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bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

Pebble wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Err, you are wrong on a couple of things. The "false documents" are for any type of dog you wish to pass as a service dog, or emotional support. There is no official certification or designation of what constitute a service dog. Some service dogs are trained to detect an oncoming epileptic attack or other types of seizures. They don't provide a "visible" service other than being able to predict or detect those situations. Someone may see a person with such a dog and not understand or believe their usefulness. This is precisely why the federal statutes made it so a dog's status can not be questioned based on observations alone.

As for ESA status, they don't enjoy the same protections as service dogs, but they DO have some federally mandated rights/protections, specifically housing and flying.

There is a defined outline of what a service dog is. You can find it here.

As for falsifying documents, it is true that people can falsify just about anything. The vast majority are those that are doing so are using the auspice of "emotional support dogs." This is far easier to get documents for.

You are correct that there is *some* protection, but this isn't included in restaurants or the PATH. Housing and flying are minimal benefits.

I'm honestly unsure of what your message was going for. I provided a link that includes the laws.

We might be debating semantics, but I still don't think you understand that there is no official certification for a service animal. Anyone can train a dog to performa a service or task and legally call his/her dog a service dog. This was by design, so additional burdens were not placed on people with disabilities who took it upon themselves to train their own dog.

I see. So you?re basically posting based on what you *believe* I do and do not know. Ok then...

Sigh... I am not sure why you are arguing with me about this. We seem to be in agreement (for the most part) and I was simply pointing out that there is no official government certification of what constitutes a service dog. In a way, I think the government SHOULD have some sort of certification to remove all doubts or issues, just like we have drivers license, pilot licenses, etc. Heck, we even have dog registration laws in most places. Adding a simple requirement where a dog can be cursorily evaluated as to being properly trained in terms of behavior and temperament would be a step forward.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 18:11

Pebble

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Err, you are wrong on a couple of things. The "false documents" are for any type of dog you wish to pass as a service dog, or emotional support. There is no official certification or designation of what constitute a service dog. Some service dogs are trained to detect an oncoming epileptic attack or other types of seizures. They don't provide a "visible" service other than being able to predict or detect those situations. Someone may see a person with such a dog and not understand or believe their usefulness. This is precisely why the federal statutes made it so a dog's status can not be questioned based on observations alone.

As for ESA status, they don't enjoy the same protections as service dogs, but they DO have some federally mandated rights/protections, specifically housing and flying.

There is a defined outline of what a service dog is. You can find it here.

As for falsifying documents, it is true that people can falsify just about anything. The vast majority are those that are doing so are using the auspice of "emotional support dogs." This is far easier to get documents for.

You are correct that there is *some* protection, but this isn't included in restaurants or the PATH. Housing and flying are minimal benefits.

I'm honestly unsure of what your message was going for. I provided a link that includes the laws.

We might be debating semantics, but I still don't think you understand that there is no official certification for a service animal. Anyone can train a dog to performa a service or task and legally call his/her dog a service dog. This was by design, so additional burdens were not placed on people with disabilities who took it upon themselves to train their own dog.

I see. So you?re basically posting based on what you *believe* I do and do not know. Ok then...

Posted on: 2015/12/31 16:32

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meowmix

Re: Dog on Path

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b, yes, I know about service dogs for invisible disabilities like epilepsy. But those are still disabilities. Like, when you apply for a gov't job, and they ask if you are disabled, the disabilities they list include epilepsy, cancer, major mental health concerns, etc. (It can comes down to the individual of course, and whether or not they consider their condition a disability.) And that service animals can perform many tasks that are invisible to the untrained eye.

Just wasn't sure where emotional support animals fall.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 14:57

user1111

Re: Dog on Path

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When Dog Owners Are Off the Leash

Posted on: 2015/12/31 10:56

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bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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meowmix wrote:
Bodhipooh, is it required that the person with the service animal be disabled? I thought that was where a lot of the emotional support animal fakery was coming in...it takes a special kind of person to say that they are disabled when they're not, but the line for emotional support animal seems more blurry in that regard, and thus, less obviously wrong to lie about.

