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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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The Cuban blog posts for 12/17 are incredibly moving.

If you read Spanish, check these out:

http://www.chiringadecuba.com/2014/12 ... l-bloqueo-cuba/#more-8898


http://www.14ymedio.com/blogs/generac ... cambios_7_1690100974.html


The first one talks about the joy and relief, how much the Cuban people had been waiting for such a day, that it feels like a miracle and people couldn't believe it was actually happening. That this day will be historical day for Cubans, much like the fall of the Berlin wall for the Germans, or the assassination of JFK for Americans. It brought tears to my eyes.

The second one hasa little bit of that, but it is more critical of the lack of a timeline or new policies on the side of Cuban government in order to lead the country to a more democratic society.

Posted on: 2014/12/24 15:33
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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borisp wrote:
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JPHurst wrote:
Actually, I always saw the Cuban emigres as more analogous to the Arabs who fought Israel. There was a war, they lost, and for generations they insist on undoing something that wont be undone.

Well, the Arabs attacked Israel with an intent to exterminate all the Jews. They wanted that for a long time. In 1941 Mufti of Jerusalem negotiated with Hitler trying to get his help in extending the "final solution" to the Holy Land.
Cuban emigres on the other hand weren't aggressors at all. They defended what was theirs against the murderous communist aggression.
In order to see an analogy here one has to be either very antisemitic, or very ignorant.


Yet, despite the fact that the Arabs attempted to slaughter the Jews guess who we're allies with? Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. I note that unlike Germany, these countries have more or less the same governments. So why not Cuba? Why is this where we should draw the line?


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Vigilante wrote:
Not the same thing genius. If you had escaped the Nazis and had the ability to go back and fight then I hope you would. A large percentage of Cubans in Miami are whiners and do nothings. Their best effort was when they kidnapped Elian Gonzalez and kept him from his father.

Not true. They went back and tried to fight, but President Kennedy who promised them backing, betrayed them.


No he didn't, Kennedy backed the emigres with the Bay of Pigs invasion. They lost because the USSR backed (and would have continued to back) the Cuban government and because they underestimated the Communist forces.

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Brewster wrote:
Had the US not been so ardent at supporting dictators, AKA "our bastards", throughout the Americas in the name of Liberty, perhaps some of those nations would have been more open to US style democracy and capitalism.

Well, it's a standard slogan, but it does match the reality. I know of few countries that the US took under its wing when they were in a pretty bad shape, like South Korea, Germany, Japan and others. And I am pretty sure that nowadays they look fine democracy-wise. And I know countries like South Vietnam and Iraq where we did promise support but then decided they don't deserve same treatment as the countries from the first list. We withdrew and, well, what followed wasn't pretty.


Some of these are not like the others. South Korea, Germany and Japan were culturally in entirely different places as compared to Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Different levels of education, histories of government corruption and autocratic and abusive governments, and different levels of ideological fanatacism. The US was not fighting insurgencies in the first 3 countries for any length of time because the countries were focused on rebuilding. The reason the US has no interest in staying in Afghanistan and Iraq is because we're not making much progress.

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It's not about ability, it's about decency. Do you not have any moral compass at all? Do you not see that it is immoral to befriend murderers and racists? Do you not understand that it's immoral to betray their victims?

When we dealt with the USSR and China at least we had a good excuse that we were trying to avoid a nuclear war! Why are you eager to "normalize" with the Cuban butchers?


We befriend murderers and racists all the time and have a solid history of fitting that description ourselves. So with that in mind, I still don't understand why we have sanctions on Cuba. I'm not saying we should be best friends with the Cuban government, but obviously the sanctions haven't worked. By the way, I'm not liberal and have no love for Communism, but idealism is a stupid way of conducting foreign policy.

Posted on: 2014/12/24 15:30
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Cuba?s Promising New Online Voices

By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

A diverse and growing community of bloggers in Cuba stand to benefit from their government?s improved relations with the United States.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/24/opi ... ng-new-online-voices.html

Posted on: 2014/12/24 15:17
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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hero69 wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
Why black Americans love Fidel Castro

When it came to matching words with deeds on the topic of racial equality, the most stalwart leader of the Western hemisphere, over the course of the 20th century, was Fidel Castro.


