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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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jcgurl. the "old" south street seaport outdoor mall was destroyed during sandy. It is being replaced with an "open" but indoor mall that will occupy the former fish market area.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 20:52
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Easy fix, give another 40 year abatement so peeps can walk to the waterfront. (rolls eyes)


How about building big plastic tubes that people can walk up and over the mall? Kind of like those tube kits for hamsters that were so popular in the 70's.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 18:26
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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MDM wrote:
Didn't the mall come off abatement some years back? Would be a shame to tear down something that is now paying property taxes instead of a PILOT.

Easy fix, give another 40 year abatement so peeps can walk to the waterfront. (rolls eyes)

Posted on: 2013/4/4 16:58
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Didn't the mall come off abatement some years back? Would be a shame to tear down something that is now paying property taxes instead of a PILOT.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 15:55
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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I'm going to guess that by 'urban city' he meant a place that certain level of population density and the a good portion of the residents get around internally by walking to and from various stores.

The Grove seems to have the backs of the stores facing the main street and a large parking structure cutting off the other side of the Grove from pedestrians. This is not what Tommy was talking about.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 15:39
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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LimpiarElSucio: You cite south street seaport as an example of a suburban mall in an urban setting but it's not... it's exactly the kind of ground level retail that the original poster is hoping to see and that the mall's developer acknowledged would help integrate the mall complex back into the surrounding city grid.

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LimpiarElSucio wrote:
Suburban concept... but its in every urban area. The largest retail center in Houston area are 2 malls next to each other smack dab in the middle of the city. Out in LA is "The Grove." Frisco has the embarcadero center. The south street seaport is being transformed in to a mall (for better or worse). Outside of the US, one of the biggest malls in the world is right in the middle of metro manila and there is a giant shopping mall in jerusalem. It may have once been a suburban concept but its rising in popularity in cities...

I dont think demolishing and rebuilding a mall to accommodate 2 cross streets is a good use of eminent domain and a half billion in expenses and lost revenue.

As for a store like H&M not chosing to open in the mall. There was ample space they could have rented on grove square that sat vacant for 10 years or in the trump building that they could of rented... but they chose the mall... I have a feeling they know what they are doing

Posted on: 2013/4/4 13:23
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Actually the Grove in LA is probably most similar to what you are thinking of for a revised newport mall so its interesting that you dont think LA is applicable. "Urban City" I think we need to define urban... mw dictionary defines it as "pertaining to a city." I wish someone could tell me how Jersey City as a "urban city" is different than "non-urban city (?)" LA because they seem very similar to me.

Actually, I dont care. The solution to your perceived problem is the same... raise half a billion dollars and buy & reevelop the mall.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 13:06
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Building towers and office building is creative thinking? How about part open air, part closed door marketplace? Along with open space for recreation and seating. Like the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul, Quincy market in Boston plus open space like Bryant park.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 12:33
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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You guys must all be millionaires - what with this level of expertise in real estate, mall economics, office space planning and such.

Posted on: 2013/4/4 2:27
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Actually newport is "aware" that the mall is an affront to the now-desirable Hamilton Park community. (I put that in quotes because nobody can be sure if they actually CARE.) There has been talk of modifying the garage along Marin to have it lined w/ stores.

The BJs/ShopRite, etc. area already has plans to be torn down and made urban.


Quote:

tommyc_37 wrote:
As of New Year's, I've been going on regular 2-4 mile jogs, and since Liberty State Park isn't very accessible from downtown, I've been sticking to the waterfront and throughout the neighborhoods of DTJC.

One thing that strikes me the most is how the Newport Mall, almost obnoxiously, completely cuts off the waterfront from the rest of downtown. For a pedestrian, there is no easy way to get from the Hudson River to Hamilton Park, for example. What a sin! The mall and it's behemoth parking structure are a manmade barrier.

