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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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I reposted so it links to the absolute numbers - white kids raised by single parents are about 50% more than black. Percentages have nothing to do with it - if single parent households are the problem, as you seem to be suggesting - tough to really tell whether that is what you are saying or "I'm an ignorant racist" is what you really want to say - there is a much larger cohort of white kids in that circumstance and studying them would be informative. Other than saying "because I said so", you offer nothing to support your view that percentages matter.


Posted on: 2015/10/21 13:25
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JSleeze wrote:
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What I said has nothing to do with where I work or live, and I don't know where you got that from anyway. What I said is the truth, and it won't change no matter what you think of me.

Yeah, some other posters are right that "school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life." That's because when you are born to a single mother, as 80% of black children born out of wedlock, it is too difficult for one person to properly provide for and be there for her child. Everything stems from the home life. And a black baby born to a mother AND father that is there for him or her, has a much better chance of succeeding than one born to a single parent. The obvious conclusion is children born to two parents that stay together = better for all involved.

Too bad people still refuse to recognize the problem, and a ridiculous comment like yours is one response.


What do black kids have to do with it? You do realize that there are millions more white kids who are raised by single parents than black? Single parent data


Considering the link you just posted shows that black kids are by far the most commonly raised by single parent households, approximately triple whites, being black has a lot to do with it.

Yeah, in an absolute number sense there may be more white families raised in single parent households than black, but that's only because there are tens of millions (or over a hundred million) more white people than black people. So it's silly and misleading to point to absolute numbers. You look at percentages.

And when, as you have shown, the statistics show that the overwhelming majority of black kids are raised by single parents, that disadvantage means everything.

Posted on: 2015/10/21 13:15
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCMan8 wrote:


What I said has nothing to do with where I work or live, and I don't know where you got that from anyway. What I said is the truth, and it won't change no matter what you think of me.

Yeah, some other posters are right that "school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life." That's because when you are born to a single mother, as 80% of black children born out of wedlock, it is too difficult for one person to properly provide for and be there for her child. Everything stems from the home life. And a black baby born to a mother AND father that is there for him or her, has a much better chance of succeeding than one born to a single parent. The obvious conclusion is children born to two parents that stay together = better for all involved.

Too bad people still refuse to recognize the problem, and a ridiculous comment like yours is one response.


What do black kids have to do with it? You do realize that there are millions more white kids who are raised by single parents than black? Single parent data

Posted on: 2015/10/21 13:02
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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stateaidguy wrote:

Jersey City, objectively and relatively speaking, does not have excessive taxes in terms of taxes per equalized valuation or taxes per dollar of income. Jersey City's all-in, effective tax rate (county, schools, municipality, other entities) is 2.291, is just average for New Jersey. Jersey City's all-in taxes are low compared to most of the other Abbotts though.


That's one objective measure. Another would be to compare Jersey City (and other NJ districts) to those in other states. Shouldn't we also consider what we get for our tax dollars? The return in NJ is so low and burdened so heavily by excess layers that anyone who thinks a tax bill in NJ is not excessive is either in government or has not idea how the rest of the world operates.

Posted on: 2015/10/21 12:57
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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@dtjcview

I agree with you on JC needing a reval, but the Equalized Valuation and the assessed valuation are separate figures.

Equalized Valuation is calculated annually by the county tax assessor and is supposed to be the market valuation of all the taxable real estate in a city. Equalized Valuation is used to apportion county taxes and school taxes in regional school districts.

A town in NJ is suppose to do a reval whenever its general assessment drops below 85% of Equalized Valuation, but there are places where this doesn't happen, like Jersey City.

Jersey City's assessed valuation is 27.6% of its Equalized Valuation, one of the ten biggest gaps in NJ.

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/lptvalue.shtml

Equalized Valuation is supposed to be used to calculate state aid in NJ for underaided districts, but this legal requirement is ignored. (overaided districts are supposed to automatically get 102% of what they got before SFRA through "Adjustment Aid" but many districts have not recovered from the 2009-2011 cuts.)

You might like this post about changes in EV in NJ's biggest cities.

http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/20 ... s-of-new-jerseys-big.html

Posted on: 2015/10/21 11:32
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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@stateaidguy

Very thought-provoking articles. Abbott is clearly not an equitable system. Putting aside the fact I think education should be funded at the state or federal level - tinkering with Abbott isn't the way to go. Number of FRL-eligible students is a better metric than the Abbott districts created decades ago. Free pre-K should be available only to FRL-eligible students. State funding should be tied to FRL numbers.

JC's contribution may increase and as a homeowner I'd be ok with that. The reval needs to happen first - it's tough to tell if JC's equalized value has any basis in reality given the last reval was in 1988.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 23:28
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Thank you to anyone who read my blog about NJ Education Aid, especially the posts about Jersey City.

Regarding whether or not Jersey City has an "excessive tax burden," EVERYONE in New Jersey thinks that they pay excessive taxes and many people actually do pay excessive taxes.