For the record I know that animals provide valuable emotional support and can replace medication for some people. And I do think well trained dogs should be allowed everywhere. But until my dog utopia is manifest, I will follow the rules.

The answer is NO. You may not be actually disabled, but still be in need of a service dog, as in the case of epileptic people who may walk around with a dog that can sense an oncoming epileptic seizure. This is precisely why the aw was vague; some disabilities may not be readily apparent. Some dogs are trained to perform a service or task for a person that may not be obvious.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 7:57

meowmix

Re: Dog on Path

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Bodhipooh, is it required that the person with the service animal be disabled? I thought that was where a lot of the emotional support animal fakery was coming in...it takes a special kind of person to say that they are disabled when they're not, but the line for emotional support animal seems more blurry in that regard, and thus, less obviously wrong to lie about.

For the record I know that animals provide valuable emotional support and can replace medication for some people. And I do think well trained dogs should be allowed everywhere. But until my dog utopia is manifest, I will follow the rules.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 3:39

bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Err, you are wrong on a couple of things. The "false documents" are for any type of dog you wish to pass as a service dog, or emotional support. There is no official certification or designation of what constitute a service dog. Some service dogs are trained to detect an oncoming epileptic attack or other types of seizures. They don't provide a "visible" service other than being able to predict or detect those situations. Someone may see a person with such a dog and not understand or believe their usefulness. This is precisely why the federal statutes made it so a dog's status can not be questioned based on observations alone.

As for ESA status, they don't enjoy the same protections as service dogs, but they DO have some federally mandated rights/protections, specifically housing and flying.

There is a defined outline of what a service dog is. You can find it here.

As for falsifying documents, it is true that people can falsify just about anything. The vast majority are those that are doing so are using the auspice of "emotional support dogs." This is far easier to get documents for.

You are correct that there is *some* protection, but this isn't included in restaurants or the PATH. Housing and flying are minimal benefits.

I'm honestly unsure of what your message was going for. I provided a link that includes the laws.

We might be debating semantics, but I still don't think you understand that there is no official certification for a service animal. Anyone can train a dog to performa a service or task and legally call his/her dog a service dog. This was by design, so additional burdens were not placed on people with disabilities who took it upon themselves to train their own dog.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 2:15

JimmyMook

Re: Dog on Path

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I've seen the phoney dog vests and seems like a sleazy option.
My dog is quite large but very friendly and is quite flexible as I've seen him lick his balls and anus with little trouble.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 23:37

skyl4rk

Re: Dog on Path

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I'm not supposed to bring my dog into the post office either, but I do. Because she's awesome. Not as awesome as man-purse pitbull up there, but pretty darn close.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 23:11

Pebble

Re: Dog on Path

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bodhipooh wrote:
Err, you are wrong on a couple of things. The "false documents" are for any type of dog you wish to pass as a service dog, or emotional support. There is no official certification or designation of what constitute a service dog. Some service dogs are trained to detect an oncoming epileptic attack or other types of seizures. They don't provide a "visible" service other than being able to predict or detect those situations. Someone may see a person with such a dog and not understand or believe their usefulness. This is precisely why the federal statutes made it so a dog's status can not be questioned based on observations alone.

As for ESA status, they don't enjoy the same protections as service dogs, but they DO have some federally mandated rights/protections, specifically housing and flying.

There is a defined outline of what a service dog is. You can find it here.

As for falsifying documents, it is true that people can falsify just about anything. The vast majority are those that are doing so are using the auspice of "emotional support dogs." This is far easier to get documents for.

You are correct that there is *some* protection, but this isn't included in restaurants or the PATH. Housing and flying are minimal benefits.