I understand that when Newport was built, the rest of Jersey City was viewed as undesirable. But are we now stuck with the mall forever? I've lived here for 7 years and it seems to me that Jersey City sees the value in new urbanism, the focus on the pedestrian, etc etc. I wonder if there are any way to "urbanize" the existing Newport Mall? Is the mall a financial success, overall? In our lifetimes, is there a chance that the mall will be demolished in favor of smarter development?

Similarly, I think the Metro Plaza parking lot is an awful "barrier" to the waterfront. It's ironic that an open space can be a barrier, but it really is not inviting to pedestrians. There has to be a better way to integrate the wonderful neighborhoods of Downtown with the waterfront. I have heard (on this site) that there are plans to develop the Metro Plaza lot, but are they realistic?

Posted on: 2013/4/3 23:00
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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LimpiarElSucio wrote:
Suburban concept... but its in every urban area. The largest retail center in Houston area are 2 malls next to each other smack dab in the middle of the city. Out in LA is "The Grove." Frisco has the embarcadero center. The south street seaport is being transformed in to a mall (for better or worse). Outside of the US, one of the biggest malls in the world is right in the middle of metro manila and there is a giant shopping mall in jerusalem. It may have once been a suburban concept but its rising in popularity in cities...

I dont think demolishing and rebuilding a mall to accommodate 2 cross streets is a good use of eminent domain and a half billion in expenses and lost revenue.

As for a store like H&M not chosing to open in the mall. There was ample space they could have rented on grove square that sat vacant for 10 years or in the trump building that they could of rented... but they chose the mall... I have a feeling they know what they are doing
"Frisco"

Posted on: 2013/4/3 22:44
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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ActionDan, yes the lack of bicycle lanes is glaring, and Columbus and Grand are too wide with too many lanes. But I wouldn't agree that Downtown JC is geared towards the automobile. In the grand scheme of things, it's quite pedestrian friendly. Brooklyn has plenty of pedestrian-unfriendly streets criss-crossing its neighborhoods too; this isn't unique to JC.

It would be nice if the NJtransit terminal was in JC instead of Hoboken, considering the way JC developed. JC has a ton of office space, while Hoboken basically has none. If the terminal was in JC, JC could make a case for pedestrian friendly versions of Columbus and Grand.

Quote:

ActionDan wrote:
Quote:

Jersey City sees the value in new urbanism, the focus on the pedestrian, etc etc.


I might reject this premise. JC still seems mostly designed for cars and in many places downright hostile to pedestrians.

Some of the most populated areas even in Downtown (thinking Grand and Columbus here) are basically highways and I struggle to think of a single example of anything the city's done to become more pedestrian-friendly.

5 blocks of bike lanes after like all of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Hoboken et alia are already painted over with bike lanes is a minor effort, in the scheme of things.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 21:36
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Houston and LA are not urban cities and therefore poor examples.

San Francisco is, but your example of the Embarcadero Center is strange, because that is an extremely urban development (also includes high rises) and it is along the lines of something I'd suggest to replace the Newport Mall.

To be clear, I'm not against the principle of a conglomeration of big box and fashion retail in one central place, I'm just against the idea that such a place should be automobile centric in the 2nd densest city in America. That wouldn't be awful in and of itself, but Newport Mall is a physical barrier that discourages pedestrianism. Not good. Jersey City, perhaps under new leadership, can be better and smarter, especially as we enter a new phase of increased development.

Quote:

LimpiarElSucio wrote:
Suburban concept... but its in every urban area. The largest retail center in Houston area are 2 malls next to each other smack dab in the middle of the city. Out in LA is "The Grove." Frisco has the embarcadero center. The south street seaport is being transformed in to a mall (for better or worse). Outside of the US, one of the biggest malls in the world is right in the middle of metro manila and there is a giant shopping mall in jerusalem. It may have once been a suburban concept but its rising in popularity in cities...

