MDM wrote:
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Pebble wrote:

This is a fun story, but only a story.

If you truly believe that the minimum wage employees, which do not even make up a penny per gallon, are going to cause a decrease in price, you are a fool.

Got any data to back up that labor "does not even make up a penny per gallon"?

The numbers bantered around is that labor makes up around $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon. So lets look at some data to see if those numbers are in the realm of reality:

Total number of gas attendants employed in NJ (2013): 10,470. {Source: Rutgers NJ Data Bank)

Average annual salary: $18,880 {Rutgers NJ Data Bank}

Total transportation fuel sold in NJ (2013): 3,981,726,000 gallons {Energy Information Admin assumes 42 gal per bbl}

Average Price per gallon (2013): $3.33 {calculated from data from EIA}

Now salary is not the wage cost. Salary does not include employer paid benefits, taxes, and other costs such as:

Employer paid social security / Medicare
Unemployment (higher cost than the employee portion)
State disability
Family leave
Workman's Comp
Liability insurance
Health insurance (if offered)

Typically all the above add about $0.40 for every dollar 'paid' to the employee. Without health insurance, you are probably looking at $0.30 added per every dollar paid (low tax states, it might be closer to $0.25).

So that gives a wage cost of $24,544 per pump jockey. This translates into a total cost in 2013 of $265,975,680, paid for by people filling up in NJ to cover full service. This translates into about $0.065 per gallon.

Therefor an estimate of $0.04 to $0.07 per gallon is reasonable and is a lot higher than a 'less than a penny'.

So what about the $0.15 to $0.30 per gallon difference in neighboring states between self and full serve? The reason is self-serve moves a lot more gasoline. This is from a study done back in 1950 when self-service was first coming into being:{Source: American Society of Planning Officials}

The chief advantage offered by the self-service station is an economic one ? gasoline prices have been reduced in some areas from 4 to 5 cents per gallon, or about 20 percent. The differential between prices offered by the self-serve and the conventional station is not as great where price wars have been initiated. The self-serve depends on volume: the conventional station averages around 14,000 to 22,000 gallons per month, while the average self-serve pumps about 150,000 gallons per month, with some stations pumping over a half million gallons in the same period. {emphasis mine}

This makes sense as a Sam's Club or Wawa that would have say 30 pumps would have 30 people pumping vs. a couple of guys running around to service the cars. More fuel means better wholesale purchase rates and the ability to make money on even tighter margins. So say you can move about 6x to 8x as much fuel with self-serve vs. full serve. So the $0.065 difference is really closer to $0.40 to $0.50 per gallon when accounting for the volume difference.

Plus there is the value of time. When using self serve with a swipe card function, I can be fueled and going in under 5 minutes. I have waited 15+ sometimes when the stations are really busy with full serve.


As for the 'fun story', the man's name who introduced self-serve in NJ was named Irving Reingold. He sued to have the self-serve ban lifted. You can read about him here:

and the legal case reference here:

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jerse ... urt/1951/6-n-j-182-0.html

Pebble wrote:

This is a fun story, but only a story.

If you truly believe that the minimum wage employees, which do not even make up a penny per gallon, are going to cause a decrease in price, you are a fool.

MidwestTransplant wrote:
Two points:

1) If both Gas Station A and Gas Station B now have reduced labor costs, unless they're colluding on price, one of the two will almost certainly reduce prices to win more business. The other will reduce prices to attempt to win back that business.

2) If one supports the full service mandate to maintain make-work jobs, how can one support ATMs, which reduce the need for bank tellers? Are they somehow different animals?

Adonis wrote:
Honestly, in my mind, I DON'T believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor. At least not in a dollar-for-dollar fashion. But are you so dumb that you think we, meaning the gas purchasing public, ARE NOT paying for that unnecessary labor right now? Because that would be the real idiotic position. It stands to reason that if the cost of the wasteful labor goes away then we, the gas purchasing public, would at least have our money funneled to more worthwhile functions.

Adonis wrote:
Honestly, in my mind, I DON'T believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor.

Adonis wrote:
It stands to reason that if the cost of the wasteful labor goes away then we, the gas purchasing public, would at least have our money funneled to more worthwhile functions.

MDM wrote:
Comparing full service gas price with NJ with other states is apples to oranges. NJ has a relatively low gas tax (I think we are the 2nd lowest in the 50 states). For example, New York state taxes gasoline about $0.30 per gallon more.

If you want to see what the labor adds to the price of gas, compare the self-serve vs. full serve price at a gas station say in NY or PA.

Gasoline retail has razor thin margins of about 2.5%. If self-serve was allowed, prices would go down because gas is a very competitive business. The first self serve station opened in NJ (back in the late '40s), pricing itself a few cents less per gallon if you pumped your own gas.

There was an unwritten agreement with all the gas stations that the price would be fixed at a certain rate. The self-serve station owner pissed off the cartel (to the point where the self-serve station was vandalized). The cartel then lobbied the state to ban self-serve. This is the reason we have the ban.. not to protect the consumer but to protect the profit margins of the gas station operators.

Pebble wrote:
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Adonis wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...

Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

As someone that's spent time traveling this country, we are rather fortunate that on the days when the weather is at its worst, we can sit comfortably in a warm car while someone else handles the labor.

On top of this our gas is still cheaper than just about anywhere.

Honestly, in your mind, do you believe that the companies will lower the price of fuel to accommodate the shortening of labor? If you do, then you are the dumbest person on the planet. Essentially, you are advocating for a reduction in service for the same price. I cannot think of anything more absurd.

Frinjc wrote:
+1 for changing the law. Let the suburbanites have some exercise! Besides, the money saved can easily be recaptured in a much needed increase in fuel tax to rebuild our roads - and that my friends is what our local economy needs.

Adonis wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...

Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

Monroe wrote:
In a rare coming of the minds Pebs and I are in agreement on this-and I'm annoyed at Declan trying to get this up for a vote, especially since he was so instrumental in shutting down Whizzy's red light camera thieving scam.

Adonis wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...

Ummm, how about so that I don't have unnecessarily idly wait for one of these slow poke attendants to fill up my car while I could perfectly well do it myself quicker?
How about it would decrease fraudulent credit card use since many of these credit card fraud cases are traced back to a visit to a gas station where you hand your card over to a criminal?
How about the fact that artificially keeping occupations in existence that otherwise would be obsolete has proven over and over again to be a ridiculous waste of resources?

Duh.

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

Same here. When it's raining or snowing outside, why would I want to get out of the car so that my hands could freeze? Besides, these are jobs that would disappear...

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".

i like having gas station attendants

brewster wrote:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... j_senate_president_s.html

I wonder who's lining Sweeneys pockets? Sadly we see this blindered politics all the the time. "The world does not exist beyond our borders, there's no examples or data out there to prove an idea right or wrong".