I'm honestly unsure of what your message was going for. I provided a link that includes the laws.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:13

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bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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Pebble wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Truthfully, this is why the best approach is to have smart regulations rather than outright bans. Perhaps allow dogs on the last two train wagons or something and/or during certain hours (like not during rush hour). Otherwise, people get forced into this fake service dog nonsense and no one is happy.

Because it is illegal to decline access for a service animal, this loophole must exist. However, the Port Authority really doesn?t want dogs on the train for a variety of reasons with primary reason being that they use police dogs for bomb sniffing and apprehension.

Police dogs are extreme alphas that would become distracted by another dog and possibly even try to attack that other dog.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

It definitely happens a lot more than you seem to think. Over in NYC, lots of merchants (especially grocers) have been complaining of more and more people showing up with dogs they claim are service dogs. The problem stems from the federal regulations. By federal law, a person is entitled to go pretty much anywhere with a service dog, and the only "proof" of a dog status is the word of the owner. BY LAW, only TWO questions can be presented to the owner of a dog when trying to determine if a dog is indeed a service dog:

1. Is your dog a service dog?
2. What service is the dog trained to provide or render?

Any other question is a violation of federal law. The idea was to ensure that people would not be denied their due rights. The end result was a ridiculous system in which ANYONE can claim their dog is a service dog because no regulation was set on what constitute a service animal, nor is there a set standard or benchmark.

It's a HUGE problem, and one that the federal government will need to address at some point.

Actually, no. The ?HUGE problem? comes from people?s lack of understanding the laws that are put in place.

The federal law makes allowances for service dogs that cater to special needs, such as blindness, hearing dogs for the deaf, diabetic alert dogs. The law does *not* allow for people with dogs for anxiety to just be allowed to go anywhere they want. However, many people that work in restaurants and shops do not understand the difference. There are also some dog owners that use the ?s/he?s my emotional support dog? as the excuse and believe that the law protects them when it doesn?t.

The false documents are for dogs providing emotional support. It is not for dogs providing actual assistance for physical limitations.

The New Yorker had a rather funny article on this: here.

Err, you are wrong on a couple of things. The "false documents" are for any type of dog you wish to pass as a service dog, or emotional support. There is no official certification or designation of what constitute a service dog. Some service dogs are trained to detect an oncoming epileptic attack or other types of seizures. They don't provide a "visible" service other than being able to predict or detect those situations. Someone may see a person with such a dog and not understand or believe their usefulness. This is precisely why the federal statutes made it so a dog's status can not be questioned based on observations alone.

As for ESA status, they don't enjoy the same protections as service dogs, but they DO have some federally mandated rights/protections, specifically housing and flying.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 18:15

Fomite

Re: Dog on Path

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I travel with my dog on PAtH on a regular basis and as long as he's in a bag they have never given me a problem. Even if he's halfway in my purse with his head sticking out.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 17:00

Pebble

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Truthfully, this is why the best approach is to have smart regulations rather than outright bans. Perhaps allow dogs on the last two train wagons or something and/or during certain hours (like not during rush hour). Otherwise, people get forced into this fake service dog nonsense and no one is happy.

Because it is illegal to decline access for a service animal, this loophole must exist. However, the Port Authority really doesn?t want dogs on the train for a variety of reasons with primary reason being that they use police dogs for bomb sniffing and apprehension.

Police dogs are extreme alphas that would become distracted by another dog and possibly even try to attack that other dog.

Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

It definitely happens a lot more than you seem to think. Over in NYC, lots of merchants (especially grocers) have been complaining of more and more people showing up with dogs they claim are service dogs. The problem stems from the federal regulations. By federal law, a person is entitled to go pretty much anywhere with a service dog, and the only "proof" of a dog status is the word of the owner. BY LAW, only TWO questions can be presented to the owner of a dog when trying to determine if a dog is indeed a service dog:

1. Is your dog a service dog?
2. What service is the dog trained to provide or render?

Any other question is a violation of federal law. The idea was to ensure that people would not be denied their due rights. The end result was a ridiculous system in which ANYONE can claim their dog is a service dog because no regulation was set on what constitute a service animal, nor is there a set standard or benchmark.

