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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Signs are designed to get your attention, if it doesn't the marketing people have failed.

That said, if I crash my car can I sue the people who erected the sign?

It is nearly impossible to focus your attention on the road with signs to distract you for doing just that.

Signs are always erected to attract the attention of the motorist and hardly ever the pedestrian

Posted on: 2009/12/18 20:51
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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People walk into mail boxes and street signs when they're distracted. Do we have to pad the world?

Posted on: 2009/12/18 19:38
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
Quote:

Erica wrote:
But, seriously, how much of a threat are these signs? Are people smacking into them on a daily basis? Because if it's just a case of "well, some of them are inconveniently placed and contain annoyingly wrong info" then it seems like that could wait.


You raise a good point, Erica. Do people actually walk into them? Bikes shouldn't be an issue because bikes aren't supposed to be ridden on the sidewalks (boy, there's a law I'd love to see enforced....)

People do when they are walking & talking on a cell phone at the same time. I doubt they would enforce the bike law there are so many other nice ordinances out there.

Posted on: 2009/12/18 19:15
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Not to belabor the point (but I will belabor the point anyhow ) - I understand the new contractor will have to independently do all of these steps again. My question is why such a large difference on a per unit basis? Am I to understand it's the various planning meetings layering on a very high level of fixed costs into the process?

Posted on: 2009/12/18 19:08
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Quote:

T-Bird wrote:
I'm the first to admit I know nothing about the cost of construction, but presumably all those costs you mention except for 4 and 5 were involved in the first go-round. Context is given by way of the initial cost of installation - I just hope that there was more than just the grant money involved initially, otherwise an increase of this magnitude (167% - more than that if the initial costs included purchasing the signs as well) just seems inexplicable.


As I read it, the relocation project is an entirely new job, not a modification to an existing contract. If a general contractor has to start from scratch with a bunch of signposts that are set in concrete, those are the likely steps required to do the job as well as possible.

Assuming the original designer and contractor followed applicable codes and standards, and the city approved or was complicit in the locations, neither party is liable to relocate the posts at their expense.

Posted on: 2009/12/18 18:54
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Moving a few signs that anyone with open eyes can avoid? Are they kidding?

People drive through red lights every day. Now THAT's danger!

If we got a grant of $180K to put up signs that no one really needed, let's get another grant to fix it. OR just limit the cost and remove them entirely.

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:28
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Erica wrote:
But, seriously, how much of a threat are these signs? Are people smacking into them on a daily basis? Because if it's just a case of "well, some of them are inconveniently placed and contain annoyingly wrong info" then it seems like that could wait.


You raise a good point, Erica. Do people actually walk into them? Bikes shouldn't be an issue because bikes aren't supposed to be ridden on the sidewalks (boy, there's a law I'd love to see enforced....)

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:26
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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I also don't understand the urgency behind paying to move the signs right now, when money's admittedly tight? As others have mentioned, why not take the time to explore whether the DOT would pay for remediation or whether the initial installers could be held responsible and brought in to correct their initial mistake? (Maybe I'm not giving the city council enough credit and these avenues have already been exhausted.)

But, seriously, how much of a threat are these signs? Are people smacking into them on a daily basis? Because if it's just a case of "well, some of them are inconveniently placed and contain annoyingly wrong info" then it seems like that could wait.

Sidenote: I may be biased about the city's "public safety" priorities, having recently fallen into a huge pothole while crossing Columbus Ave. Although it must have been hilarious to watch me faceplant into the pavement, I prefer to offer humor in the form of biting wit not pratfalls. ;)

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:22
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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I've never felt that I was in "imminent danger" near one of those signs...I'm just sayin'...I can think of a few places that could use stop signs if city council feels the need to hemorrhage money...

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:18
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Construction tasks that seem elementary are often more involved than we give them credit for. I agree $130,000 sounds high, but maybe not by much.


Frank,

I'm the first to admit I know nothing about the cost of construction, but presumably all those costs you mention except for 4 and 5 were involved in the first go-round. Context is given by way of the initial cost of installation - I just hope that there was more than just the grant money involved initially, otherwise an increase of this magnitude (167% - more than that if the initial costs included purchasing the signs as well) just seems inexplicable.

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:11
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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Construction tasks that seem elementary are often more involved than we give them credit for. I agree $130,000 sounds high, but maybe not by much. That isn't to say of course that it's not a waste of money on top of another waste of money.

