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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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From my understanding of the reassessment, the city will provide a fair market value for the home, if it sells at 1.8 it's a pretty good indication that 1.8 is the FMV. If the taxes go to 2.0%(seems low but humor me) that would make the taxes 36k annually, or 3k a month. That represents an increase of $2,117 in monthly overhead, which corresponds to about $580k in mortgage at 3.625%, I wouldn't touch downtown JC until after this is over.

Posted on: 1/11 11:20
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hero69 wrote:
now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc


You can't make that comparison without factoring in all the other variables like NYC income tax. NYC non-commercial property taxes are subsidized by the city and are absurdly low. JC's are comparable with all the towns surrounding NYC.
i did a quick and dirty comparison to a house in carrol gardens, and this house would still be less than bklyn one even with higher taxes.

Principal and taxes on carrol gardens house is $13.7K per month, while jc house is $6.9K and even if taxes on jc house rose to $2K per month, the jc house would still be cheaper.

expert analysts, please weigh in....http://www.realtor.com/realestateandh ... lyn_NY_11231_M31624-66645


You are comparing a 3.2 MM home against one valued at half that. Of course the numbers are different! I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this comparison. Also, no one would consider DTJC equivalent to Carroll Gardens.

Now, let's say you found a comparable home at the same value (in a different neighborhood that is more similar to JC) you would end up with MUCH LOWER costs per month due to the fact that property taxes in NYC are super low, and that is the issue. A 1.8 MM home in JC will be paying 36K in taxes annually, while in NYC it will be under 1.5K. That's a 34K difference, for worse schools, worse infrastructure and worse neighborhood amenities. In a mortgage at current rates, that's the equivalent of about 650K. So, you could buy a property almost 2.5 MM and have the same monthly expense, but end up with better schools, infrastructure and amenities.

Lastly, the taxes after the reval for this property will be about 3K per month, not 2K.


My point is that a brownstone almost anywhere in brooklyn is gonna costs substantially more than something in dtjc.


Yes the best areas of BK are more expensive than DTJC, but DTJC is definitely more expensive than many BK areas. Take a look in Zillow and you will see this is true.

Quote:

on top of that, it seems that mortgage rates on things for things in brooklyn are higher than jersey city.


The differences are almost negligible. Less than .1% in the APR.

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also, i think property taxes on a 4 family in nyc are substantially higher than those on 1,2 or three family house.


Yes, this is true. A 4-unit (or, higher) residential property pays ~50% more in taxes. And, guess what!? It doesn't matter. The rate is still paltry at about 1.5%. The property you mentioned is paying just under 1% (it's a theee-family).

Posted on: 1/11 0:20
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hero69 wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc


You can't make that comparison without factoring in all the other variables like NYC income tax. NYC non-commercial property taxes are subsidized by the city and are absurdly low. JC's are comparable with all the towns surrounding NYC.
i did a quick and dirty comparison to a house in carrol gardens, and this house would still be less than bklyn one even with higher taxes.

Principal and taxes on carrol gardens house is $13.7K per month, while jc house is $6.9K and even if taxes on jc house rose to $2K per month, the jc house would still be cheaper.

expert analysts, please weigh in....http://www.realtor.com/realestateandh ... lyn_NY_11231_M31624-66645


You are comparing a 3.2 MM home against one valued at half that. Of course the numbers are different! I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this comparison. Also, no one would consider DTJC equivalent to Carroll Gardens.

Now, let's say you found a comparable home at the same value (in a different neighborhood that is more similar to JC) you would end up with MUCH LOWER costs per month due to the fact that property taxes in NYC are super low, and that is the issue. A 1.8 MM home in JC will be paying 36K in taxes annually, while in NYC it will be under 1.5K. That's a 34K difference, for worse schools, worse infrastructure and worse neighborhood amenities. In a mortgage at current rates, that's the equivalent of about 650K. So, you could buy a property almost 2.5 MM and have the same monthly expense, but end up with better schools, infrastructure and amenities.

Lastly, the taxes after the reval for this property will be about 3K per month, not 2K.
my point is that a brownstone almost anywhere in brooklyn is gonna costs substantially more than something in dtjc. on top of that, it seems that mortgage rates on things for things in brooklyn are higher than jersey city. also, i think property taxes on a 4 family in nyc are substantially higher than those on 1,2 or three family house.