Jersey City, objectively and relatively speaking, does not have excessive taxes in terms of taxes per equalized valuation or taxes per dollar of income. Jersey City's all-in, effective tax rate (county, schools, municipality, other entities) is 2.291, is just average for New Jersey. Jersey City's all-in taxes are low compared to most of the other Abbotts though.

Jersey City's school taxes, however, are very low. The state average school tax rate is about 1.0, but JC's is 0.58.

More importantly, Jersey City pays less than one third of its its Local Fair Share.

Jersey City's Local Fair Share is $336 million, but its Local Tax Levy for 15-16 is only $114 million.

Even though JC has, by far, the highest equalized valuation in NJ (over $20 billion for FY 2016), it only has the 17th highest school taxes. Much smaller districts like Cherry Hill, East Brunswick, West Orange, Clifton, South Orange-Maplewood, and Wayne have higher local tax levies even though their Equalized Valuations and Total Incomes are much lower.

Demographically Jersey City is still an Abbott, although its FRL-eligible percentage is only the 41st highest in NJ and there are quite a few non-Abbotts with higher FRL-eligible rates.

HOWEVER, it's important to note that Jersey City has a proportionally smaller student population than most other districts, so the fact that 71% of its student population is FRL-eligible doesn't automatically mean it should still be an Abbott and Jersey City has had substantial ratable group.

Jersey City is an average resource district in terms of taxing ability but it has a student population that is still poor. I don't want to see Jersey City lose all or most of its aid, but, for the sake of NJ's many poorer districts, SOME REDISTRIBUTION HAS TO HAPPEN, some means-testing has to be applied for Pre-K, and JC has to begin to pay for a proportion of its capital projects.

Hoboken is a different story from Jersey City, although I often group them together along with Asbury Park as the three worst examples of aid hoarding.

Hoboken is NJ's wealthiest district in per pupil terms. Hoboken, a city of 52,000, only has 2,600 kids. Hoboken's Equalized Valuation is$ $13.3 billion, tied with Newark for NJ's 4th highest.

Hoboken's Local Fair Share per student is $187 million, which is more than half of Jersey City's. In per pupil terms, Hoboken has DOUBLE what Millburn and Princeton have.

Hoboken should lose all of its aid. It wouldn't matter if 100% of Hoboken's kids were in abject poverty since Hoboken has immense local resources.

It is disgusting that Hoboken gets $20 million a year for Pre-K and K-12. Most kids in poverty in non-Abbotts get nothing for Pre-K so how can the Education Law Center, Hoboken BOE, and NJ Supreme Court insist that the kids of lawyers and i-bankers in Hoboken get Pre-K for "free" because Hoboken was poor back in 1986?



Posted on: 2015/10/20 21:02
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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DanL, very fasting read. Thank you!


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Posted on: 2015/10/20 14:11
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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And what about Hoboken?

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JCGuys wrote:
With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City... I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end.


The luxury development boom is confined to one small area of Jersey City. You will not find any luxury developments in the Heights, where I live; you will see a lot of children in an area with low incomes though - http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Jersey-City-New-Jersey.html - and I think you would need to determine if the criteria from Abbott II still apply:

- must be those with the lowest socio-economic status, thus assigned to the lowest categories on the New Jersey Department of Education's District Factor Groups (DFG) scale;

- "evidence of substantive failure of thorough and efficient education;"

- have a large percentage of disadvantaged students who need "an education beyond the norm;"

- existence of an "excessive tax [for] municipal services" in the locality where the district is located.

The last issue has been much discussed/lamented on this board, I suspect it still applies along with the other criteria.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 14:10
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCGuys wrote:
With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City... I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end.


The luxury development boom is confined to one small area of Jersey City. You will not find any luxury developments in the Heights, where I live; you will see a lot of children in an area with low incomes though - http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Jersey-City-New-Jersey.html - and I think you would need to determine if the criteria from Abbott II still apply:

- must be those with the lowest socio-economic status, thus assigned to the lowest categories on the New Jersey Department of Education's District Factor Groups (DFG) scale;

- "evidence of substantive failure of thorough and efficient education;"

- have a large percentage of disadvantaged students who need "an education beyond the norm;"

- existence of an "excessive tax [for] municipal services" in the locality where the district is located.

The last issue has been much discussed/lamented on this board, I suspect it still applies along with the other criteria.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 13:59
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


JCMan8. You're a cop right? You don't even live in JC. Can't take you seriously.


What I said has nothing to do with where I work or live, and I don't know where you got that from anyway. What I said is the truth, and it won't change no matter what you think of me.

Yeah, some other posters are right that "school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life." That's because when you are born to a single mother, as 80% of black children born out of wedlock, it is too difficult for one person to properly provide for and be there for her child. Everything stems from the home life. And a black baby born to a mother AND father that is there for him or her, has a much better chance of succeeding than one born to a single parent. The obvious conclusion is children born to two parents that stay together = better for all involved.

Too bad people still refuse to recognize the problem, and a ridiculous comment like yours is one response.

