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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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JPhurst wrote:

Oh, and millions more have health insurance too.



Wow wee!! Millions more have health insurance that they are still not paying for!!! Fuckin' great.

Posted on: 2014/12/8 16:52
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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JPhurst wrote:
Hundreds of thousands of jobs are being created each month.

All unemployment stats, whether U3 or U5, U6, show the same downward trends.

So right wingers now pull "labor participation rate" out of their ass.

A lot of the factors affecting the economy are beyond the control of politicians. Nevertheless we had good stewardship from the Obama administration, although it could have been a more effective stimulus with more direct spending.

Oh, and millions more have health insurance too.


You may curse the "labor participation rate" as much as you want to, but the facts are simple and so is the arithmetic: (a) the population is growing, (b) because the population is growing we need to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs each month just to keep the unemployment rate stable, just to compensate for that growth in population, (c) arithmetic shows that without people dropping out of the labor force the number of jobs we have been creating since the end of recession in July 2009 would NOT cover the growth in population. That's all there is to it.

As for the "more effective stimulus", let me remind you that we have been "stimulating" so much that the gross federal debt grew from 10 to 18 trillion dollars in just a few years. If Keynesian ideas about stimulating economy by government spending were not totally insane we would have seen some effects by now.

Finally, as I told you already, it matters not how many people have insurance. What matters is how many people can pay for healthcare. That's the goal - to be able to pay, not to have a piece of paper that says "insurance policy". Is this so hard to understand?

Posted on: 2014/12/8 13:37
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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He is an interesting fact;

2/3 bankruptcies are as a result of medical bills - believe it or not!

And this was a fact before Obama even came into office!

Posted on: 2014/12/8 5:13
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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JPhurst wrote:
Hundreds of thousands of jobs are being created each month.

All unemployment stats, whether U3 or U5, U6, show the same downward trends.

So right wingers now pull "labor participation rate" out of their ass.

A lot of the factors affecting the economy are beyond the control of politicians. Nevertheless we had good stewardship from the Obama administration, although it could have been a more effective stimulus with more direct spending.

Oh, and millions more have health insurance too.

jphurst, don't tell me that you and the other uberliberals have learned yet that the only right way to do things in the right(wing) way. i'm so glad i suddenly saw the light and became a republican; i'm so much more popular at work where we praise gwb's economic policies and condemn those of uberliberal obama

Posted on: 2014/12/8 3:08
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Hundreds of thousands of jobs are being created each month.

All unemployment stats, whether U3 or U5, U6, show the same downward trends.

So right wingers now pull "labor participation rate" out of their ass.

A lot of the factors affecting the economy are beyond the control of politicians. Nevertheless we had good stewardship from the Obama administration, although it could have been a more effective stimulus with more direct spending.

Oh, and millions more have health insurance too.


Posted on: 2014/12/8 2:51
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Health Care Spending Slows to Lowest Levels since 1960 ...
Uninsured Rate Continues to Drop ...
Obamacare Enrollment is Strong in First Two Weeks...

Three problems with that. First, these stats are what can be called "bs". Consider the very first link that you gave. There is a nice graph there that shows most clearly that there is no special drop in "health care slowing" due to Obamacare. There is long trend down. There is no special change neither in 2010 when the law was passed nor in 2013 when it came into effect.
Second problem, those stats don't matter compared to "how many people avoid going to a doctor because they can't pay". Having insurance is not a goal. Insurance is a tool to solve the "how to pay for the healthcare" goal. It matters not how great your success is with a tool, if you fxxxed up the goal!
Third problem, when you lie about "if you like your insurance you can keep it", and people lose their plans and have nowhere to go, you don't get to brag about how great is enrollment in your system. In the USSR the enrollment in the government-paid free medical system was 100% and it was frequently pointed out as a great achievement of the socialism.

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Pebble wrote:
There are a lot of baby boomers retiring these days and the birth rates have declined. That is something often ignored, mostly because it doesn't fit with the agenda of those that are trying to make the argument.

May be it's because you didn't understand the argument. The argument was not "Obama made employment participation drop". The argument is "100% of the unemployment reduction is explained by the drop in employment participation". It doesn't matter WHY the participation dropped.

What matters is that at the official end of the recession, in July 09, the participation was 65.5%. And now it's 62.8%. Unemployment right now is 5.8% which means 3.64% (5.8% * 62.8%) of the WHOLE population are unemployed. Now, imagine that those 2.7% of the population who dropped out of the labor force didn't drop out, and are among the unemployed today (since there are no jobs for them). If that happened the percentage of the unemployed in the whole population would have been 6.34% (3.64% + 2.7%), and the unemployment rate would have been 9.68% (6.34% / 65.5%). That's actually HIGHER than 9.5% in July 2009.

That means that actually slightly more than 100% of the unemployment drop during Obama is due to the shrinking of the labor force. And the job creation in the same period was insufficient to even maintain the unemployment level, not talking about actually reducing it!

Posted on: 2014/12/7 21:29
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
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The overall unemployment rate stayed at 5.8 and remains at its lowest point in over six years.