I dont think demolishing and rebuilding a mall to accommodate 2 cross streets is a good use of eminent domain and a half billion in expenses and lost revenue.

As for a store like H&M not chosing to open in the mall. There was ample space they could have rented on grove square that sat vacant for 10 years or in the trump building that they could of rented... but they chose the mall... I have a feeling they know what they are doing

Posted on: 2013/4/3 21:29
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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LimpiarElSucio wrote:
Suburban concept... but its in every urban area. The largest retail center in Houston area are 2 malls next to each other smack dab in the middle of the city. Out in LA is "The Grove." Frisco has the embarcadero center.


You Keep Using That Word "city", I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.




Posted on: 2013/4/3 21:02
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Jersey City sees the value in new urbanism, the focus on the pedestrian, etc etc.


I might reject this premise. JC still seems mostly designed for cars and in many places downright hostile to pedestrians.

Some of the most populated areas even in Downtown (thinking Grand and Columbus here) are basically highways and I struggle to think of a single example of anything the city's done to become more pedestrian-friendly.

5 blocks of bike lanes after like all of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Hoboken et alia are already painted over with bike lanes is a minor effort, in the scheme of things.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 20:46
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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to make my opinion clear on will the mall ever be transformed in any way shape or form near what you mentioned? Not for decades.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 20:39
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Suburban concept... but its in every urban area. The largest retail center in Houston area are 2 malls next to each other smack dab in the middle of the city. Out in LA is "The Grove." Frisco has the embarcadero center. The south street seaport is being transformed in to a mall (for better or worse). Outside of the US, one of the biggest malls in the world is right in the middle of metro manila and there is a giant shopping mall in jerusalem. It may have once been a suburban concept but its rising in popularity in cities...

I dont think demolishing and rebuilding a mall to accommodate 2 cross streets is a good use of eminent domain and a half billion in expenses and lost revenue.

As for a store like H&M not chosing to open in the mall. There was ample space they could have rented on grove square that sat vacant for 10 years or in the trump building that they could of rented... but they chose the mall... I have a feeling they know what they are doing

Posted on: 2013/4/3 20:37
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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I'll probably get labeled as lowbrow for this but I kind of like the occassional suburban indulgence of going to the mall and eating in a food court. After many years of living in NYC (and now JC) it's almost a novelty to have same mass market shopping experience that those in Iowa get to "enjoy". It's only a place I go a few times a year so I wouldn't miss it if someone with a grand vision bulldozed it but I don't see that happening.

Let's be real, Newport is just a characterless downtown planned community anyways. Could just as easily be Charlotte or Atlanta or Orlando. I'm not saying the mall is anything great and it would be wonderful if the pioneers of "new urbanism" had the forsight to preserve and redevelop differently back in the 80s but it's not like the mall is some blemish in an otherwise scenic Newport. It matches the generic southern city aesthetic of the entire Newport area, IMO.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 20:17
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Sammy - that's encouraging.

User1111- would your ex's mother stop coming if the same stores with the same sales tax % were arranged along a streetscape as opposed to an outdated 1980's mall?

Posted on: 2013/4/3 20:07
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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In June 2006, at the Luncheon marking the 20th anniversary of the Newport Community, Harrison LeFrak was standing at a west-facing window in 480 Washington Boulevard overlooking Newport Centre Mall.

He spoke of a plan to take the 1st floor of the Newport Centre Mall Garage and convert it to retail with storefronts opening on Marin Boulevard to connect the Hamilton Park neighborhood to the Newport waterfront.

Clearly, this has not yet happened - but he recognized that Newport is a Jersey City neighborhood that should be connected in a welcoming way to the neighborhoods to the West.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 19:13
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Quote:

tommyc_37 wrote:
Let me make my point more clear, I think it is useful to have some of the retail options that are available in Newport Mall, I just think that in the 2013 version of Jersey City, there can be a better use of that space. In 1987, I'm sure Newport Mall was viewed as a Godsend. But remember, urban living was not very popular in 1987.

