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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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07310 wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
We are really off the topic, when we bring up people celebrating or dancing over tragedies. The issue is about saving the facade of the building or at least not having them destroyed. But since it was brought up. Here is an article about a former neighbor of Van Vorst Park who died on 9/11, written by his cousin. She brings up the issue of dancing and celebrating over this tragedy. I knew John well, so this is sad. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41898/ ... ho-did-it-who-celebrated/




Thank you for the link to this article. Jon was a close friend we used to go camping and had many mutual friends. I still miss him and whenever I see his name on the memorial in JC across from the WTC site it still makes me sad.


Jon was a good neighbor, I prayed for his soul many times. May he rest in peace.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 19:39
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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What does that have to to with the topic, bigot? We are in Jersey City, in the US, and not in a third world country run by a dictatorial junta that is pushing people into following religious zealots, as they are the ones running organizations that actually help the poor. I did not know the residents of Cairo had a say on the lions being removed.


Posted on: 2014/11/22 19:38
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Regardless of how you feel on the issue, people need to get their facts straight. It is not an issue of tarring and feathering an entire religion based on the actions of an extreme minority.

It is an issue of cultural values shared by the majority of adherents to that religion.

For example, a majority of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/w ... enalty-for-leaving-islam/

Call it what you will, but that is just a fact.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 19:16
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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I lost friends and colleagues there myself. But that does not excuse tarring an entire religion, especially when the vast majority of adherents are peaceful people.

And especially on a completely unrelated issue like this. It's just an excuse to bring out the hoods for some of you.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 18:41
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Yvonne wrote:
We are really off the topic, when we bring up people celebrating or dancing over tragedies. The issue is about saving the facade of the building or at least not having them destroyed. But since it was brought up. Here is an article about a former neighbor of Van Vorst Park who died on 9/11, written by his cousin. She brings up the issue of dancing and celebrating over this tragedy. I knew John well, so this is sad. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41898/ ... ho-did-it-who-celebrated/


Thank you for the link to this article. Jon was a close friend we used to go camping and had many mutual friends. I still miss him and whenever I see his name on the memorial in JC across from the WTC site it still makes me sad.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 17:26
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Ummmm did you really mean to say overseas? Perhaps you meant across the river from Jersey City? You are a very naïve person.

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papadage wrote:
Who the heel did that, moron?

As an atheist, all religions are a blight to me, but I do not try to tar all adherents here with the acts of those overseas, unlike some bigots.

And Yvonne, stay classy..

Posted on: 2014/11/22 17:09
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Who the heel did that, moron?

As an atheist, all religions are a blight to me, but I do not try to tar all adherents here with the acts of those overseas, unlike some bigots.

And Yvonne, stay classy..

Posted on: 2014/11/22 16:30
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Continue to defend Islamic Theocracies that do not tolerate openly gay people, suppress women's equality and persecute individual religious rights. Never mind not permitting commonly accepted western practices like openly voting for our own leaders. I am a "live and let live" type of person. Ohhh… sorry for using another idiotic, moronic and possibly bigoted western religious expression. Your inability to denounce global terrorism says more about your complicit ignorance/denial of facts and implicit acceptance of a global movement that could plunge us into the next world war.

Quote:

papadage wrote:
Hey moron, guess what. I am not Muslim.

And I do not attack entire groups, just draw parallels to stick your bigotry out in the open.

Idiot.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 15:53
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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We are really off the topic, when we bring up people celebrating or dancing over tragedies. The issue is about saving the facade of the building or at least not having them destroyed. But since it was brought up. Here is an article about a former neighbor of Van Vorst Park who died on 9/11, written by his cousin. She brings up the issue of dancing and celebrating over this tragedy. I knew John well, so this is sad. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/41898/ ... ho-did-it-who-celebrated/

Posted on: 2014/11/22 15:37
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Jerseymom is correct in that there aren't any "official" symbols or icons of Islam. In fact, the religion "prohibits" them. But, there are many symbols associated with Islam, and which have been used at present and historically, by Muslims, governments, organizations, etc. The most well know one is the crescent.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 14:34
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Hey moron, guess what. I am not Muslim.

And I do not attack entire groups, just draw parallels to stick your bigotry out in the open.

Idiot.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 9:54
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Nice to hear from the Islamo-Fascists again... Couple weeks ago I asked you to in the name of Allah to denounce the jihadists atrocities being committed globally as the Catholic laity united to seek justice against the criminal child abusers in the church and you suddenly disappeared. Not without calling me a bigot too. Interesting how you attack all the injustices in the world except Islamic... it too easy to call people bigots while dismissing the truth about Islam. I suppose in Islamic culture, an expression like "two wrongs do not make a right" does not exist... maybe to Judeo-Christian for you? You asked me to condemn Christian atrocities which I did.... oddly enough the beheading of the aid worker and the vicious attack on the synagogue happened before the Christian attack (?) Let me take a moment to denounce all the Catholics dancing in the Vatican streets when they heard about the recent synagogue butchery.


Quote:

papadage wrote:
And the chest beating and whinging by the bigots begins.

