice if we want to be the last generation who buys into this pyramid.

Posted on: 2015/2/18 14:30
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