I don't HATE the mall (I don't particularly like it either, but I do go there a couple of times a year if I need something in a pinch). It's just that having a suburban-style mall smack dab in the densest neighborhood of the nation's 2nd densest city seems like a colossal misuse of space.

The concept of a mall is a suburban concept, conceived as a direct result of the suburban boom of the 1950s and based around lots of space, highways, and most importantly CARS and parking. The original concept of a mall was a transformation of "Main Street" retail. A place where people can drive in with their cars, have ample parking, and once parked have access to many different stores in one central location.

In a dense, walkable, city environment, do we really need the "Main Street reinvented" model? We have population scale/density, walkability, as well as organic "Main Streets" (Newark Ave, Grove Street, Jersey Ave, etc), so why do we need a massive building with parking to provide retail shopping?

Just trying to think creatively here ... this may be a stretch but, conceptually, what about transforming the footprint of the mall building/parking structure into a street-grid, and give all of the retailers who are currently renting spaces in the mall the option of having a storefront on street level? I don't know much about the business side of brick and mortar retail, but do you think retailers (say, H&M) would do better or worse with that setup versus the current setup?

Anyway, my original question in this post was, do you ever see the space that the mall occupies being transformed, as a result of the continually changing demographic and lifestyle of downtown residents? Some of you guys engaged in the discussion with intelligent and relevant answers but many others replied with rather nasty, irrelevant, and/or vague replies :)


You make some points that I can relate to, but from my understanding the mall attracts a lot of NYC folks who are not interested in Jersey ave or Grove street. My ex's mom goes there all the time and she lives on 14th street and 8th ave. She has never ventured out to other parts of the city for her shopping needs.

She goes mostly because of its 3% sales tax and its easy to get to via Path train. Maybe the mall is not as popular for the new Hamilton Park residents but more so for JC youth and folks from out of town who want to save some money on sales tax.

Like I said early I have not been to NP Mall in years but I am sure its serving its purpose for some people in JC and some New York folks as well.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 19:03
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Let me make my point more clear, I think it is useful to have some of the retail options that are available in Newport Mall, I just think that in the 2013 version of Jersey City, there can be a better use of that space. In 1987, I'm sure Newport Mall was viewed as a Godsend. But remember, urban living was not very popular in 1987.

I don't HATE the mall (I don't particularly like it either, but I do go there a couple of times a year if I need something in a pinch). It's just that having a suburban-style mall smack dab in the densest neighborhood of the nation's 2nd densest city seems like a colossal misuse of space.

The concept of a mall is a suburban concept, conceived as a direct result of the suburban boom of the 1950s and based around lots of space, highways, and most importantly CARS and parking. The original concept of a mall was a transformation of "Main Street" retail. A place where people can drive in with their cars, have ample parking, and once parked have access to many different stores in one central location.

In a dense, walkable, city environment, do we really need the "Main Street reinvented" model? We have population scale/density, walkability, as well as organic "Main Streets" (Newark Ave, Grove Street, Jersey Ave, etc), so why do we need a massive building with parking to provide retail shopping?

Just trying to think creatively here ... this may be a stretch but, conceptually, what about transforming the footprint of the mall building/parking structure into a street-grid, and give all of the retailers who are currently renting spaces in the mall the option of having a storefront on street level? I don't know much about the business side of brick and mortar retail, but do you think retailers (say, H&M) would do better or worse with that setup versus the current setup?

Anyway, my original question in this post was, do you ever see the space that the mall occupies being transformed, as a result of the continually changing demographic and lifestyle of downtown residents? Some of you guys engaged in the discussion with intelligent and relevant answers but many others replied with rather nasty, irrelevant, and/or vague replies :)

Posted on: 2013/4/3 18:51
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Its not a way that you can/should bike through with small children. As per the description from Frinjc it involves riding through abandoned buildings/waste sites, going through the skate park slab covered in broken glass, and going about 150 yards through thick brush and rocks.