Here's a clue. If you need to tar an entire culture or religion with he actions of a few, or bring in unrelated issues, you're a bigot.

Just like every story about the priests buggering little kids is not an indictment of the entire Catholic laity, despite the pervasive cover up by the Church hierarchy, all the way to the Vatican.

Actions by a Muslin congregation possibly violating hsitoric preservation standards to not warrant an attack in the entire membership of the religion, and definitely do not warrant using criticism based on activity in the First Millennium.

But keep going with your claptrap. It's nice to know who the morons are on the board, and nicer to know that due to their well written posts, that they are nor bigots out of ignorance, but actual real, purposeful scum.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 2:28
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Does a muslim pride parade mean that we are likely to see them in their undies like the gay pride parade ?

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Posted on: 2014/11/22 0:51
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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If its now a muslim mosque then there should be only muslim icons on display


For clarification and understanding, there are no Muslim "icons." Islam doesn't have an equivalent "crucifix" or "Star of David" or statues of saints. Observant Muslims do not wear any indication of their faith as adoration though you see some with gold insignias or sections of the Quran as pendants.

Mosques that I've been to in the area are pretty barren spaces with the exception of prayer rugs. Some have sections of special prayers as signage.

Overseas, some mosques are architectural masterpieces - soaring structures with incredible marble and mosaic designs. They are breathtaking.

Posted on: 2014/11/22 0:31
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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If its now a muslim mosque then there should be only muslim icons on display - It would seem stupid to have any other religious icon on display other then what worshipers go and pray there for.
Why is this some sort of issue, especially when we know there is no caveat over the building to prevent this ?
Churches everywhere are being converted and many of their architectural religious symbols or icons are available for sale in salvage yards.

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Posted on: 2014/11/21 21:39
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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It has nothing to do with Judaism, so much as smearing Muslims.

Posted on: 2014/11/21 21:06
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Welcome to the West Bank of Israel JC

Posted on: 2014/11/21 20:46
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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And the chest beating and whinging by the bigots begins.

Here's a clue. If you need to tar an entire culture or religion with he actions of a few, or bring in unrelated issues, you're a bigot.

Just like every story about the priests buggering little kids is not an indictment of the entire Catholic laity, despite the pervasive cover up by the Church hierarchy, all the way to the Vatican.

Actions by a Muslin congregation possibly violating hsitoric preservation standards to not warrant an attack in the entire membership of the religion, and definitely do not warrant using criticism based on activity in the First Millennium.

But keep going with your claptrap. It's nice to know who the morons are on the board, and nicer to know that due to their well written posts, that they are nor bigots out of ignorance, but actual real, purposeful scum.

Posted on: 2014/11/21 17:48
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

Mao wrote:
Friends:

Well no one wants the Lions of Judah destroyed- we can agree on that. So why the ad hominem attacks. If I think there is something problematic in Islam, I am attacked? That contributes to dialogue?


It is a dialogue. That's how they are taught to conduct a dialogue: Step A: someone disagrees with you, Step B: accuse an opponent. If opponent still disagrees, repeat with increased shrillness but fewer arguments.

It matters not that you said nothing bigoted.
It's not like they plan to prove their accusations.
They aren't going to quote you.
They aren't going to explain themselves.

Do you know why? Well, that's simple.
They are accusing you (or may be us) of bigotry, but fighting bigotry isn't their goal.
Theirs not to argue.

Theirs is to silence the opponent.
The accusation is just a way to do it, - scream "racism", or "bigotry", or "misogyny", or something and make an opponent shut up because they are scared.
That would teach others to never argue with you, and march in lockstep.


Posted on: 2014/11/21 12:39
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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JPhurst wrote:
1. The buliding is located in the Van Vorst Park Historic District.

2. The land was used for a church back in the 19th century, but the building that you see today was always a synagogue.

3. There was a restrictive covenant on the building which said if sold it could not be used for any religious purpose other than an Orthodox Synagogue. That was set aside by a court as illegal.

4. At one time, Jersey City's Historic Preservation ordinance exempted religious buildings, but that exemption no longer exists.

5. The mosque did previously start to remove the Lions and was told that it had to stop because the building was protected.

6. The mosque has, for some time, wanted to remove the lions. I do not know the exact reason behind the doctrine but I believe it relates to such portrayals being considered idolatrous.

7. I talked with the Historic Preservation Office about this a long time ago, and was told that, if they were going to receive an exemption, they would have to make it up in another way such as creating signage and other exhibits highlighting the history of the building and the congregation. Eventually the congregation dropped or mothballed the issue. I guess it's back.


Let's get the thread back on track. I think Josh's post had the facts. I don't think a compromise is beyond reach. Personally I'd put the previous owners, the current owners and the Preservation Office into a room and let them figure something out.

Posted on: 2014/11/21 4:53
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Cool, another one.

Posted on: 2014/11/21 1:44
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

Mao wrote:
Friends:

Well no one wants the Lions of Judah destroyed- we can agree on that. So why the ad hominem attacks. If I think there is something problematic in Islam, I am attacked? That contributes to dialogue?

