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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
 
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Many of the examples you give of "underaided" areas are usually tiny rump municipalities that often don't even have a high school. When you whine about East Newark getting more funding it shows the absurdity of the argument. East Newark is a 10th of a square mile with little reason for existence, let alone a school district of its own, let alone increases in state aid.
Abbott was not just about tax base. Although the strains on those tax bases were part of the decision. You want to redistribute state aid? Fine. Allow Jersey City to keep 1/2 of the sales tax for purchases in the city (the little amount we had under the UEZ program was taken by Christie to "balance" the budget). Give it 25% of every toll the PANY/NJ collects. And while you're at, ensure full compliance with Mt. Laurel obligations that does not involve buying out, require merger of school districts that do not have a full K-12. Better yet, combine school districts as was done in Delaware so that municipal and county boundaries are not used to segregate the schools. Then maybe we can talk about "overaided" districts.
Posted on: 2016/5/15 1:33
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
 
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AGAIN. This is not a struggle over resources between suburbs and urban areas. It is not even a struggle between Abbotts and non-Abbotts. This is between districts that have gotten larger and/or poorer and districts that have gotten smaller and/or richer. The 'suburbs' are disparate, some are rich, some are average, some are poor. The connotation of suburbia as lily white and middle class is outdated. Likewise, the connotation of "urban" that people had in 1990, when the Abbott II decision came out, is outdated. We all know by now that "urban" doesn't necessarily mean poor. Hoboken is now twice as rich as Millburn in terms of tax base. You are flat out wrong to suggest that the suburbs would be the only beneficiaries of aid redistribution. You purport to put cities at the center of your moral logic, but like Atlantic City, Paterson, Newark, New Brunswick, and Plainfield are significantly underaided. You are spouting complete BS when you talk about commuters taking so much from Jersey City and that justifying aid in excess of NJ's aid formula. If someone works in JC, they work in a building and that building's owner pays property taxes (if it isn't a non-profit.) If someone goes to JC to take advantage of "urban amenities," that person spends money and probably has a pretty light impact even if they don't. By Hurstian reasoning we better start subsidizing the Jersey Shore a lot more, since New Jerseyans go to the Shore to take advantage of Shore amenities so much. We better set up a special aid stream for Parsippany, since Parsippany gets a lot of commuters too. We better set up special aid streams for Paramus, for the people who go there for shopping amenities. We better set up an aid stream for Secaucus, for all the hundreds of thousands of people who transit through Secaucus on a weekly basis. Tax base is tax base.
Posted on: 2016/5/15 0:02
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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Yes, like every single town in NJ, sales and income tax gets sent to the state. All those suburban people who work in JC spend money every day with JC merchants, parking lot owners, driving the local economy. Getting almost a half billion dollars a year in school support, year after year, more than makes up for any impact these commuters have to JC's bottom line. Enjoy it while you can.
Abbott money won't disappear, but extra aid is on the table. Sweeney won't be getting any Fulop Christmas cards this year. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... la.html#incart_river_home
Posted on: 2016/5/14 12:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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None of the property tax goes to the state. On the other hand, the income and sales taxes generated by all the economic activity in Jersey City goes to the state. Jersey City and its residents, in the meantime, need to raise a budget that supports a public safety force and maintains an infrastructure to sustain not only residents but the many people who work and/or travel through the city. This includes many people who earn income here, travel through the city or otherwise take advantage of its amenities, go back to more insular bedroom communities, and then complain that they are subsidizing Jersey City's schools.
One thing lost in all of the discussion of the Abbott decisions was that the Court was not just talking about an abstract formula per student based on income. The plaintiffs in Abbott had shown that their urban districts had specific needs as urban districts. Aged infrastructure and more constraints in improving it, the obligations such cities have for public safety, social services, and transportation infrastructure, etc. Urban hubs in Jersey are in a particular bind in this context because of the state being bookended by New York City and Philadelphia. These two cities, NYC in particular, are large enough that they are able to collect their own income taxes, sales taxes and other sources of revenue. Jersey municipalities are more constrained in what they can do, partly by law, partly by market forces, and must rely more on property tax. Jersey City does have a few more sources through permits, fines, and franchise fees but it is still limited.