I say this as a black American who came to bond closely with Latin America as an adult, living in Mexico for almost two years, traveling and staying with families in the Dominican Republic, and making more than half a dozen visits to Cuba, where I strolled through its enchanting cities and drove into the far reaches of the countryside, forging relationships with its people, especially those of darker hue.



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interesting, but isn't the cuban elite of european descent, while those working in the sugarcane fields of african descent


In addition to the stupidity expressed by the column, as Cuba is a very racist country, the column also uses a double standard commonly employed in today's society. Notice the headline. The black author purports to speak on behalf of all Black Americans.


That column is one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever read I don't know where to start. I love it how he praises Castro for giving asylum to two different murderers who happen to be black, among other things. Yeah, that is someone to you want to love and idolize.

Posted on: 2014/12/24 3:13
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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hero69 wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
Why black Americans love Fidel Castro

When it came to matching words with deeds on the topic of racial equality, the most stalwart leader of the Western hemisphere, over the course of the 20th century, was Fidel Castro.


I say this as a black American who came to bond closely with Latin America as an adult, living in Mexico for almost two years, traveling and staying with families in the Dominican Republic, and making more than half a dozen visits to Cuba, where I strolled through its enchanting cities and drove into the far reaches of the countryside, forging relationships with its people, especially those of darker hue.



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interesting, but isn't the cuban elite of european descent, while those working in the sugarcane fields of african descent


In addition to the stupidity expressed by the column, as Cuba is a very racist country, the column also uses a double standard commonly employed in today's society. Notice the headline. The black author purports to speak on behalf of all Black Americans.

Posted on: 2014/12/24 2:12
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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user1111 wrote:
Why black Americans love Fidel Castro

When it came to matching words with deeds on the topic of racial equality, the most stalwart leader of the Western hemisphere, over the course of the 20th century, was Fidel Castro.


I say this as a black American who came to bond closely with Latin America as an adult, living in Mexico for almost two years, traveling and staying with families in the Dominican Republic, and making more than half a dozen visits to Cuba, where I strolled through its enchanting cities and drove into the far reaches of the countryside, forging relationships with its people, especially those of darker hue.



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interesting, but isn't the cuban elite of european descent, while those working in the sugarcane fields of african descent

Posted on: 2014/12/24 1:52
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Pebble wrote:
I'm really wondering about the sanity of some. Where is this "infatuation the extreme left have with Cuba." I would like some examples.

You pretty much have to go back to the late 60s and 70s, and look at the very hard/revolutionary left. E.g. Eldridge Cleaver went into exile in Cuba, Angela Davis traveled there, Michael Moore idolized their medical system in one of his documentaries, Chavez had very close ties with Castro, etc.

It's a pretty small group, though.

Posted on: 2014/12/24 0:49
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Why black Americans love Fidel Castro

When it came to matching words with deeds on the topic of racial equality, the most stalwart leader of the Western hemisphere, over the course of the 20th century, was Fidel Castro.


I say this as a black American who came to bond closely with Latin America as an adult, living in Mexico for almost two years, traveling and staying with families in the Dominican Republic, and making more than half a dozen visits to Cuba, where I strolled through its enchanting cities and drove into the far reaches of the countryside, forging relationships with its people, especially those of darker hue.



More

Posted on: 2014/12/23 22:49
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Pebble wrote:
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caj11 wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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caj11 wrote:
You know, I think its great that relations will be normalized and the embargo lifted too, as trying to isolate Cuba was not doing a damn thing to topple the communist regime there. However, I don't understand the extreme left's infatuation with Cuba either. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used to heavily praise Castro. Yet, despite the fact that the country is about 1/3 of African or Mestizo descent, there is not a single minority in a leadership position in the Castro regime. There never has been. Cuba on some counts may be a more racist country than the USA.

Furthermore, Cuba has been touted as a place where 100% of the people have access to modern health care. Yes, the 100% part may be true, but I am not so sure about the "modern" part. Communist party officials and foreigners with cash get to go to one set of hospitals that are clean and modern. The locals visit these squalid shitholes I wouldn't take a dog to. Cuba always used to harp on the fact that close to a 1/3 of Americans had no real health insurance, yet I haven't seen much criticism of their two-tiered system. Foreigners visiting Cuba go to certain beaches, stay at certain hotels and eat at certain restaurants where locals are not allowed to be (not that they could afford it anyway). Stores are also on a two-tiered system - the stores for foreigners and top government officials and the stores for the locals. You can guess which ones are better.