It's a HUGE problem, and one that the federal government will need to address at some point.

Actually, no. The ?HUGE problem? comes from people?s lack of understanding the laws that are put in place.

The federal law makes allowances for service dogs that cater to special needs, such as blindness, hearing dogs for the deaf, diabetic alert dogs. The law does *not* allow for people with dogs for anxiety to just be allowed to go anywhere they want. However, many people that work in restaurants and shops do not understand the difference. There are also some dog owners that use the ?s/he?s my emotional support dog? as the excuse and believe that the law protects them when it doesn?t.

The false documents are for dogs providing emotional support. It is not for dogs providing actual assistance for physical limitations.

The New Yorker had a rather funny article on this: here.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 16:53

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bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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devilsadvocate wrote:

2. Liberty Landing ferry allows dogs and I've never seen any issue result from it. And unfortunately, humans can urinate and defecate on the trains too (and do).

I had NO IDEA! I thought maybe you had it wrong, so I went on their site and confirmed it. I wish I had known their policies before. No extra charge for dogs, or bicycles. That's one of my pet peeves with NY Waterway service. I know who I'll be using going forward! Thanks.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 13:41

Vigilante

Re: Dog on Path

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I know plenty of people with fake service dog vests. I have seen dogs on PATH and the NYC Subway and they always seem to bring nothing but joy to other riders. Most people like dogs, for those who don't? Too bad.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 5:06

devilsadvocate

Re: Dog on Path

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A couple things based on the comments below:

1. It isn't hard to get actual service dog paperwork. It doesn't have to be "fake." Just go in, claim you have an anxiety disorder, then do some simple training and your dog will be a service dog.

2. Liberty Landing ferry allows dogs and I've never seen any issue result from it. And unfortunately, humans can urinate and defecate on the trains too (and do).

3. Like I said, you can have restrictions so that people who don't like dogs or just don't want to risk it won't need to ever come in contact. As for liability, it rests with the owner and a disclaimer should otherwise apply.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 4:36

JCMan8

Re: Dog on Path

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The issue with allowing dogs on the PATH and other forms of mass transportation has nothing to do with the owner's relationship with his or her dog. Personally I love dogs.

The issue has to do with others around them. The most obvious consideration is what if the dog bites someone? Also, what if the train gets stuck underground for a while and the dog shits or pisses on the floor? Or what if the train goes smoothly but an accident happens anyway? At the end of the day, dogs are still animals and we have no way of preventing this sort of stuff from occurring.

That's why dogs have to be in a crate in order to be allowed on the PATH. Note that I have no problem with people who bring tiny dogs in their purse or a bag because there is little to no risk that bad things can happen.

Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Some people treat their dogs like kids... would you rather they ride in an airline cabin or cargo bay? Probably cheaper than a doggie hotel too.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 2:57

TheBigGuy

Re: Dog on Path

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Some people treat their dogs like kids... would you rather they ride in an airline cabin or cargo bay? Probably cheaper than a doggie hotel too.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 2:35

bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

It definitely happens a lot more than you seem to think. Over in NYC, lots of merchants (especially grocers) have been complaining of more and more people showing up with dogs they claim are service dogs. The problem stems from the federal regulations. By federal law, a person is entitled to go pretty much anywhere with a service dog, and the only "proof" of a dog status is the word of the owner. BY LAW, only TWO questions can be presented to the owner of a dog when trying to determine if a dog is indeed a service dog:

1. Is your dog a service dog?
2. What service is the dog trained to provide or render?

Any other question is a violation of federal law. The idea was to ensure that people would not be denied their due rights. The end result was a ridiculous system in which ANYONE can claim their dog is a service dog because no regulation was set on what constitute a service animal, nor is there a set standard or benchmark.