Posted on: 2016/5/14 11:32
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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That's a common misconception. "Because of New Jersey's strong "home rule" concept of government, the State does not participate in the making of local budgets, nor does it receive any of the property taxes collected." http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/genlpt.shtml
Posted on: 2016/5/14 3:20
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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It was my understanding that a portion of our property tax went to support the state.
Posted on: 2016/5/14 2:20
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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What do you mean?? Property taxes are a local tax. None of it goes to support the State; only the city and county governments and the school districts.
Posted on: 2016/5/13 19:19
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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Could you explain what you are referring to?
Posted on: 2016/5/13 19:15
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Thanks for the response regarding school funding but what about the tax we pay the state?
Posted on: 2016/5/13 18:33
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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For the last time, the reval will occur. Some people will have higher tax bills, others will get lower tax bills. Your talk of exploring other revenue sources tells me you have zero understanding of how the reval works. The city will collect, by state law, the same amount it did post reval. The only difference is who will be paying their fair share of the revenue pie. There is so much misinformation about the reval process and you are directly contributing to it with your speculation and secret source at the city. SOS, have you head the judges ruling on JC cancelling the last reval. It's exceptionally harsg, especially on Mayor Fulop, who has been the main perpetrator of the misinformation. I lost all respect for him when it became appearant that he wanted to protect downtown homeowners at the expense of poor homeowners in Greenville. Regressive, reverse robinhood, and just utterly shameful coming from a man who claims to represent the whole city. Rather than disinfo, I really wish the city would start education sessions about the reval. Anyone buying a home downtown with a less than one percent assessed value will be at risk of foreclosure post reval.
Posted on: 2016/5/12 16:42
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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For the last time, the reval will occur. Some people will have higher tax bills, others will get lower tax bills. Your talk of exploring other revenue sources tells me you have zero understanding of how the reval works. The city will collect, by state law, the same amount it did post reval. The only difference is who will be paying their fair share of the revenue pie. There is so much misinformation about the reval process and you are directly contributing to it with your speculation and secret source at the city. SOS, have you head the judges ruling on JC cancelling the last reval. It's exceptionally harsg, especially on Mayor Fulop, who has been the main perpetrator of the misinformation. I lost all respect for him when it became appearant that he wanted to protect downtown homeowners at the expense of poor homeowners in Greenville. Regressive, reverse robinhood, and just utterly shameful coming from a man who claims to represent the whole city. Rather than disinfo, I really wish the city would start education sessions about the reval. Anyone buying a home downtown with a less than one percent assessed value will be at risk of foreclosure post reval.
Posted on: 2016/5/12 16:42
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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I kind of agree, people need to be scared into assessing their situation and taking an action if necessary.
reading into to what you posted, you are saying that in addition to bringing assessed values to market value and redistributing the pie (amount raised by taxes), you are also implying that the city will need to raise taxes (amount raised by taxes) to fund its already increased spending. you referred to finding away to exploit a new revenue source - well since you have a " long time city employee" to talk do, perhaps ask about how the reval will impact commercial tax abatements which PILOTs are calculated as a percentage of assessed value, some nearing expiration. Quote:
and yes - Quote:
Posted on: 2016/5/12 16:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I know of a couple that recently bought a brownstone in the Hamilton Park area and they were crowing about their low taxes, telling anyone that will listen that buying in DTJC is a real steal because of that. They had NO IDEA about the upcoming reval. Regardless of what ends up being the effective tax rate (2.2%, 2.5%, or whatever) it will definitely be painful. I just got done looking at a bunch of potential places, and every single one is paying effective rates of under 1 percent. I just don't see how one jumps into this market at the moment given the inflated prices and what will undoubtedly be a huge tax hit in two years.
