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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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I reserved a spot at the picnic area for a kid party two years ago as did Hamlet. The contract clearly stated that alcohol was prohibited. Did you not read the contract?

Posted on: 2009/11/13 21:50
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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VVP_Ralph wrote:
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Except that Europe has a population of about 830 million vs. the US population of about 340 million. Annually there are about 90,000 deaths "related" to alcohol in the US and 115,000 alcohol related deaths in Europe. Maybe Europe can teach us something if you actually look at facts and not just what you want to.


Sorry, you're wrong. If you read the articles you'll see that some European countries don't always make the distinction between alcohol and non-alcohol related accidents. They purposely skew the numbers by looking the other way.


And the US would never ever skew information.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 21:42
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Except that Europe has a population of about 830 million vs. the US population of about 340 million. Annually there are about 90,000 deaths "related" to alcohol in the US and 115,000 alcohol related deaths in Europe. Maybe Europe can teach us something if you actually look at facts and not just what you want to.


Sorry, you're wrong. If you read the articles you'll see that some European countries don't always make the distinction between alcohol and non-alcohol related accidents. They purposely skew the numbers by looking the other way.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 21:39
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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With regards to the OP, I understand that he was trying to help his frightened and intimidated wife when interjecting himself into the officer's questioning of the wife, but by doing so he (seemingly, unknowingly) challenged the officer's control of the situation, and you never ever want to challenge or threaten a police officer; doing so just escalates the situation.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 21:05
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Except that Europe has a population of about 830 million vs. the US population of about 340 million. Annually there are about 90,000 deaths "related" to alcohol in the US and 115,000 alcohol related deaths in Europe. Maybe Europe can teach us something if you actually look at facts and not just what you want to.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:52
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Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:42
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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Armed members of law enforcement are not wait staff. This thread is nearing 100 posts, and essentially it's about how traumatic it was for a group of people blatantly breaking the law to be held accountable for their actions, and their complaint that the law enforcement officer addressing the situation should have been 'nicer' to them? And because the cop who could have arrested them but didn't, did so in a not nice enough way, we live in a police state? Really?

*facepalm*

Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:34
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ripple wrote:
I haven't visited the UK, but in Germany, the Czech Repbulic, and the Netherlands, there seemed to be zero chaos arising from the legality of walking down the street with a beer. Also, a tidbit of backup (regarding health effects) from academia:

http://www.peele.net/lib/antidote.html

sorry for being a bit off-topic (wish JClist could have a nested thread system ala reddit)


Prague has had a problem w/groups of tourists (mostly Brits, from what I saw) running amok while binge drinking.

Russia has no open container laws and even in wealthy cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg it's not uncommon to be harrassed by groups of drunken teens or to see people passed out on sidewalks in the AM. As much as I love these cities I wouldn't want to see the same behavior encouraged in JC. There's always a few a-holes who ruin it for everyone else.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:29
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I still fail to see what the OP did that was so "wrong." Because he said they were all his? They probably were all his. He probably bought all 2 six packs with his money. So what. Stepping in and saying that when the person is visibly upset is all of a sudden a felony? All the "cop" had to do was say, "there is a no alcohol policy here." And then either made them dump it out, write them a ticket, or arrest them. The point is that he did not have to be a complete idiot and assert his authority just because he has a weapon strapped to his waist.

And Vigilante, you have an odd sense of sarcasm. Especially given what your name is. Maybe I'll try that the next time I'm at the grocery store and someone annoys me. I'll threaten to shoot them, and then say, "just kidding." We'll all have a good laugh over it I'm sure.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:29
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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I haven't visited the UK, but in Germany, the Czech Repbulic, and the Netherlands, there seemed to be zero chaos arising from the legality of walking down the street with a beer. Also, a tidbit of backup (regarding health effects) from academia:

http://www.peele.net/lib/antidote.html

sorry for being a bit off-topic (wish JClist could have a nested thread system ala reddit)

Quote:

Nori wrote:
There are far more problems with alcohol in eorpe than the US. Have you ever been to a futbol game in the UK, you'll see that there are far more riots and deaths caused from alcohol infused fans than there are hover ere. But we're starting to get off topic.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 19:00
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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There are far more problems with alcohol in eorpe than the US. Have you ever been to a futbol game in the UK, you'll see that there are far more riots and deaths caused from alcohol infused fans than there are hover ere. But we're starting to get off topic.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 17:46
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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I guess we're both right bc we're interpreting the situation 2 different ways.

I see it as, inncoent parent not knowing the rules, manning up and taking the responsibility for his guests.

You see it as a jerk being a smart ass to the cop. If that was the case, I agree with you.

I have been in situations where I was at an underage drinking party when the cops show up and the few 21 yr olds said all the beers were theirs and took the fall. We all left and the they were arrested. Usually, cops want one person taking responsibility to make their jobs easier so to me, it sounded like this guy was cooperating.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 17:42
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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With regards to my 1st post in this thread, I'm guessing that you'd say that Europeans ARE in fact better behaved than Americans?


Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
...And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 17:39
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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Nori wrote:
He's right vigilante, I really hope you never become a police officer. There are enough of you currently on the force.