The unemployment rate is only low because it does not count people who have given up looking for work. We have the lowest employment participation rate since the "economic boom" experienced under the Cater administration:


Resized Image

That Cater was an often forgotten president...

There are a lot of baby boomers retiring these days and the birth rates have declined. That is something often ignored, mostly because it doesn't fit with the agenda of those that are trying to make the argument.

Exatly!!!!

And I doubt someone who was 35 in 1978 is still looking for a full time gig in 2014... Also American women gave birth to 3,932,181 babies in 2013 as the nation?s birthrate fell to another record low, federal researchers reported Thursday.

l
The total number of births declined for the sixth straight year, with only 62.5 babies born for every 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44. The birthrate has dropped 10% since peaking in 2007.

http://www.latimes.com/science/scienc ... c-low-20141203-story.html

Posted on: 2014/12/5 19:49
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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MDM wrote:
Quote:

The overall unemployment rate stayed at 5.8 and remains at its lowest point in over six years.


The unemployment rate is only low because it does not count people who have given up looking for work. We have the lowest employment participation rate since the "economic boom" experienced under the Cater administration:


Resized Image

That Cater was an often forgotten president...

There are a lot of baby boomers retiring these days and the birth rates have declined. That is something often ignored, mostly because it doesn't fit with the agenda of those that are trying to make the argument.

Posted on: 2014/12/5 15:22
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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The overall unemployment rate stayed at 5.8 and remains at its lowest point in over six years.


The unemployment rate is only low because it does not count people who have given up looking for work. We have the lowest employment participation rate since the "economic boom" experienced under the Cater administration:


Resized Image

Posted on: 2014/12/5 15:06
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Remember when Obamacare would wreck the economy?
The new report from Bureau of Labor Statistics shows the U.S. economy added 321,000 jobs in November. The overall unemployment rate stayed at 5.8 and remains at its lowest point in over six years.

Posted on: 2014/12/5 14:47
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Quote:

borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:

See, opinion is what is referred to as qualitative analysis. All of the quantitative analysis states that it is a massive win. Qualitative analysis gives us the idea that American Idol is a wonderful show due to the amount of fans watching.


The much advertised goal of the obamacare was to reduce the number of people who can't afford medical care, and to reduce prices for all. Now, allow me to quote this again:

Gallup: Peak Number Of Americans Delaying Medical Care Over Costs

"One in three Americans has put off seeking medical treatment in 2014 due to high costs, according to Gallup ? the highest percentage since Gallup began asking the question in 2001.
Thirty-three percent of Americans have delayed medical treatment for themselves or their families because of the costs they?d have to pay, according to the survey. Obamacare, of course, had promised that it would help make health care more affordable for everyone, but the number of people who can?t afford a trip to the doctor has actually risen three points since 2013, before most Obamacare provisions took effect.
The hardest-hit: the middle-class. "


How do you like them quantitative analysis?

Obamacare is definitely a "massive win" for insurance companies reflected in their stock prices.
For the rest of us it is massive all right, but "win" no.



Or?

Health Care Spending Slows to Lowest Levels since 1960
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/w ... pisrc=nl-wnkpm&wpmm=1

Quote:

?The United States spent $2.9 trillion on health care in 2013, or about $9,255 per person, according to a new detailed accounting of the nation?s health care dollars. The 2013 totals represent just 3.6 percent growth in national health spending from 2012 ? the lowest annual growth rate since 1960, according to a federal report published in the policy journal Health Affairs.?


and...

Uninsured Rate Continues to Drop

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20141203/NEWS/312039948

Quote:

?The number of uninsured non-elderly adults has dropped by more than 10 million since the launch of state and federal exchanges last year, according to the latest data from the Urban Institute?s Health Reform Monitoring Survey.?

?The uninsured rate nationwide was 12.4% in September, down roughly 30% from 17.5% a year earlier. The quarterly survey has recorded a steady reduction in the rate of uninsured over the last year. The Urban Institute?s data tracks other reports that have shown a significant decrease in the uninsured rate since the full implementation of Obamacare.?


and...

Obamacare Enrollment is Strong in First Two Weeks

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/ ... macare-in-first-two-weeks

Quote:

?About 1.5 million people applied for ObamaCare plans in the first two weeks of open enrollment, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) said Wednesday.?

?Out of the total applications submitted, about 765,000 plans have already been picked, according to a weekly enrollment snapshot released by the agency.?

?The total is still a long way off from the HHS?s goal of signing up 9.1 million people this year, though it far outpaces early figures from last year, when a dysfunctional website prevented people from logging on for several weeks.?


Now, maybe you don't like the numbers but the one that stands out to me is the total cost of insurance spent by the government. I was under the impression that you were in favor of less government spending.
isn't it outraqgeous that the obama's socialist dream is giving access to medical care to the previoulsy uninsured on the government's (ie taxpers') dime. obama should know that god wants the poor to help themselves which is why the rich get priority access to heaven

Posted on: 2014/12/4 18:45
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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borisp wrote:
Quote:
Pebble wrote:

See, opinion is what is referred to as qualitative analysis. All of the quantitative analysis states that it is a massive win. Qualitative analysis gives us the idea that American Idol is a wonderful show due to the amount of fans watching.