It's a HUGE problem, and one that the federal government will need to address at some point.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 1:56

JCMan8

Re: Dog on Path

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Jerseymom,

I guess these things happen more frequently than I thought, though I've yet to see any dogs on the PATH that were not in someone's purse.

I like your last link. If this is really becoming a problem, it should become its own crime. Though I think public shaming should be part of the punishment. That is really stooping low.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 1:09

jerseymom

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

JCMan8 - it's important to remember that service dogs are for folks that are not always visually impaired (as I explained below).

And the cases of fakes happen frequently.

Excellent commentary from AKC

"Fake" service dogs now a crime in Florida

Posted on: 2015/12/30 0:55

JCMan8

Re: Dog on Path

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I think this fake service dog thing is more theory and fantasy than reality.

Someone has to be willing to go through the effort of outfitting their dog and/or obtaining the fake paperwork, pretending to be blind or visually impaired, running the risk they will encounter someone they know, and committing the crime of lying to a police officer if they get questioned and don't fess up.

I have a feeling there are very few if any cases of this actually happening.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 0:32

devilsadvocate

Re: Dog on Path

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Truthfully, this is why the best approach is to have smart regulations rather than outright bans. Perhaps allow dogs on the last two train wagons or something and/or during certain hours (like not during rush hour). Otherwise, people get forced into this fake service dog nonsense and no one is happy.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 23:33

MikeyTBC

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

JimmyMook wrote:
Can a pet dog ride PATH with out being stuck in a crate ?

Yup, just buy a "service dog" vest. Dozens of options online, many come with fake paperwork. Now you can skirt the law just like everyone else!

Posted on: 2015/12/28 15:58

bodhipooh

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
Quote:

heights wrote:
No....
Section (V) Personal Conduct
J.
1. No person shall enter in or upon PATH with any animal that is not
is not properly confined for shipment.
This does not apply to seeing eye dogs nor police dogs.
http://www.panynj.gov/path/rules-regs.html

Hi Heights - the term is "service dogs" (or other types of service animals) as animals have now been trained for a wide variety of service needs beyond those for the visually impaired including alerting to seizures; alerting to peanuts or other deadly allergen; alerting to blood sugar levels for diabetics; calming PTSD or anxiety disorders; providing assistance for those on the autism spectrum; etc.

If you see someone with a service dog, the dog may be wearing a vest letting you know "they're working." It's best not to approach a service animal uninvited as they're usually busy helping their human.

Obviously, you are correct jerseymom, but Heights was quoting from the PA website, and they actually used the same term he quoted. Goes to show the poor stewardship of the PA in their way to interact with the public...

From Section V, J (2):
A disabled person accompanied by the person's assistance animal such as a "seeing eye dog."

Posted on: 2015/12/27 18:24

jerseymom

Re: Dog on Path

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Quote:

heights wrote:
No....
Section (V) Personal Conduct
J.
1. No person shall enter in or upon PATH with any animal that is not
is not properly confined for shipment.
This does not apply to seeing eye dogs nor police dogs.
http://www.panynj.gov/path/rules-regs.html

Hi Heights - the term is "service dogs" (or other types of service animals) as animals have now been trained for a wide variety of service needs beyond those for the visually impaired including alerting to seizures; alerting to peanuts or other deadly allergen; alerting to blood sugar levels for diabetics; calming PTSD or anxiety disorders; providing assistance for those on the autism spectrum; etc.

If you see someone with a service dog, the dog may be wearing a vest letting you know "they're working." It's best not to approach a service animal uninvited as they're usually busy helping their human.

Posted on: 2015/12/27 16:06

heights

Re: Dog on Path

Home away from home

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Last Login :
7/5 23:54

From Western Slope

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Registered Users

Posts: 4638

No....
Section (V) Personal Conduct
J.
1. No person shall enter in or upon PATH with any animal that is not
is not properly confined for shipment.
This does not apply to seeing eye dogs nor police dogs.
http://www.panynj.gov/path/rules-regs.html

Posted on: 2015/12/27 15:04

Get on your bikes and ride !