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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne, I think you may have left too early; there was more action on this later that night.

Terrence sums it up nicely: https://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... _plan_would_stop_pol.html

"[After the motion failed] Over the course of the next few hours, there was a flurry of side conversations between council members and city officials, with some exchanging texts with an absent Fulop. At about 10 p.m., Fulop ally Councilman Daniel Rivera announced a deal: the council would re-consider adding an item to the agenda that would rescind the June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the statue, only this time there would be an amendment saying the statue would stay at Exchange Place "in perpetuity." That provision was enough to secure Boggiano's vote, the sixth needed to add the item to the agenda.

The council then took four votes: to reconsider voting on adding the item; to add the item to the agenda; to amend the item to include the "in perpetuity" language; and to introduce the ordinance. All four motions passed. A final vote on the measure could come as early as Nov. 20."

Solomon's outburst was something to behold.

Posted on: 11/9 16:27
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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One legislature cannot bind a future one. Whatever one council can pass, the next can repeal. It's a stupid idea to think they can do that.

Posted on: 11/9 13:13
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I was surprised the city council had a backbone last night and did not vote introduce the city ordinance repealing the removal of the Katyn monument. Because there was nothing in the language that stopped the administration from re-introducing this later. Since it was a last minute introduction, the ordinance needed 6 votes and only received 5. So it failed. The members of the city council said this was not fair to the Polish people, they did the required worked of gathering signatures so either they get their election in December or the city drops their claim. Dropping it without guarantees from the Fulop that he would not start this later bothered some of the council members.

Posted on: 11/8 12:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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By Terrence T. McDonald tmcdonald@jjournal.com
The Jersey Journal

JERSEY CITY — The Fulop administration is backing off its planned relocation of the Katyn monument in an effort to halt an expected delay in a new payroll tax, according to an email obtained by The Jersey Journal.

Mayor Steve Fulop sent council members an email on Tuesday telling them his administration would ask them to introduce an ordinance Wednesday that would rescind its June 13 ordinance that authorized moving the monument from Exchange Place to York Street.

Fulop and his council allies had previously made the decision to let voters decide via a Dec. 11 referendum whether to approve the planned relocation, but the mayor told council members in his email he's worried that the same petition drive used to try to reverse the council's Katyn ordinance would be used to stop implementation of the payroll tax, a 1 percent business tax intended to help fund the local school district.

More

Posted on: 11/6 14:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Posted on: 10/25 10:49
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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However, when you go to this site last updated in 2015, York Street was one of those combined sewer outfalls when you zoom in on the map:

https://www.jerseywaterworks.org/our-w ... tives/csos-in-new-jersey/

Can anyone confirm whether or not this sewer outlet was decommissioned since then?

Posted on: 10/9 14:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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CatDog wrote:
It's just water runoff, it's not like it's "sewage" in the traditional sense.

I didn't want the statue to disappear into some warehouse, but I don't mind that they're moving it. The Exchange Place plaza is in some desperate need of rework after all.


Alas, JC has a combined sewer system, but interestingly the York Street outlet is not one of those listed in the interactive map linked at the bottom of this page:

http://www.jcmakeitgreen.org/combined-sewer-system/

Posted on: 10/8 14:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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It's just water runoff, it's not like it's "sewage" in the traditional sense.

I didn't want the statue to disappear into some warehouse, but I don't mind that they're moving it. The Exchange Place plaza is in some desperate need of rework after all.

Posted on: 10/6 10:47
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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edgewordwise wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the proposed York Street location a sewer outlet?


Yes, it is, and that monument on the inside has some of the remains of bones from the victims of the massacre. So, it is inappropriate to have the Katyn monument moved over a sewer outlet.

Posted on: 10/6 6:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the proposed York Street location a sewer outlet?

Posted on: 10/5 19:53
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JCvoter wrote:
The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.


#facts


What is the meaning of "axis of mediocrity" in this context please?

Posted on: 10/5 18:44
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JCvoter wrote:
The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.

#facts


The weird thing is that this topic predates the mayor saying he would move it. At least on this forum, it seems to be that it was split, leaning towards moving it - and getting two parks in exchange definitely tilted the balance towards moving it. I wouldn't be surprised to see this measure defeated in a vote though - since there's probably more people that don't care vs. people that seem to be super adamant against it (and not that many I'd think are strongly in favor of moving it).

And generally, in a representative democracy, we vote for elected officials to dictate these things - so yes, the mayor/city council (supposedly representing the "will of the people" and whatnot)

Posted on: 10/5 18:17
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The core issue here is who gets to dictate the nature of our public spaces - the developers, in league with our mayor, or the people of Jersey City.

The Exchange Place SID was created by Fulop and Candice Osborne at the behest of Mack Cali and is now controlled by Mack Cali, SJP Properties and Hartz Mountain. All of these companies own property adjacent to plaza where the statue resides. This axis of mediocrity was the sole impetus behind the attempted removal of the statue.