As an exercise, it would be good to avoid attacking the person and engage the message. Bigot, hater, religious bigot, rat bigot, ignorant bigot, etc. etc. There have been, I concede, some thoughtful comments but these are obscured by the attacks. Gosh, Jersey Mom, to think you have to live among us trolls.

OK, ok, I get it. You are all light years beyond me in moral and intellectual evolution and I don't belong on this board or even in this society. No dissent allowed! If the Lions of Judah are smashed, it is an innocent act of a peaceful cultivated egalitarian religion that is also really cool and a bit exotic still but not nearly as exotic as it was twenty years ago. And yes, jihad is nothing other than spiritual growth and struggle, like studying for your bar mitzvah or doing penance during Lent and the current war, the unending terror attacks, the resistance to assimilation, the degradation of women, the inability to separate the secular from the religious, the static sense of history- these are all accidents of Islamic culture cause by the evils of Christianity, Judaism, western Europe and the hegemonic US.

Now can I join your club?

Mao



Well Mao, you can join Bill Maher on the way to the PC guillotine. Ben Affleck will be sitting there waiting for your head to fall into the basket.

Posted on: 2014/11/21 1:06
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Thanks papadage

Your favorite,

false-weasel-bigot

Posted on: 2014/11/20 22:08
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Hiding behind faux conciliatory weasel words does no cover your intent, bigot.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 20:55
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Friends:

Well no one wants the Lions of Judah destroyed- we can agree on that. So why the ad hominem attacks. If I think there is something problematic in Islam, I am attacked? That contributes to dialogue?

As an exercise, it would be good to avoid attacking the person and engage the message. Bigot, hater, religious bigot, rat bigot, ignorant bigot, etc. etc. There have been, I concede, some thoughtful comments but these are obscured by the attacks. Gosh, Jersey Mom, to think you have to live among us trolls.

OK, ok, I get it. You are all light years beyond me in moral and intellectual evolution and I don't belong on this board or even in this society. No dissent allowed! If the Lions of Judah are smashed, it is an innocent act of a peaceful cultivated egalitarian religion that is also really cool and a bit exotic still but not nearly as exotic as it was twenty years ago. And yes, jihad is nothing other than spiritual growth and struggle, like studying for your bar mitzvah or doing penance during Lent and the current war, the unending terror attacks, the resistance to assimilation, the degradation of women, the inability to separate the secular from the religious, the static sense of history- these are all accidents of Islamic culture cause by the evils of Christianity, Judaism, western Europe and the hegemonic US.

Now can I join your club?

Mao

Posted on: 2014/11/20 20:41
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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I'm sure if the reverse was to occur whereby an Islam icon was on a building that the jewish community acquired, that icon would be removed.

Maybe as a compromise the lions could be removed and relocated elsewhere or put in storage - Maybe another synagogue might like to acquire them.

I've seen many rural and urban church conversions (to a home) whereby crosses have been removed without any public outcry !

Posted on: 2014/11/20 20:30
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Did I miss the notice that JCLIST has now become a corollary to Stormfront.org????




Ps. Thanks to all the decent folks who are standing up to the bigots and trolls........especially papadage. KUDOS!

Posted on: 2014/11/20 20:28
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
Quote:
Nice to know who the religious bigots are on here.


1+

I'm astounded by the vast, sweeping generalizations and outright ignorance/bigotry in this thread - and most JCList threads that deal with Islam. Awfully sad as I thought we were (for the most part) a pretty well-informed group.


I am astounded that people who want to save the facade of the building or at least not see the lions destroy are called a bigot.


Who the heck did that Yvonne? I even said that if the building is protected as either a landmark or part of a historic district, the lions should stay. But that has nothing to do with that river of bias, bigotry, and loaded drivel coming our of Mao, among others.

If you want to defend their bigoted statements, have the courage to do so outright, and not hide behind their sheets. Wear your own hood proudly. Don't think that you can use weaselly phrasing to defend bigots and then fall back to the topic of the lions, which have nothing to do with the shitty statements being called out.




Posted on: 2014/11/20 20:11
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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jerseymom wrote:
Quote:
I am astounded that people who want to save the facade of the building or at least not see the lions destroy are called a bigot.


When you connect said removal of lions to an act of "jihad" (please inform yourself about what this word REALLY means); or condemn all the good citizens of a mosque in Jersey City as being complicit and accepting of acts of worldwide, cultural-based violence; or view congregants who worship God under an umbrella of suspicion just because they are Muslim, then yes, you're a bigot.


Well said. There seem to be two conversations going on: those (like Yvonne) who have a genuine concern about saving a historic JC artifact, and some others who go full-tilt batnuts crazy whenever the words Islam, Moslem or mosque are uttered.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 19:42
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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I am astounded that people who want to save the facade of the building or at least not see the lions destroy are called a bigot.


When you connect said removal of lions to an act of "jihad" (please inform yourself about what this word REALLY means); or condemn all the good citizens of a mosque in Jersey City as being complicit and accepting of acts of worldwide, cultural-based violence; or view congregants who worship God under an umbrella of suspicion just because they are Muslim, then yes, you're a bigot.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 19:36
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