Posted on: 1/10 21:32
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now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc


You can't make that comparison without factoring in all the other variables like NYC income tax. NYC non-commercial property taxes are subsidized by the city and are absurdly low. JC's are comparable with all the towns surrounding NYC.
i did a quick and dirty comparison to a house in carrol gardens, and this house would still be less than bklyn one even with higher taxes.

Principal and taxes on carrol gardens house is $13.7K per month, while jc house is $6.9K and even if taxes on jc house rose to $2K per month, the jc house would still be cheaper.

expert analysts, please weigh in....http://www.realtor.com/realestateandh ... lyn_NY_11231_M31624-66645


You are comparing a 3.2 MM home against one valued at half that. Of course the numbers are different! I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this comparison. Also, no one would consider DTJC equivalent to Carroll Gardens.

Now, let's say you found a comparable home at the same value (in a different neighborhood that is more similar to JC) you would end up with MUCH LOWER costs per month due to the fact that property taxes in NYC are super low, and that is the issue. A 1.8 MM home in JC will be paying 36K in taxes annually, while in NYC it will be under 1.5K. That's a 34K difference, for worse schools, worse infrastructure and worse neighborhood amenities. In a mortgage at current rates, that's the equivalent of about 650K. So, you could buy a property almost 2.5 MM and have the same monthly expense, but end up with better schools, infrastructure and amenities.

Lastly, the taxes after the reval for this property will be about 3K per month, not 2K.

Posted on: 1/10 21:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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hero69 wrote:
now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc


You can't make that comparison without factoring in all the other variables like NYC income tax. NYC non-commercial property taxes are subsidized by the city and are absurdly low. JC's are comparable with all the towns surrounding NYC.
i did a quick and dirty comparison to a house in carrol gardens, and this house would still be less than bklyn one even with higher taxes.

Principal and taxes on carrol gardens house is $13.7K per month, while jc house is $6.9K and even if taxes on jc house rose to $2K per month, the jc house would still be cheaper.

expert analysts, please weigh in....http://www.realtor.com/realestateandh ... lyn_NY_11231_M31624-66645

Posted on: 1/10 17:56
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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hero69 wrote:
now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc


You can't make that comparison without factoring in all the other variables like NYC income tax. NYC non-commercial property taxes are subsidized by the city and are absurdly low. JC's are comparable with all the towns surrounding NYC.

Posted on: 1/10 17:12
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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bodhipooh wrote:
Yet another example of another DTJC property paying a ridiculously low tax property levy...

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/243 ... y-NJ-07302/38888495_zpid/

Zillow estimate value: 1.6 MM
Asking price: 1.8 MM

Property Tax: 10.6 K
Effective tax rate paid: 0.6% of asking price, 0.66% of estimated value

Even if we end up with a 2% property tax rate after the reval, that property is looking at a 3x increase in its tax levy, minimum.
now, what would carrying costs be for such a house in brooklyn? and, no, i don't consider bed-stuy as a comp for any part of dtjc

Posted on: 1/10 16:21
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Yet another example of another DTJC property paying a ridiculously low tax property levy...

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/243 ... y-NJ-07302/38888495_zpid/

Zillow estimate value: 1.6 MM
Asking price: 1.8 MM

Property Tax: 10.6 K
Effective tax rate paid: 0.6% of asking price, 0.66% of estimated value

Even if we end up with a 2% property tax rate after the reval, that property is looking at a 3x increase in its tax levy, minimum.

Posted on: 1/10 16:05
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landshark wrote:
What are the odds the new values are sent to taxpayers by Nov. 13, 2017 as planned? In the original timeline inspections were supposed to start in Sept 2016 so already 4.5 months delayed.


Good question. One minor quibble, though: the reval is (as of right now) delayed 3.5 months, as inspections were supposed to start on September 29, 2016.

I think the timeline is now VERY tight, given the amount of properties that need to be evaluated. Not sure it can be done properly, unless you hire a small army of property evaluators. At least 100, I would think.

Posted on: 1/10 16:00
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What are the odds the new values are sent to taxpayers by Nov. 13, 2017 as planned? In the original timeline inspections were supposed to start in Sept 2016 so already 4.5 months delayed.

Posted on: 1/10 13:34
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135jc, from sellers.