There is a great website with a lot of pictures that details everything pretty well. The part about "racism in Cuba" is especially interesting, but take the time to look at the hospitals, beaches and restaurants that the locals are restricted to, and what the foreigners visit while in Cuba. Here's the link:

www.therealcuba.com

I'm really wondering about the sanity of some. Where is this "infatuation the extreme left have with Cuba." I would like some examples.

In terms of politics, Communism does fall into the spectrum on the far left. However, that isn't what anyone here, other than communists, are asking for.


http://peoplesworld.org/jesse-jackson-visits-cuba/

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/10/1 ... son-speaks-cuban-embargo/

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/alsharpton.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-h ... r-human-rig_b_114836.html

And click on the previous link I sent on the part about "Racism in Cuba". It gives some very good details about Jesse Jackson's previous visits to Cuba.

Go look up any self-proclaimed Socialist politician in the USA, and chances are, they've made a statement about how great Cuba is.

I clicked the link you posted before and read each of the links you posted here. I'm failing to see the "infatuation" that you are claiming exists. I also don't see any praise for Castro in any of those articles.

As for your last comment, yes, useless Socialist Party candidates that almost never win elections sing the praises of Cuba. They are goofballs. What else do expect of them? Maybe you know better than me, but are there any relevant Socialist Party members?


Alright, maybe "infatuation" was too strong of a word. In any case, I hope you and other people looked at the www.therealcuba.com website which shows that Cuba is one big den of hypocrisy, inequality and racism, and maybe to an even greater degree than the USA (depending on how you look at it, especially since that is something rather subjective). I will not be visiting anytime soon.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 16:56
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Boris, if you can't see the differences in the how the populations participated between postwar Japan/Germany and postwar Iraq/Afghanistan, you're beyond hope or communication.

And as far as dealing with butchers, we supported MANY equally venal (and worse) butchers throughout the world in our "moral" war on communism. The moral high ground has been long been blown to bits, and for decades this has had far more to do with domestic politics than with any international ones. The case is poor for continued jihad against Cuba because THEIR gov't is terrible under the flag of communism vs other terrible ones under the flag of capitalism.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 16:32
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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borisp wrote:

Well, the Arabs attacked Israel with an intent to exterminate all the Jews. They wanted that for a long time. In 1941 Mufti of Jerusalem negotiated with Hitler trying to get his help in extending the "final solution" to the Holy Land.
Cuban emigres on the other hand weren't aggressors at all. They defended what was theirs against the murderous communist aggression.
In order to see an analogy here one has to be either very antisemitic, or very ignorant.




The analogy is that both lost, and have been rather pointlessly trying to undo that decades later.

In the case of Cuba, the losers got to come to America, and have done very well for themselves. In the case of the Middle East, the losers were forced to wallow in "refugee" status with the false promise that they would return to a country that does not exist.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 16:28
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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caj11 wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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caj11 wrote:
You know, I think its great that relations will be normalized and the embargo lifted too, as trying to isolate Cuba was not doing a damn thing to topple the communist regime there. However, I don't understand the extreme left's infatuation with Cuba either. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used to heavily praise Castro. Yet, despite the fact that the country is about 1/3 of African or Mestizo descent, there is not a single minority in a leadership position in the Castro regime. There never has been. Cuba on some counts may be a more racist country than the USA.

Furthermore, Cuba has been touted as a place where 100% of the people have access to modern health care. Yes, the 100% part may be true, but I am not so sure about the "modern" part. Communist party officials and foreigners with cash get to go to one set of hospitals that are clean and modern. The locals visit these squalid shitholes I wouldn't take a dog to. Cuba always used to harp on the fact that close to a 1/3 of Americans had no real health insurance, yet I haven't seen much criticism of their two-tiered system. Foreigners visiting Cuba go to certain beaches, stay at certain hotels and eat at certain restaurants where locals are not allowed to be (not that they could afford it anyway). Stores are also on a two-tiered system - the stores for foreigners and top government officials and the stores for the locals. You can guess which ones are better.

There is a great website with a lot of pictures that details everything pretty well. The part about "racism in Cuba" is especially interesting, but take the time to look at the hospitals, beaches and restaurants that the locals are restricted to, and what the foreigners visit while in Cuba. Here's the link:

www.therealcuba.com

I'm really wondering about the sanity of some. Where is this "infatuation the extreme left have with Cuba." I would like some examples.