Posted on: 2015/10/20 0:13
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


JCMan8. You're a cop right? You don't even live in JC. Can't take you seriously.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 23:16
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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deborah wrote:
We all know that Jersey City is a very diverse community - economically, visually and socially and we all know that early childhood education and stimulation are crucial for a childs' development. The 'issue' or 'problem' is not one of color, single parent families or ethnic background. There are educated and uneducated single parent families, immigrant families and families of color. Although the Abbott system isn't perfect, it does provide access to an early education for Jersey City children who otherwise would not be able to attend pre-school. Yes, there are families who can afford pre-school for their children who do enroll their children in Abbot funded pre-schools. I don't think they should be blamed for taking advantage of the Abbott pre-school education - that is a problem with how the system is set up. There are difficult, complicated and sad situations found in all types of families. On the extreme end, school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life (including eating a regular meal for breakfast and lunch). The Abbott system isn't perfect, but it does provide help to a lot of families who do need the help. I don't believe in 'hand outs' but education isn't a hand out - it's a hand up. Maybe a better question is - what can we do as neighbors, individuals and /or groups to help? Just my two cents.
well said, I personally don't think education should be free. I think if peeps had to pay at least 1% of their income they and their rug rats would give a shit. My 3 cents

Posted on: 2015/10/19 19:26
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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We all know that Jersey City is a very diverse community - economically, visually and socially and we all know that early childhood education and stimulation are crucial for a childs' development. The 'issue' or 'problem' is not one of color, single parent families or ethnic background. There are educated and uneducated single parent families, immigrant families and families of color. Although the Abbott system isn't perfect, it does provide access to an early education for Jersey City children who otherwise would not be able to attend pre-school. Yes, there are families who can afford pre-school for their children who do enroll their children in Abbot funded pre-schools. I don't think they should be blamed for taking advantage of the Abbott pre-school education - that is a problem with how the system is set up. There are difficult, complicated and sad situations found in all types of families. On the extreme end, school is sometimes the only constant in a child's life (including eating a regular meal for breakfast and lunch). The Abbott system isn't perfect, but it does provide help to a lot of families who do need the help. I don't believe in 'hand outs' but education isn't a hand out - it's a hand up. Maybe a better question is - what can we do as neighbors, individuals and /or groups to help? Just my two cents.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 18:59
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


I agree that education is a moneypit - but the rest is speculation. Can we spend our education dollars state-wide better? Hell, yes. For example Abbott could be entirely replaced by a means-tested voucher system - or have the state fully fund public schools.

Free preK should absolutely be means-tested. It's welfare.


Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:41
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.


Having children out of wedlock doesn't cause these outcomes. The absence of a stable financial income to support a family and time devoted to establishing a connection between caretaker/parent and child causes these outcomes.

The nuclear family is not the same nuclear family you envision of the 1950s. Studies have shown kids with two caretakers/parents are just as successful. In fact, parents who have grandmothers who are extremely involved with the family also raise children with better outcomes.

When the % of divorce is so high, marriage doesn't solve all problems...

Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:39
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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dtjcview wrote:
JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.


Reality: as long as 80% of black kids are born out of wedlock, to largely single mothers, student outcomes will never ever improve. A massive cultural shift is needed, yet people still refuse to acknowledge that this internal problem even exists.

So throw all the money you want at the problem, engineer all sorts of different funding schemes, unless the nuclear family model begins to rise in the black community, student outcomes will never change. And people can scratch their heads or blame outside forces all they want.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 16:13
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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JC and Hoboken will lose Abbott status when NJ comes up with something better. And that should be based more on student outcomes and not about who pays - 2 areas that have been spectacular failures of Abbott.

Posted on: 2015/10/19 15:58
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Posted on: 2015/10/19 9:58
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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bustjc wrote:
Well thanks to all of the tax abatements for up to 30 years all the full taxing base in Jersey City would be on the hook for the difference basically it's wealthy welfare.

Hoboken and Jersey City can't be lumped together as Jersey City has a larger population. A larger portion of that population also lives below the poverty line.


Agreed, and so why does Hoboken also still receive Abbott funding? All the negative attention is on Jersey City, but Hoboken is the biggest offender.

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:37
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Well thanks to all of the tax abatements for up to 30 years all the full taxing base in Jersey City would be on the hook for the difference basically it's wealthy welfare.

Hoboken and Jersey City can't be lumped together as Jersey City has a larger population. A larger portion of that population also lives below the poverty line.

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:27
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Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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With all the new luxury development going on in Jersey City and Hoboken, I'm left wondering when the Abbott district subsidies will end. What is the mechanism to remove a district from Abbott status?

Although I'm a huge supporter of new development, and tools such as tax abatements to encourage development, I think the suburban areas have a point that Jersey City and Hoboken receive hundreds of millions annually in state education aid when they can rely on their own ratable base like the rest of the state.

I also wanted to highlight Hoboken especially. It's one of the wealthiest communities in the State with a median family income of over $120,000 and an average home value of over $550,000. How can this community be in same Abbott district class as Camden, Trenton, and Newark. It makes no sense!

Posted on: 2015/10/18 12:17
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