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SRhia wrote:
Can you elaborate where this gravel path is? is this where the old crooked bridge used to be? I'm dying to take my kids to Liberty State Park on bikes - now that the weather is finally better (and DTJC streets is so dangerous for kids to bike around)! Appreciate it.

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As for the access to LSP, I did a run last sunday from DTJC to Ellis Island and back using the gravel path by the soon-to-be replaced-we-hope bridge around Morris Canal. Following this, a concrete slab and a path carved in the vegetation, one can relatively quickly access the other end. This little loop did not add much work to my run and there were skateboarders and a few people including bikers, it is starting to be known.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 18:25
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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tommyc_37 wrote:
...I understand that when Newport was built, the rest of Jersey City was viewed as undesirable. But are we now stuck with the mall forever? I've lived here for 7 years and it seems to me that Jersey City sees the value in new urbanism, the focus on the pedestrian, etc etc. I wonder if there are any way to "urbanize" the existing Newport Mall? Is the mall a financial success, overall? In our lifetimes, is there a chance that the mall will be demolished in favor of smarter development?

...There has to be a better way to integrate the wonderful neighborhoods of Downtown with the waterfront.


Maybe you should buy the mall, demolish it, and make it the way you want it... the option to buy the land 25 years ago and take the risk when the land was way cheaper was available but only 1 firm did. Based on the fact that the mall rarely has vacant store fronts though I'm going to guess that it is very profitable and its going to cost a pretty penny to buy it now...

tens of thousands of Jersey City's youth and adults enjoy shopping at the "ghetto" and "non-ghetto" stores. About 1000 JC residents probably dont like the mall just as much as the tens of thousands that like the mall like the mall... looks like the 10s of thousands win

Posted on: 2013/4/3 18:20
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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I have not been to the mall since 1999 so not sure what is there, but I am thankful for it. About all of GV teens spend lots of time there which is a blessing for me. If the mall closed or went away that is thousands of teens spilled onto the streets of JC.

Jersey City has very limited things to do for teens that does not involve sports. So therefore, I am grateful for the mall.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 18:08
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Stores in Newport that do not make the mall better:

Journeys
Justin?s Menswear
Jimmy Jazz
Active Warehouse

I think some of them might have already closed.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 18:01
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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RUinHamiltonPark wrote:
Great to have the convenience of some pretty solid stores, CVS, the food court.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA...

This is why Jersey City can't have nice things.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 17:56
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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I love having the mall there.

Great to walk through when it's cold, hot or raining to get to the PATH.

Great to have the convenience of some pretty solid stores, CVS, the food court.

Eventually JCPenny and Sears are going to go out of business and JC continually changes the handful of "ghetto" stores will be gone as well.

It's an asset to bring people into JC.

It can be improved. Perhaps expanded. But it should stay. Sorry but I don't feel like going to the city to pay exorbitant taxes and prices or having to drive out to the burbs to get clothes.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 16:48
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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I have absolutely no problem walking through the mall every day to get to the waterfront. Walking through the mall is not undesirable to me and even if it was it seems a small price to pay for having somebody come in years ago and take a risk with building that kind of development to begin with. And even if it were torn down I seriously doubt anything that will be built there will improve the walkthrough experience all that much.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 14:31
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Re: Future of Newport Mall
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Tommy - I get the point of your post and agree that access to the waterfront could be improved around the mall... although as an aside - if it were any other sort of development, you might have the same problem. If the development had taken place within the grid system, you would have five additional streets that access the waterfront; 5th-10th Street.

I run that route frequently - either go directly down 6th or take the sidewalk/path at 11th St/Newport Pkwy and follow Newport Pkwy to the water.

Haha - so many haters - unfortunately typical of this board. There is nothing wrong with idealising what you want from your community.

Posted on: 2013/4/3 14:04
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