In terms of politics, Communism does fall into the spectrum on the far left. However, that isn't what anyone here, other than communists, are asking for.


http://peoplesworld.org/jesse-jackson-visits-cuba/

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/10/1 ... son-speaks-cuban-embargo/

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/alsharpton.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-h ... r-human-rig_b_114836.html

And click on the previous link I sent on the part about "Racism in Cuba". It gives some very good details about Jesse Jackson's previous visits to Cuba.

Go look up any self-proclaimed Socialist politician in the USA, and chances are, they've made a statement about how great Cuba is.

I clicked the link you posted before and read each of the links you posted here. I'm failing to see the "infatuation" that you are claiming exists. I also don't see any praise for Castro in any of those articles.

As for your last comment, yes, useless Socialist Party candidates that almost never win elections sing the praises of Cuba. They are goofballs. What else do expect of them? Maybe you know better than me, but are there any relevant Socialist Party members?

Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:55
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Pebble wrote:
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caj11 wrote:
You know, I think its great that relations will be normalized and the embargo lifted too, as trying to isolate Cuba was not doing a damn thing to topple the communist regime there. However, I don't understand the extreme left's infatuation with Cuba either. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used to heavily praise Castro. Yet, despite the fact that the country is about 1/3 of African or Mestizo descent, there is not a single minority in a leadership position in the Castro regime. There never has been. Cuba on some counts may be a more racist country than the USA.

Furthermore, Cuba has been touted as a place where 100% of the people have access to modern health care. Yes, the 100% part may be true, but I am not so sure about the "modern" part. Communist party officials and foreigners with cash get to go to one set of hospitals that are clean and modern. The locals visit these squalid shitholes I wouldn't take a dog to. Cuba always used to harp on the fact that close to a 1/3 of Americans had no real health insurance, yet I haven't seen much criticism of their two-tiered system. Foreigners visiting Cuba go to certain beaches, stay at certain hotels and eat at certain restaurants where locals are not allowed to be (not that they could afford it anyway). Stores are also on a two-tiered system - the stores for foreigners and top government officials and the stores for the locals. You can guess which ones are better.

There is a great website with a lot of pictures that details everything pretty well. The part about "racism in Cuba" is especially interesting, but take the time to look at the hospitals, beaches and restaurants that the locals are restricted to, and what the foreigners visit while in Cuba. Here's the link:

www.therealcuba.com

I'm really wondering about the sanity of some. Where is this "infatuation the extreme left have with Cuba." I would like some examples.

In terms of politics, Communism does fall into the spectrum on the far left. However, that isn't what anyone here, other than communists, are asking for.


http://peoplesworld.org/jesse-jackson-visits-cuba/

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/10/1 ... son-speaks-cuban-embargo/

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/alsharpton.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-h ... r-human-rig_b_114836.html

And click on the previous link I sent on the part about "Racism in Cuba". It gives some very good details about Jesse Jackson's previous visits to Cuba.

Go look up any self-proclaimed Socialist politician in the USA, and chances are, they've made a statement about how great Cuba is.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:41
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:32
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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caj11 wrote:
You know, I think its great that relations will be normalized and the embargo lifted too, as trying to isolate Cuba was not doing a damn thing to topple the communist regime there. However, I don't understand the extreme left's infatuation with Cuba either. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used to heavily praise Castro. Yet, despite the fact that the country is about 1/3 of African or Mestizo descent, there is not a single minority in a leadership position in the Castro regime. There never has been. Cuba on some counts may be a more racist country than the USA.

Furthermore, Cuba has been touted as a place where 100% of the people have access to modern health care. Yes, the 100% part may be true, but I am not so sure about the "modern" part. Communist party officials and foreigners with cash get to go to one set of hospitals that are clean and modern. The locals visit these squalid shitholes I wouldn't take a dog to. Cuba always used to harp on the fact that close to a 1/3 of Americans had no real health insurance, yet I haven't seen much criticism of their two-tiered system. Foreigners visiting Cuba go to certain beaches, stay at certain hotels and eat at certain restaurants where locals are not allowed to be (not that they could afford it anyway). Stores are also on a two-tiered system - the stores for foreigners and top government officials and the stores for the locals. You can guess which ones are better.