Mack Cali gave $250,000 to Fulop's dark money super PAC, Coalition for Progress.

#facts

Posted on: 10/5 13:35
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.


The statue is located in a busy commercial and recreational plaza where it stands every chance of being treated dismissively, which is not very respectful to the memory of the victims. I think it deserves better--a place where it can be more appropriately contemplated--but who is anyone to argue with your perfect understanding?

Posted on: 10/5 10:18
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JSleeze wrote:
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borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?


I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.



The original purpose was to create a large park in the area where it is and move it over a street. Seems like a no-brainer, but of course it's become much more complicated than that now that people pulled out their pitchforks and picked sides.

Posted on: 10/5 10:04
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JSleeze wrote:
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borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?


I understand it perfectly. I read the beginning of the thread - it is all about how this monument "ruins the skyline", and so on.

So, it's all about moving it to a less prominent location, where it doesn't "ruin" your self-enjoyment.


Posted on: 10/5 9:45
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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borisp wrote:
Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.



You don't understand the issue, do you?

Posted on: 10/3 12:55
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Volga2112 wrote:
Eh, it does look grotesque, but I feel that it's somehow appropriate. I mean, it catches one's attention and looks as violent as what it's commemorating.

If I were to choose, I'd let the monument be. Some people don't like it ; tough shit, some people didn't like the Eiffel Tower and wanted it gone as well.


It is grotesque - but that is appropriate in what is a reminder of a horrific act of murder and betrayal.

Posted on: 9/30 1:04
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Well, if the other space is just as prominent, let's leave monument where it is - and whatever we planned to replace it with goes into that "other space" instead.

win-win.


Posted on: 9/30 1:02
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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No one is saying "get rid of it." Just move it 200 feet to an equally prominent space that will be accompanied by additional parks.

Posted on: 9/25 14:41
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Eh, it does look grotesque, but I feel that it's somehow appropriate. I mean, it catches one's attention and looks as violent as what it's commemorating.

If I were to choose, I'd let the monument be. Some people don't like it ; tough shit, some people didn't like the Eiffel Tower and wanted it gone as well.

Posted on: 9/25 12:22
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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.
Jersey City council punts on Polish statue, sending issue to voters
Updated Sep 12, 10:12 PM; Posted Sep 12, 7:50 PM

“City Clerk Robert Byrne told the council at its Tuesday caucus that a special election would cost the city more than $200,000 minimum.”

https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... olish_statue_sending.html

Posted on: 9/13 11:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Interestingly, I saw petitioners again today outside of city hall.

They told me "they're trying to move the statue for a million
dollars!" Boy, Yun and Platta spent a lot on training....

Anyone know why the petitions are still out there?

Posted on: 8/30 16:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
We need a local issue draw out the mid-term election voters in November.


And the Katyn monument is that issue? That is one steaming hot take, my friend.

Are you sure you want to drive up turnout locally? Guessing from previous citations of Alex Jones, I'd think you are looking for the other six JC republicans to show up. Probably more of the folks who turn out to vote no on Katyn are angry with Fulop from the left than the right.


I suspect the people who care about the Katyn monument for its own sake skew conservative. But a lot of the people who got involved in this are doing in order to object to how the mayor handled this or because they object to any measure he takes. The latter category includes both the left and the right.

Posted on: 8/17 11:38
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
We need a local issue draw out the mid-term election voters in November.


And the Katyn monument is that issue? That is one steaming hot take, my friend.

Are you sure you want to drive up turnout locally? Guessing from previous citations of Alex Jones, I'd think you are looking for the other six JC republicans to show up. Probably more of the folks who turn out to vote no on Katyn are angry with Fulop from the left than the right.

Posted on: 8/17 9:08
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
We need a local issue draw out the mid-term election voters in November.


Might be a special election! There's a late August deadline to get the language of a referendum on November's ballot and the council isn't getting presented with this until mid-September.

Posted on: 8/14 15:53
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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bodhipooh wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
Katyn monument won, victory for the people.
https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... u.html#incart_river_index


You do understand that nothing has really changed, right? The council could still decide to move forward with this by putting it up for a referendum. I hope they do.


Wasn't a referendum vote the objective outside of keeping the monument in place? Clearly the anti-move people had already lost to Fulop and the CC. We need a local issue draw out the mid-term election voters in November.

Posted on: 8/14 12:39
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
Katyn monument won, victory for the people.
https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... u.html#incart_river_index


You do understand that nothing has really changed, right? The council could still decide to move forward with this by putting it up for a referendum. I hope they do.

Posted on: 8/14 10:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
Katyn monument won, victory for the people.
https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... u.html#incart_river_index


Not asking for a third-party to review these signatures all of a sudden?

In all honesty, I'm not really surprised they could get 6,000 signatures. But now I guess we'll see if it just gets overturned or it goes to referendum.

Posted on: 8/14 9:41
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Posted on: 8/13 19:29
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