Consider the fee you might charge for the following tasks, including overhead, profit and the complications of working at 27 individual sites:

(1) Survey and document existing conditions. ( labor )

(2) Establish scope and prepare documentation for proposed relocations. Attend meeting(s) with the client and present plans for sign-off. ( labor )

(3) File documents and obtain necessary work permits for all locations. ( labor and fees )

(4) Demolish existing concrete sidewalks, remove posts and signage. ( labor and materials )

(5) Patch sidewalks to match existing concrete. ( labor and materials )

(6) Contract with signage vendor/manufacturer to replace original signposts. ( labor and materials )

(7) Drill new cores for each relocated post. ( labor and materials )

(8) Locate new posts, pour concrete, and assemble signage. ( labor and materials )

Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:05
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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This whole thing is a head-scratcher to me. So the city received a $180,000 grant for 100 signs. The article doesn't say whether there was other money involved, but if not - that's $1,800 per sign. The article also doesn't say whether or not the grant was used to have the signs made, but a grant only for their installation seems odd. If the grant was also used to have the signs made, then the original installation cost was much less than the $1,800.

Now it's going to cost about $4,800 per sign to move some of them. It just doesn't make sense to me - how is it possible that it could cost so much more this time around? Why doesn't the initial installer bear some of the burden for the relocation? Does anyone ever ask any questions when spending the city's money or do they just say "hey, we keep the cash in the box over there on Frank's desk. Take what you think is fair and let me know how much that is."

Posted on: 2009/12/18 15:35
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Fulop, wtf?

Posted on: 2009/12/18 15:10
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Jersey City Council has approved the relocation of 27 "wayfinding" signs

By The Jersey Journal
December 18, 2009

A wayfinding sign at Van Vorst Park on Jersey Avenue in Jersey City sits almost in the middle of the pedestrian sidewalk.

The Jersey City Council has hired a Hackensack company to relocate 27 "wayfinding" signs for about $4,000 apiece, almost $130,000 total.

City Council members debated the contract during Monday night's caucus meeting but approved it in an 8-0 vote Wednesday after Ward A Councilman Michael Sottolano said they didn't really have a choice.

Sottolano said a stipulation of the grant was that the city must maintain the signs, some of which were placed in the public right-of-way and need to be moved.

"The signs are an imminent hazard," he said. "It has to be done."

The roughly 100 signs were installed after the city received a $180,000 grant in July 2000 from the state Department of Transportation.

Posted on: 2009/12/18 15:05
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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There's a sign on Washington Street near C. Columbus facing south. It says "Journal Square" to the east BUT it's actually Exchange Place in that direction. Just a couple miles off...

Posted on: 2009/12/17 3:15
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Quote:

Bobblehead wrote:
They have to move 27 signs, and they want to pay $130,000 to have it done?

Is there any reason this should cost more than $1,000 per sign, if that?

And really, the city doesn't possess a heavy duty drill and some concrete? And some workers to do the work?

Incredible. Read my sig line. . . .

It will cost over $4,500 to move each of these signs that you can't possibly read unless your nose touches it. It is a total outrage but absolutely typical of this corrupt group running this city. It is the recent arrests, it is Nydia Lopez and cats being dumped in the park and boots on cars, filthy streets and denial, denial,denial.

Posted on: 2009/12/17 1:34
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewa
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You still have time to make your strong opinions known at the council meeting tonight at 6:00 p.m.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 22:31
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewa
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(quote)
The resolution would award Hackensack-based J. Fletcher Creamer & Son, Inc. a $129,568 contract to shift the 27 in-the-way signs.


This city is so bass ackward! Why don't they hold the Architect responsible for BAD DESIGN!

This should be fixed by insurance. NOT the tax payers.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 21:35
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewa
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nafco wrote:
and who didnt see this coming? is there even a planning dept in this city? its so asinine...


Well, as a matter of fact, our urban planning is Award Winning!

Prestigious Urban Planning Award!

Don't ya know?

Posted on: 2009/12/16 21:09
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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and who didnt see this coming? is there even a planning dept in this city? its so asinine how they can dump money into something without seeing the glaring issues that will result and then have to spend more of our money to fix it. it really is frustrating.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 20:41
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewa
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Anyone have Ms. Romanaux's phone number? Let's see if she can fix THIS problem.

It's the completely ridiculous small but huge things like this that make JC so frustrating.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 18:15
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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That is an outrageous sum of money to move some signs. But considering how little the council seems to care about overpaying (re: refusing to get the JCPA building re-assessed), they'll probably go through with it.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 18:10
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewa
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From the 2 year old thread (See link in my above post):
================================

Designer maps and signs guide tourists around city

Monday, December 17, 2007
By CHARLES HACK
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER

A $3.6 million project to put Jersey City on the map for tourists is nearing completion, as a new crop of designer way-finding markers are popping up all over the city.