There is a great website with a lot of pictures that details everything pretty well. The part about "racism in Cuba" is especially interesting, but take the time to look at the hospitals, beaches and restaurants that the locals are restricted to, and what the foreigners visit while in Cuba. Here's the link:

www.therealcuba.com

I'm really wondering about the sanity of some. Where is this "infatuation the extreme left have with Cuba." I would like some examples.

In terms of politics, Communism does fall into the spectrum on the far left. However, that isn't what anyone here, other than communists, are asking for.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:31
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:29
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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.


You know, I think its great that relations will be normalized and the embargo lifted too, as trying to isolate Cuba was not doing a damn thing to topple the communist regime there. However, I don't understand the extreme left's infatuation with Cuba either. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton used to heavily praise Castro. Yet, despite the fact that the country is about 1/3 of African or Mestizo descent, there is not a single minority in a leadership position in the Castro regime. There never has been. Cuba on some counts may be a more racist country than the USA.

Furthermore, Cuba has been touted as a place where 100% of the people have access to modern health care. Yes, the 100% part may be true, but I am not so sure about the "modern" part. Communist party officials and foreigners with cash get to go to one set of hospitals that are clean and modern. The locals visit these squalid shitholes I wouldn't take a dog to. Cuba always used to harp on the fact that close to a 1/3 of Americans had no real health insurance, yet I haven't seen much criticism of their two-tiered system. Foreigners visiting Cuba go to certain beaches, stay at certain hotels and eat at certain restaurants where locals are not allowed to be (not that they could afford it anyway). Stores are also on a two-tiered system - the stores for foreigners and top government officials and the stores for the locals. You can guess which ones are better.

There is a great website with a lot of pictures that details everything pretty well. The part about "racism in Cuba" is especially interesting, but take the time to look at the hospitals, beaches and restaurants that the locals are restricted to, and what the foreigners visit while in Cuba. Here's the link:

www.therealcuba.com

Posted on: 2014/12/19 15:24
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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trambone wrote:
Does anyone else see Cuba trying to make Cuban baseball into a Billion dollar industry? The Cuban baseball league may be on par with MLB, but the players do not make nearly as much money. Over the years many players have defected and have signed very lucrative contracts.

My question is would the cuban league sign these players over to MLB and have MLB teams pay huge posting fees to sign them and pocket most of the money?

Well, Tampa better get that new stadium or Havana could be a relocation site!

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Monroe wrote:
Obama in 2008-yet another 180 degree flip flop from his campaign promises.

?I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.

That?s the way to bring about real change in Cuba ? through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.?

At least I know what mouthpieces Limbaugh and Hannity are regurgitating?

Not for nothing, but six years is not a short time frame. Things change and sometimes people can review a bad policy and make adjustments. A lot of people have been calling for this for years.

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JCMan8 wrote:
Boris, you need to understand that many liberals have looked up to Castro and Cuba for decades.

For example, NYC mayor DeBlasio, who is one of the biggest liberals around, illegally snuck into communist Cuba and spent his honeymoon there.

Because of this admiration for Castro and Cuba, liberals make excuses for them. I am not sure of the reason behind this though.

Sometimes you post something that I can?t help but wonder how many hours you spend tilting at windmills. You can?t possibly believe that anyone but a sociopath ?looks up to Castro.?

As for DeBlasio, someone I?m no fan of, going to Cuba? big deal. It?s a Caribbean island that carries a certain cache of being stuck in the 1950?s. From people that I talked to that also went there illegally, they found it to be a lot of fun.

There is also a huge factor in wanting to see something that is considered a mystery. It?s why I was fascinated to stand in Tien Mien Square and even see Mao?s body despite the fact that he was a monstrous asshole.

I would highly suggest getting out more and experiencing other cultures and ideas. You don?t need to change your own, but you might have a better grasp of why some people choose to take vacations in certain places.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 13:50
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
JPHurst wrote:
Actually, I always saw the Cuban emigres as more analogous to the Arabs who fought Israel. There was a war, they lost, and for generations they insist on undoing something that wont be undone.

Well, the Arabs attacked Israel with an intent to exterminate all the Jews. They wanted that for a long time. In 1941 Mufti of Jerusalem negotiated with Hitler trying to get his help in extending the "final solution" to the Holy Land.
Cuban emigres on the other hand weren't aggressors at all. They defended what was theirs against the murderous communist aggression.
In order to see an analogy here one has to be either very antisemitic, or very ignorant.