Posted on: 2016/5/12 15:40
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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I've found the same when speaking to my neighbors. They don't have a clue to what is going on. And this will impact renters too, especially in owner occupied multi family buildings. As their cost increase they will pass it on to tenants. Some of those sweet deals will be drying up.
Posted on: 2016/5/12 15:17
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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I'm not trying to scare people. Comparing Hoboken to JC? You obviously don't have a clue to how different the fundamental are between the two cities. And parroting back what you've read here about how the reval works isn't going to help you once you get the post-reval tax bill. Unless JC exploits some new revenue source in the next two years, this reval will hit some taxpayers very hard. So go ahead and characterize my comments as a lie, and bury your head in the sand. We'll see.
Posted on: 2016/5/12 15:04
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Poor them. It came on market in 2001, with a similar unit then selling for $350k, hence the low tax. 600% return over 15 years is nothing to boohoo about.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 16:34
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Agreed. For a good example of people paying a fraction of what they would be paying post-reval take a look at 299 Pavonia, the Wells Fargo building near Hamilton Park. A unit there recently went on the market for 1.9 million and the taxes are ridiculously low. They have people who have been there fore decades paying well below 10k in taxes on 2-3000 sf lofts. Won't be surprised to see a lot of those units on the market soon.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 14:49
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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If the listed agent in the zillow listing is who you spoke with when you went to see the condo, it doesn't surprise me in the least that she either withheld or misrepresented pertinent information about the property, taxes or anything else of substance. She was the developer's sales agent in Gull's Cove and made numerous misrepresentations to us when we bought - one of which (the actual dimensions of what we were buying - we bought before it was built) was serious enough that the developer ended up eating more than $100,000 in costs to fix the problem.
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Posted on: 2016/5/11 14:46
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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If you repeat a lie often enough, does it become true? Quote: I had a candid discussion with a long time city employee who's opinion I trust. This person isn't a politician and has served under many administrations. He believes that we'll have taxes of $17 per thousand (or what tax newbs call 1.7%) if we are very fortunate. It could easily be in the low teens. So if you want to shoot the messenger, go for it! I can guarantee that he knows more about the reval and jc taxes than anyone posting in this thread. Certainly more than me. The State has finally lowered the hammer and JC has a zero chance of pushing the reval back any further. So I'm not sure who you're shilling for or who you're trying to convince. It's a done deal and we will soon find out what the true tax rate. It's impossible to know until the total ratable base is discovered. Saying $25 per thousand is meaningless without the total ratable base. If your "trusted" long-time city employee that knows more than anyone about the reval is accurate, then he must have an idea of what the ratable base will be. Since JC hasn't done a reval in 27 years, it could be your source doesn't know what he's talking about. The folks in Hoboken were also screaming armageddon for their reval, but they turned up alright. It's currently $5,997,768,597 based on state records found here: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/abstractrate.shtml It's anyone guess what the new ratabale base will be - once that's known, then the tax rate will be set. Will it be $25 per thousand, possibly. That would be much higher than the current equalized value of 2.2 percent... Are you trying to scare people that there taxes will be higher with the reval? It's a zero sum game, which means there will be some winners and losers. The biggest loser will be Newport Mall, and other large land holders on the waterfront. They're currently paying less than 1 percent of their current fair market value thanks to the boom in land prices. Their loss will be everyone else's gain. Remember, the reval is to make sure everyone pays their equitable share. Right now, poor folks in Greenville have been subsidizing downtown for years. It's only now that folks have been waking up and demanding a reval.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 14:38
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Makes sense. Why would anyone paying unreasonably low property taxes want to step up and say take more of my money; double or triple what I already pay, that's fine with me. My question to those people who think that taxes based on value are inherently unfair is, what do they propose is a fair system?
Posted on: 2016/5/11 14:10
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I eat fu*king hipsters and sh*t out fixie bikes.