I think 90% of situations can be solved with words. Unfortunately, police officers are not trained to do this and do not have the mental capacity or intelligence to process that.

I understand that officers need to be hostile in certain situations to protect us and themselves, but there is no need to act like a d-bag to a person who is obviously from out of town for accidentally making a wrong turn or in this case, screaming at parents in a park for a couple open containers. This is a trend not only in urban areas, but in nicer parts of NJ as well.

In closing, I hate pigs.


Like I said I was REAL serious when I said I'd shoot him. (Some people just don't get sarcasm). In any case, you are right about words. For instance, "sorry officer, I brought some beer along for my guests and I was in the wrong" not "THEY'RE ALL MY BEERS". The second the OP said that he made himself a target for some old-fashioned ball busting. If the first words out of your mouth are a LIE then you are asking for problems. Cops can be stupid but they're not that stupid. The truth is ALWAYS the best way in these situations. Nuff said.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 17:01
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He's right vigilante, I really hope you never become a police officer. There are enough of you currently on the force.

I think 90% of situations can be solved with words. Unfortunately, police officers are not trained to do this and do not have the mental capacity or intelligence to process that.

I understand that officers need to be hostile in certain situations to protect us and themselves, but there is no need to act like a d-bag to a person who is obviously from out of town for accidentally making a wrong turn or in this case, screaming at parents in a park for a couple open containers. This is a trend not only in urban areas, but in nicer parts of NJ as well.

In closing, I hate pigs.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 16:53
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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VVP_Ralph wrote:
Quote:

Vigilante wrote:
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VVP_Ralph wrote:
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Vigilante wrote:
If I was that cop I might have shot the OP for making such a douchy response about the beer. A response like that is insulting to a police officer. And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.


Please don't ever become a cop.


Oh please. Get a clue.


So for drinking and responding that they were his, he should have been shot? I'd hate to see what you would do if someone were driving and didn't use their turn signal.


Yeah, I would have shot him. Duh. Anyway, being a smartass to a cop with a response like "Oh, they're all mine" is obnoxious and insulting. If the OP was 15 or 16 that would be expected but coming from a suppossedly responsible adult? Why would someone be so insulting to a cop in front of a bunch of "friends"? He was trying to be cute and I am glad the cop busted his balls. I am no huge fan of cops but I will always be respectful. The OP was acting like a d-bag.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 16:43
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Vigilante wrote:
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VVP_Ralph wrote:
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Vigilante wrote:
If I was that cop I might have shot the OP for making such a douchy response about the beer. A response like that is insulting to a police officer. And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.


Please don't ever become a cop.


Oh please. Get a clue.


So for drinking and responding that they were his, he should have been shot? I'd hate to see what you would do if someone were driving and didn't use their turn signal.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 16:35
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whether dealing with a traffic violation, a drunk, a group of teens hanging out or just a mom asking directions, I have never, not once, witnessed a Jersey City cop behave like anything other than a swaggering, loudmouthed bully with an enormous chip on his shoulder. (or *her* shoulder, as the female cops in this town have no class, either.)

Posted on: 2009/11/13 16:30
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Vigilante wrote:
If I was that cop I might have shot the OP for making such a douchy response about the beer. A response like that is insulting to a police officer. And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.


Please don't ever become a cop.


Oh please. Get a clue.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 6:55
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Vigilante wrote:
If I was that cop I might have shot the OP for making such a douchy response about the beer. A response like that is insulting to a police officer. And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.


Please don't ever become a cop.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 6:44
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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If I was that cop I might have shot the OP for making such a douchy response about the beer. A response like that is insulting to a police officer. And the last thing we need is to invite open consumption of alcohol in our public parks. What a disaster that would be for all of us. I know it's not exactly the same but have you ever seen the parking lot at Giant's Stadium after a game or a concert? Did you see the movie Woodstock and how trashed the place was afterwards? Inviting people to drink booze in our public spaces is a BAD idea.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 6:16
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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woodstock1 wrote:
Yes.. i saw the entire article and others. I think they key word you are missing here is "federal officers" (i.e. CIA agents, FBI, DEA, etc.) My point in referencing these NPS statistics were in comparison to crime statistics for police officers in cities such as NY, JC, Newark, LA, etc. not vs. other federal officers.

Downtown Regular, I think we can just agree to disagree.


As this thread has gotten way off topic, I'll end this part of the discussion with this:

An NPS Ranger does the following jobs - traffic enforcement (DUI's, speeding, parking, etc.), motor vehicle accident response and investigation, search and rescue (from simple hasty searches to high angle rescue to helirapplling), structural fire, wildland fire (ignition operations, helicopter operations, helirappelling, suppression, prevention, prescribed fire, wildland urban interface operations), scuba diving, motorboat operations, backcountry patrol, wildlife (tracking, surveillance, hunting/fishing enforcement), EMT/Paramedic response, drug interdiction/eradication, illegal immigrant interdiction, HAZMAT, and proficiency in small arms to long arms (9mm pistol, shotguns, AR-15, (they must qualify with all), warrant service and arrests, along with the investigations and reports that go with the above.