Quote:
Vigilante wrote:
Not the same thing genius. If you had escaped the Nazis and had the ability to go back and fight then I hope you would. A large percentage of Cubans in Miami are whiners and do nothings. Their best effort was when they kidnapped Elian Gonzalez and kept him from his father.

Not true. They went back and tried to fight, but President Kennedy who promised them backing, betrayed them.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
Boris, pre-castro Cuba was the poster child for the kind of corruption and income inequality that drove a number of other US supported nations into the the arms of the "Marxists".

Yes, and in the Nazi Germany Jews were made to be "poster children" for corruption and income inequality. I can even show the actual posters if you want to take a look. I'm not sure how fascist-communists propaganda can be of any use in our discussion.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
Had the US not been so ardent at supporting dictators, AKA "our bastards", throughout the Americas in the name of Liberty, perhaps some of those nations would have been more open to US style democracy and capitalism.

Well, it's a standard slogan, but it does match the reality. I know of few countries that the US took under its wing when they were in a pretty bad shape, like South Korea, Germany, Japan and others. And I am pretty sure that nowadays they look fine democracy-wise. And I know countries like South Vietnam and Iraq where we did promise support but then decided they don't deserve same treatment as the countries from the first list. We withdrew and, well, what followed wasn't pretty.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
This is NOT a defence of the Castro regime and it's human rights abuses.

Yes. It is.
You are trying to excuse the commie murderers by telling a story of corruption and US wrong behavior.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
If we can normalize with China, Vietnam and the USSR, we can do it with Cuba.

Yes, and we could have normalized it with Hitler too.

It's not about ability, it's about decency. Do you not have any moral compass at all? Do you not see that it is immoral to befriend murderers and racists? Do you not understand that it's immoral to betray their victims?

When we dealt with the USSR and China at least we had a good excuse that we were trying to avoid a nuclear war! Why are you eager to "normalize" with the Cuban butchers?



Sorry boris, Bay of Pigs was 50 years ago. Since then? It's been a bitch-fest.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 10:59
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Boris, you need to understand that many liberals have looked up to Castro and Cuba for decades.

For example, NYC mayor DeBlasio, who is one of the biggest liberals around, illegally snuck into communist Cuba and spent his honeymoon there.

Because of this admiration for Castro and Cuba, liberals make excuses for them. I am not sure of the reason behind this though.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 5:35
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Quote:
JPHurst wrote:
Actually, I always saw the Cuban emigres as more analogous to the Arabs who fought Israel. There was a war, they lost, and for generations they insist on undoing something that wont be undone.

Well, the Arabs attacked Israel with an intent to exterminate all the Jews. They wanted that for a long time. In 1941 Mufti of Jerusalem negotiated with Hitler trying to get his help in extending the "final solution" to the Holy Land.
Cuban emigres on the other hand weren't aggressors at all. They defended what was theirs against the murderous communist aggression.
In order to see an analogy here one has to be either very antisemitic, or very ignorant.

Quote:
Vigilante wrote:
Not the same thing genius. If you had escaped the Nazis and had the ability to go back and fight then I hope you would. A large percentage of Cubans in Miami are whiners and do nothings. Their best effort was when they kidnapped Elian Gonzalez and kept him from his father.

Not true. They went back and tried to fight, but President Kennedy who promised them backing, betrayed them.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
Boris, pre-castro Cuba was the poster child for the kind of corruption and income inequality that drove a number of other US supported nations into the the arms of the "Marxists".

Yes, and in the Nazi Germany Jews were made to be "poster children" for corruption and income inequality. I can even show the actual posters if you want to take a look. I'm not sure how fascist-communists propaganda can be of any use in our discussion.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
Had the US not been so ardent at supporting dictators, AKA "our bastards", throughout the Americas in the name of Liberty, perhaps some of those nations would have been more open to US style democracy and capitalism.

Well, it's a standard slogan, but it does match the reality. I know of few countries that the US took under its wing when they were in a pretty bad shape, like South Korea, Germany, Japan and others. And I am pretty sure that nowadays they look fine democracy-wise. And I know countries like South Vietnam and Iraq where we did promise support but then decided they don't deserve same treatment as the countries from the first list. We withdrew and, well, what followed wasn't pretty.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
This is NOT a defence of the Castro regime and it's human rights abuses.