Posted on: 1/9 14:54
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Does anyone know if the reval company will be looking at code compliance issues while doing the reval? Also, does anyone know when the inspections will start?


If you turned your house into a five family from two family, probably. If you put in a couple of extra outlets over four floors, not so much.

Posted on: 1/4 19:45
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Does anyone know if the reval company will be looking at code compliance issues while doing the reval? Also, does anyone know when the inspections will start?

Posted on: 1/4 19:02
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K-Lo2 wrote:
Recently heard that buyers from outside JC are getting wind of reval and pushing back on DT prices. A lot more negotiating going on.


Where did you hear that?

Posted on: 1/3 21:17
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Recently heard that buyers from outside JC are getting wind of reval and pushing back on DT prices. A lot more negotiating going on.

Posted on: 1/3 13:44
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i was looking at properties for sale and i noticed that prices in the heights seemed to have jumped significantly. i almost fell backwards when i saw the prices! if owners are realizing such prices, that should have an mitigate the impact of the reval on downtown


Hope springs eternal... the vast majority of properties in the Heights currently listed for above average asking prices have been on the market for a long time, some close to six months. That tells you that the asking price is too high and the properties not really selling at those asking prices.

Looking at the "Recently Sold" properties for the past few months, the prices do show an uptick in value but the taxes are VERY close to where they should be if one assumes a ~2 percent tax rate. On average, I find most properties sold in recent months were paying properties taxes of around 1.8% which, while lower than the assumed rate of 2.2%, it is infinitely closer and better than what recent sales in downtown are paying, which is often under 1%. In other words, some of those Heights properties will see a raise in their tax levy, but it will not be much at all, and it will not at all soften the impact on downtown.

Posted on: 1/1 22:05
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hero69 wrote:
i was looking at properties for sale and i noticed that prices in the heights seemed to have jumped significantly. i almost fell backwards when i saw the prices! if owners are realizing such prices, that should have an mitigate the impact of the reval on downtown

I've seen old houses for over $500k and decent condos for $200k...on the market for months on end.

Posted on: 1/1 18:23
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i was looking at properties for sale and i noticed that prices in the heights seemed to have jumped significantly. i almost fell backwards when i saw the prices! if owners are realizing such prices, that should have an mitigate the impact of the reval on downtown

Posted on: 1/1 18:08
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brewster wrote:
...you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.


looks like you can!


That's awesome. I wonder why this is so little known? Expensive to do? Too bad Yvonne has already sold her way under assessed property, she would have been a prime target!


Posted on: 12/1 23:03
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brewster wrote:
...you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.


looks like you can!

Tax appeal against tax assessor's property can proceed


Wolosky's case against Holenstein is believed to be the first of its kind in Sussex County, and one of the first statewide, involving a tax appeal by a private citizen against a government official.

He filed the case in April under a little-known statute that allows taxpayers not only to contest their own property tax assessments but also to appeal the assessment on anyone else's property within the same county.

N.J.S.A. 54:3-21(a)(1) states that a taxpayer feeling "aggrieved" by his or her own assessment or "discriminated against" by the assessment on someone else's property in the same county may file an appeal against that person's assessment.

Posted on: 12/1 22:26
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If you do end up with a high assessment after a market correction, you can always appeal. The reverse is not true, you can't get the city to raise your neighbor's assessment just because it's wildly wrong.

5 year revals might be impractical, but 10 year combined with a rolling reval, where it gets reset on sale, would definitely be an improvement on the shitshow we have. At least buyers would know for sure what their taxes would be.

Posted on: 12/1 17:33
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Sutherland wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.


It should be current fair market value. So it's possible a brownstone could be assessed at $1.5 million with the market crashing 2018, cutting the value in half. All the more reason to do revals at least every 5 years.

Posted on: 12/1 16:54
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Sutherland wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.


It should be current fair market value. So it's possible a brownstone could be assessed at $1.5 million with the market crashing in 2018. All the more reason to do revals at least every 5 years.

Posted on: 12/1 16:54
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It will be interesting to see how the "values" are set. Since the crash, the volatility of the local market has been significant. A brownstone today going for $1.5mm was going for $750 just 5 years ago. That same house sold for $490k only 5 years before that, but was selling for $1mm, 6 years ago. If we're in a bubble now, values could drop again. While facing interest rate increases, that could similarly impact values.