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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As someone else had predicted, we are starting to see a lot more high-end properties coming online for sale. Perusing the Zillow listings for properties with values of 750+ K in 07302 yields almost 60 hits. I don't remember ever seeing that many listings at once. I wonder how many of those are motivated to to try and sell now because of the reval.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 11:26
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Obviously, I fully agree with your first line, and I understand the motivation by the city to remain filet, but I still think the city could and should do a better job of informing people. It's the right thing to do, and the ethical one. Sadly, I have a slightly different take on the second part of your reply: as we have already seen here (and, in NextDoor threads) many people in DTJC feel they are paying enough taxes already and that property taxes based on value are inherently unfair so, if they could have it their way, they would happily continue the current "reverse Robin Hood" scheme.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 11:17
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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If the mayor was doubling down on the status quo, why would they call attention to it? Remarkably, I'll bet that most people don't pay attention due to the fact that taxes are inevitable, and they truly believe that the city would levy them fairly, not perpetrate an unbelievable "reverse Robin Hood" scam on the majority of owners for decades.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 3:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I find it remarkable that large swaths of residents remain completely oblivious to the looming reval. In conversations with some local homeowners, it is not at all rare to bring up the topic and be welcomed with blank stares. I'm not sure how to feel: on the one hand I think homeowners should make it a point to be informed about all these issues, while on the other I feel the city could/should do a better job of keeping the community informed. Imagine not knowing anything about this and getting a bill in 2018 for twice your 2017 property taxes. Or, maybe even triple.
Posted on: 2016/5/11 3:08
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The site says a sale of this property in 99 for $300k. Assuming the assessment was set then relative to that price, it all makes sense. It's not 28 years stale, but in Paulus Hook, 17 years is a long time to outpace values elsewhere in the city. Truly the only thing notable in the anecdote about a property paying in the area of 1% is the realtors keeping mum about the reval. Can't blame them if it's not required, they're there to move product. Caveat emptor!
Posted on: 2016/5/10 20:40
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Actually, no. The condo conversion happened in 2005 according to tax rolls and the realtor. I think before then it was rentals, or something else.
Posted on: 2016/5/10 20:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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This is the Zillow listing for the property: http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/ ... false&fromHomePageTab=buy Like I said, I went to see it yesterday. Definitely a nice building, and some neat details. But, the property is over-priced by several hundreds of thousands. They built a "loft" floor in the entrance area that has a very low ceiling (under 7 feet) and the second bathroom needs to be completely redone. I think 1.2 MM is closer to proper valuation, and even at that price it may be a little too high. To more directly answer your question, the condo conversation happened in 2005 or 2006. Taxes at the time were just under 8K. Now at 12.7K. Take a look at the listing but don't get fooled by the pictures! I went in expecting it to be much nicer than it really was: whoever took those photos is an expert at making the most out of anything.
Posted on: 2016/5/10 20:06
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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A long time - before I moved here in 1995, IIRC. Its the bank building in Paulus Hook on Montgomery.
Posted on: 2016/5/10 20:04
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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How long had it been a condo? As I understand it, at condo conversion it is given an assessment base on sale price divided by the current ratio. $12k means the condo's original sale price was under $550k.
Posted on: 2016/5/10 19:51
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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If your "source" is correct (he may be, or maybe not) then the hit will be much significant than even some are expecting. I wouldn't want to find myself sitting on a brownstone valued at over 1 million which currently pays 10K, or less. All those properties paying effective rates of 1% or less will get some nasty sticker shock. BTW, not sure why you refer to people using percentages as tax newbs. In every other place where I have lived, taxes are always quoted as percentages. Ultimately, it is all the same. There is no difference between saying 2.5% or $25 per thousand. Total aside: went to see a property last night that is being advertised for 1.5 MM at the site of a former bank on Montgomery (btw, the condo was way overpriced, it should be 1.2, or maybe even 1MM) and the taxes on it are a paltry 12K. If that property actually sells for 1.5MM, and your quoted rate of 2.5% comes to be, the updated tax bill would be 37.5K, a three time increase. What was particularly appalling is that the realtors were highlighting the low taxes in their advertising materials, without any mention of the impending reval. I wonder how many people are buying into the hot real estate market without any idea of what awaits them in less than two years.
Posted on: 2016/5/10 19:23
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