A coalition of 30 local organizations that make up "Destination: Jersey City" have been installing 228 maps and signs for pedestrians, pointing out museums, parks, theaters, shops, galleries, historic buildings and other must-see destinations for visitors to the city.

In the first phase of the project, about 500 road signs were installed to steer sightseers around the city's 10 neighborhoods, including Liberty State Park, Journal Square, Historic Downtown, McGinley Square, the Heights and Bergen/Lafayette.

The signs - designed by Princeton-based Hiller Group architects - work in tandem with the group's Web site, destinationjerseycity.com, which provides information about where to shop, dine out and relax in Jersey City, said Elizabeth Romanaux, vice president of communications at the Liberty Science Center, one of the founding organizations.

Eight grants from the state Department of Transportation paid for the design, construction and installation of the signs, officials said.`


Not everyone is happy with the placement of the signs however. Clifford Waldman, executive director of the Jersey City Parks Coalition and founder of Friends of Van Vorst Park, says there should have been more consultation with community groups.

Waldman said a map on Jersey Avenue at Montgomery Street unnecessarily obstructs the sidewalk and is embedded in white concrete that does not match surrounding paving slabs designed to look like historical blue stone.

Romanaux said there was extensive public consultation, and any problems can be fixed.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 17:42
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Quote:

Bobblehead wrote:

Is there any reason this should cost more than $1,000 per sign, if that?


Probably because the contractor has given over $50K in political donations over the last five years. And that's just the reported funds.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 17:36
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Why not just file suit against the contractor that installed them originally to have them moved to the right place?

Posted on: 2009/12/16 17:20
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Excellent point. Nearly 5,000 per sign to be moved. What the ...?!?!

One would think having 2-3 ton fast moving objects regularly running through red lights would be a bigger concern for pedestrians than having a stationary sign in the middle of a sidewalk. There's certainly been much public discussion about the former; can't say the same for the later.

Who took the initiative for this? And where does the money trail lead to and from Fletcher Creamer & Son, Inc.?

Posted on: 2009/12/16 17:01
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Re: City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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They have to move 27 signs, and they want to pay $130,000 to have it done?

Is there any reason this should cost more than $1,000 per sign, if that?

And really, the city doesn't possess a heavy duty drill and some concrete? And some workers to do the work?

Incredible. Read my sig line. . . .

Posted on: 2009/12/16 16:32
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Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting.
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City Council will vote on $130,000 contract to move "wayfinding'' signs out of the way of sidewalks.
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Jersey City City Council will vote on shifting 27 wayfinding signs

Resized Image

By The Jersey Journal
December 16, 2009, 8:13AM

A wayfinding sign at Van Vorst Park on Jersey Avenue in Jersey City sits almost in the middle of the pedestrian sidewalk.
City Council members will vote on a nearly $130,000 contract to relocate 27 signs at tonight's meeting at 6 p.m. at City Hall, 280 Grove Street.

The green and red signs highlight areas of the city, such as the Heights and Journal Square. They're also placed around parks and historic places.

Most of the signs are near the curb, out of the way of pedestrians. But some signs, like one near Van Vorst Park, are close to the center of the sidewalk.
The resolution would award Hackensack-based J. Fletcher Creamer & Son, Inc. a $129,568 contract to shift the 27 in-the-way signs.
Ward A Councilman Michael Sottolano asked if the project, which would be funded through the city's budget, could be postponed due to budget constraints.

He also suggested having city employees do the work.

Posted on: 2009/12/16 15:17
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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You asked:

"what happened to www.destinationjerseycity.com anyhow??? went to look for something tonight that i had seen on there and it was gone!"

Apparently the "no bid" and "out of town" fat cats who got hundreds of thousands of money for the program ignored notice from the domain name registrar that it was due to expire. They would have had to spend about $7 bucks for that to be avoided - and they might have had to reach into their own pocket for that. God Forbid.

If I read the signals correctly, GoDaddy has put the domain name into "recovery" which means that GoDaddy now has the right to sell advertising on a web page they created while they wait for the original registrants of the name to pay a late fee.

Typically most registrars want $100 within 30 or 45 days, plus the unpaid registration. If the late fee is not paid GoDaddy will continue to monetize the residual traffic generated from the search engines - who don't yet know what's going on. That could last a few months.

Then GoDaddy may put the domain name up for auction to anyone - including porn sites - and squeeze out more money from the now abandoned name.

But what do they care?

Posted on: 2008/2/7 5:20
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Re: Signs Signs, everywhere there's Signs
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what happened to www.destinationjerseycity.com anyhow??? went to look for something tonight that i had seen on there and it was gone!

Posted on: 2008/2/6 23:10
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