Yes. It is.
You are trying to excuse the commie murderers by telling a story of corruption and US wrong behavior.

Quote:
Brewster wrote:
If we can normalize with China, Vietnam and the USSR, we can do it with Cuba.

Yes, and we could have normalized it with Hitler too.

It's not about ability, it's about decency. Do you not have any moral compass at all? Do you not see that it is immoral to befriend murderers and racists? Do you not understand that it's immoral to betray their victims?

When we dealt with the USSR and China at least we had a good excuse that we were trying to avoid a nuclear war! Why are you eager to "normalize" with the Cuban butchers?

Posted on: 2014/12/19 5:29
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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I disagree a bit, because while no politician can predict future events (like pension collapse, or a financial crisis) Obama has cravenly, time and again, either flip flopped or outright lied. His comments a few years ago about the unconstitutional steps he just took on illegal immigration are but another example-he claimed he didn't have the authority to do it. Now he says he does. For a supposed constitutional 'expert', I'll ask-what changed? I give him a pass on his former anti-gay marriage stance, however, even though I think that was also political rather than a change of heart.

In any case, I don't oppose it, but I'm disappointed he didn't negotiate at all and just gave the Castro's the old 'ole'.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
I think the likely explanation was that this lie, along with 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor' were designed to trick people into voting for him that would not have if he spoke the truth of his position. Retirees AND south Florida, ya 'know.


That explanation applies to literally every politician (remember Christie's open letter to the firefighters' and teachers' unions where he swore he would not diminish their pensions in any way?). So while it is true, it is not saying much.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 2:15
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Monroe wrote:
I think the likely explanation was that this lie, along with 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor' were designed to trick people into voting for him that would not have if he spoke the truth of his position. Retirees AND south Florida, ya 'know.


That explanation applies to literally every politician (remember Christie's open letter to the firefighters' and teachers' unions where he swore he would not diminish their pensions in any way?). So while it is true, it is not saying much.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 1:58
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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The embargo is still in effect, because only Congress can change it and we know that a Republican led Congress is incapable of achieving anything productive.

Nevertheless the administration maintained the status quo for six years. And with diplomacy and negotiations we have reached a point where we can normalize relations with the country.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 1:56
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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I think the likely explanation was that this lie, along with 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor' were designed to trick people into voting for him that would not have if he spoke the truth of his position. Retirees AND south Florida, ya 'know.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 1:16
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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One word: RealPolitik.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 1:11
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Monroe wrote:
Ask Obama why he caved, not me. I'm just pointing out it's another example of 'how do you tell when Obama is lying? His lips are moving'.

Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Obama in 2008-yet another 180 degree flip flop from his campaign promises.

?I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.

That?s the way to bring about real change in Cuba ? through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.?
bullshit. why the double standard with cuba when the us has decent relations with china, saudi arabia, egypt, jordan, algeria and the us supported every single latin american dictatorship as well as pro-american dictatorships in africa, asia and europe!
well, sweetie, there are positive lies and negative, pernicious lies! fortunately, for america, obama's lies are intended to do good.

Posted on: 2014/12/19 1:01
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Ask Obama why he caved, not me. I'm just pointing out it's another example of 'how do you tell when Obama is lying? His lips are moving'.

Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Obama in 2008-yet another 180 degree flip flop from his campaign promises.

?I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.

That?s the way to bring about real change in Cuba ? through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.?
bullshit. why the double standard with cuba when the us has decent relations with china, saudi arabia, egypt, jordan, algeria and the us supported every single latin american dictatorship as well as pro-american dictatorships in africa, asia and europe!

Posted on: 2014/12/19 0:39
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Obama in 2008-yet another 180 degree flip flop from his campaign promises.

?I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.

That?s the way to bring about real change in Cuba ? through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.?
bullshit. why the double standard with cuba when the us has decent relations with china, saudi arabia, egypt, jordan, algeria and the us supported every single latin american dictatorship as well as pro-american dictatorships in africa, asia and europe!

Posted on: 2014/12/19 0:34
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Re: can i go to cuba now? Useles menendez must be pissed
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Obama in 2008-yet another 180 degree flip flop from his campaign promises.

?I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations.

That?s the way to bring about real change in Cuba ? through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.?

Posted on: 2014/12/18 23:50
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