Keep in mind that all these are not done by different groups of park rangers, but many rangers alone just do all of the above as part of their jobs. Sounds like a ranger is more like an ESU officer.

But if all the above does not make them real officers that do a dangerous job on a daily basis, then I don't know what a real officer with a dangerous job on a daily basis is.

Does your average city officer do all of the above. I'll go with traffic, MVA, and firing a pistol, maybe a shotgun, maybe some EMT stuff.

On average, the area covered by an NPS ranger ~61000 acres or 95 square miles (84.6 million acres total NPS land- 55 million acres in Alaska - 5.5 million acres non-federally owned lands divided by 392 units of the NPS (I have removed the Alaska acreage as this real skews the average)). On average, an NYPD officer covers ~3800 acres or 6 square miles (NYC is 470 square miles (land and water) divided by 76 precincts)). Or look at it this way, each NPS ranger covers 10290 acres (the total acres divided by 2342 rangers) and a NYPD officer covers 8 acres (300800 acres in NYC divided by 36,000 officers). If you want to go by people, the NPS had 277 million visitors while NYC had only 47 million plus 19 million people in the greater NYC area. So if you want to go responsibility-wise, I think the numbers go with the NPS rangers.

But any which way any numbers are spun I respect all law enforcement officers equally and they they all have difficult dangerous jobs. Enough said. I'm off this thread.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 3:01
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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Yes.. i saw the entire article and others. I think they key word you are missing here is "federal officers" (i.e. CIA agents, FBI, DEA, etc.) My point in referencing these NPS statistics were in comparison to crime statistics for police officers in cities such as NY, JC, Newark, LA, etc. not vs. other federal officers.

Downtown Regular, I think we can just agree to disagree.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 1:55
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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this is such a typical jc list thread .... moral relativism coupled with (self)righteuos indignation sprinkled with sarcasm .... i LOVE it ... you guys are the GREATEST.























































not.

Posted on: 2009/11/13 0:20
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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DirtMcGirt wrote:
I rather them spend time on other actual crimes/emergencies than ticket people SIMPLY for drinking. Drinking in and of itself is not a real crime. I'm harming no one by simply drinking, therefore, you have no real right to prevent me from doing so.


I take it you have never responded to a DUI accident or disorderly incident. An accident unto itself usually takes hours to clear, tying up resources that could be responding to as you call them actual emergencies. Dealing with drunken and disorderly people takes up time and resources as well.

Writing a ticket for public drinking does not take up as much time as the above two.

I think in the end, we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Posted on: 2009/11/12 23:56
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AmyJCNJ wrote:
I also agree that the open container laws are arcane and pointless. We do live in a police state and it has been for a long time. I feel theose laws should only be used in extreme cases where people are getting rowdy. And for those of you that believe that "brown bagging" it gives you a pass on the law, that is not true. You can get a ticket for brown bagging alcohol, but the cop has to prove that it is alcohol for them to issue a ticket.


We live in a police state because of a "no alcohol in state parks" law. Are you kidding me? When you live in an actual police state where you have no rights, then maybe your argument would have credibility.

And how is this law arcane? It is not mysterious, obscure, or only known or understood by a few. Did you mean archaic?

Posted on: 2009/11/12 23:48
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I like your attitude. You've got moxie, wibbit!

Posted on: 2009/11/12 23:34
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you guys bitch about cops enforcing the law for drinking in public park. And if they dont, you will be the same ones bitching again about how the cops are lazy and letting people drink in the park...

quoting ben franklin over this, seriously? go play in traffic...

Posted on: 2009/11/12 23:26
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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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woodstock1 wrote:
Sorry Downtown Regular and no offense to any family, friends or acquaintances you may have at the NPS but looking at these NATIONAL statistics... I think that a JCPD or NYPD officer's job is slightly more dangerous. But that is just me....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ ... 2/28/GR2008022800363.html

And again, I was not talking about the NPS; I was talking SPECIFICALLY about the LSP officers. Is an NPS officer in danger.. in some circumstances, possibly, but to compare the risk to their safety as equal to someone who works on an urban police force is frankly disrespectful.


I wasn't speaking of NPS rangers either. I was specifically indicating New Jersey State Park Police. But while you bring the NPS rangers up, here is a quote and the link to the rest of the article.

"And while national parks statistically are among the safest places in the country to visit, rangers and U.S. Park Police officers are among the most assaulted federal officers, according to the latest federal crime statistics. "

http://www.eenews.net/public/Landletter/2009/05/28/1

Just because NPS units don't have as many serious crimes, doesn't make a NPS LEO's or US Park Police Officer's job any less dangerous.

Posted on: 2009/11/12 22:59
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DirtMcGirt wrote:
If it was a fact, you'd have the hard data. I doubt you do, so it's more like anecdotal evidence.


Dirt, there is nothing more I can say to that. I can present the hard data, but why bother? You won't believe it. I can't post it from a website, I can only tell you what the numbers are.

Something interesting thing to note. NYC PEP enforce the no drinking at the beaches, but not at Central Park. Interesting, no?

Posted on: 2009/11/12 22:51
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