Posted on: 12/1 16:13
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JCGuys wrote:
This point cannot be stressed enough! That's not a post abatement calculator. That's a calculator for taking your 1988 assessed value to approximate taxes today by using the effective tax rate. .


Actually, no, it's even less useful than that. The calculator tells you what your taxes would have been in 1988 using today's effective rate.

You would need to enter your assessed value x the current adjustment (1/23.66 x 100 or 4.22, according to the doc linked) to even get out your current tax bill. But that doesn't seem to work either. It just shows how crazy this stuff is, new rates and ratios come out every year.

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2016/Hudson.pdf

Posted on: 12/1 14:25
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Dolomiti wrote:
Prepare to be shocked and stunned.


That calculator is incorrect except for the moment after a reval. It's multiplying assessment by effective tax rate, rather than actual tax rate. So, yes, if you input your expected appraisal, you'll get out a tax based on current tax rate. But there's no saying the tax rate will stay exactly the same, that would require the adjustment ratio to have been aperfectly accurate guess as to the rise in value of JC. They will calculate a new one to yield the same tax from the new ratable base, the aggregate value of taxable JC property.


This point cannot be stressed enough! That's not a post abatement calculator. That's a calculator for taking your 1988 assessed value to approximate taxes today by using the effective tax rate. The data for this calculator is from the NJ Division of Taxes. In fact, there is a disclaimer on their website warning not to rely on the effective tax rate for determining property taxes; a disclaimer against exactly what this calculator does.

From http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/taxrate.shtml

Quote:
The Effective Tax Rate is a statistical study that enables the comparison of one district to another district (based on the assumption that all districts are at 100% valuation). This rate is NOT to be used to compute the tax bill.


There has been so much disinformation on the reval. Or maybe no one knows what's going to happen. I'd like to suggest that a group that has been conveniently overlooked in this discussion is the large land owners and speculators.

There are lands that were assessed for $100,000 back in 1988, and pay $2,000 in annual taxes, that have recently been sold for tens of millions. It's these guys that are going to take the biggest hit. Also, thanks to some valuable research from StateAidGuy, land is ineligible to receive a tax abatement. The abatement law only apply for the improvement to the lands (ie the building).

Jersey City's ratabale base is going to soar and no one really knows what the tax burden will be because the change will be so dramatic. The reval is a zero-sum game. My theory is the the value of developable land will be very high, leading to a lower tax rate than most anticipate.

The 99 Hudson development, which is unabated, is going to add $750,000,000 or more in land and improvements to the ratable base. Jersey City's current assessed, unabated value is $5.8 billion. So we're talking a 12.9% increase to the city's entire ratabale base by a single development. That is both incredible and unprecedented for a big city.

We really need a mandated reval every 5 years to avoid getting in such a inevitable situation again. I wish the County had responsibility to take the local politics out of it.

Posted on: 12/1 13:47
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tictaktoe wrote:
Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?




Yes, if unabated. Even with abatements, the abatement is only for the improvement, not the land. So lots of unknowns.

Posted on: 12/1 13:16
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Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?




This is a coming misconception, perpetuated by some people. Some (most?) people in abated buildings in DTJC are paying a total tax levy that is higher than what most brownstone owners pay. While the abatement taxes are "reduced", that is a reduction of the "standard tax rate" (~2.2%) and so they often end up paying rates varying from 1% all the way to just under the full rate. Compare that with most brownstones or properties in DTJC that now pay effective rates of 1%, or lower. So, while abated properties supposedly are getting a free ride, that is far from the truth.

Posted on: 12/1 12:37
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Would the reval also make those high rollers in buildings that have Tax abatements left (say Trump Tower, Crystal Point in Waterfront DTJC?) They have been paying a lot less comparatively, arent they?



Posted on: 12/1 12:17
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Dolomiti wrote:
Prepare to be shocked and stunned.


That calculator is incorrect except for the moment after a reval. It's multiplying assessment by effective tax rate, rather than actual tax rate. So, yes, if you input your expected appraisal, you'll get out a tax based on current tax rate. But there's no saying the tax rate will stay exactly the same, that would require the adjustment ratio to have been aperfectly accurate guess as to the rise in value of JC. They will calculate a new one to yield the same tax from the new ratable base, the aggregate value of taxable JC property.

Posted on: 12/1 12:14
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