The much advertised goal of the obamacare was to reduce the number of people who can't afford medical care, and to reduce prices for all. Now, allow me to quote this again:

Gallup: Peak Number Of Americans Delaying Medical Care Over Costs

"One in three Americans has put off seeking medical treatment in 2014 due to high costs, according to Gallup ? the highest percentage since Gallup began asking the question in 2001.
Thirty-three percent of Americans have delayed medical treatment for themselves or their families because of the costs they?d have to pay, according to the survey. Obamacare, of course, had promised that it would help make health care more affordable for everyone, but the number of people who can?t afford a trip to the doctor has actually risen three points since 2013, before most Obamacare provisions took effect.
The hardest-hit: the middle-class. "


How do you like them quantitative analysis?

Obamacare is definitely a "massive win" for insurance companies reflected in their stock prices.
For the rest of us it is massive all right, but "win" no.



Or?

Health Care Spending Slows to Lowest Levels since 1960
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/w ... pisrc=nl-wnkpm&wpmm=1

Quote:

?The United States spent $2.9 trillion on health care in 2013, or about $9,255 per person, according to a new detailed accounting of the nation?s health care dollars. The 2013 totals represent just 3.6 percent growth in national health spending from 2012 ? the lowest annual growth rate since 1960, according to a federal report published in the policy journal Health Affairs.?


and...

Uninsured Rate Continues to Drop

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20141203/NEWS/312039948

Quote:

?The number of uninsured non-elderly adults has dropped by more than 10 million since the launch of state and federal exchanges last year, according to the latest data from the Urban Institute?s Health Reform Monitoring Survey.?

?The uninsured rate nationwide was 12.4% in September, down roughly 30% from 17.5% a year earlier. The quarterly survey has recorded a steady reduction in the rate of uninsured over the last year. The Urban Institute?s data tracks other reports that have shown a significant decrease in the uninsured rate since the full implementation of Obamacare.?


and...

Obamacare Enrollment is Strong in First Two Weeks

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/ ... macare-in-first-two-weeks

Quote:

?About 1.5 million people applied for ObamaCare plans in the first two weeks of open enrollment, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) said Wednesday.?

?Out of the total applications submitted, about 765,000 plans have already been picked, according to a weekly enrollment snapshot released by the agency.?

?The total is still a long way off from the HHS?s goal of signing up 9.1 million people this year, though it far outpaces early figures from last year, when a dysfunctional website prevented people from logging on for several weeks.?


Now, maybe you don't like the numbers but the one that stands out to me is the total cost of insurance spent by the government. I was under the impression that you were in favor of less government spending.

Posted on: 2014/12/4 18:03
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Pebble wrote:

See, opinion is what is referred to as qualitative analysis. All of the quantitative analysis states that it is a massive win. Qualitative analysis gives us the idea that American Idol is a wonderful show due to the amount of fans watching.


The much advertised goal of the obamacare was to reduce the number of people who can't afford medical care, and to reduce prices for all. Now, allow me to quote this again:

Gallup: Peak Number Of Americans Delaying Medical Care Over Costs

"One in three Americans has put off seeking medical treatment in 2014 due to high costs, according to Gallup ? the highest percentage since Gallup began asking the question in 2001.
Thirty-three percent of Americans have delayed medical treatment for themselves or their families because of the costs they?d have to pay, according to the survey. Obamacare, of course, had promised that it would help make health care more affordable for everyone, but the number of people who can?t afford a trip to the doctor has actually risen three points since 2013, before most Obamacare provisions took effect.
The hardest-hit: the middle-class. "


How do you like them quantitative analysis?

Obamacare is definitely a "massive win" for insurance companies reflected in their stock prices.
For the rest of us it is massive all right, but "win" no.


Posted on: 2014/12/3 5:54
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Monroe wrote:
Nope. Americans, overwhelmingly, oppose Obamacare. Every single poll affirms that.

Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Chuck Schumer, the country's #3 Democrat, said that Obamacare was a mistake.

?Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them? in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. ?We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem -- health care reform.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/art ... care-in-2010-schumer-says

Yes, if your number one priority is getting your party elected, then I can see that being a valid argument. However, since Obamacare has been a massive success for millions of Americans, it is a good thing the Democrats went ahead and pushed through the bill.

See, opinion is what is referred to as qualitative analysis. All of the quantitative analysis states that it is a massive win. Qualitative analysis gives us the idea that American Idol is a wonderful show due to the amount of fans watching.

Posted on: 2014/12/1 16:09
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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I'm not sure what else Schumer wanted to do to "fix the economy." In those first two years, Congress and the Administration passed the stimulus bill, saved the American auto industry, reformed the financial services industry to prevent the abuses that led to the recession. Whether those programs were effective or desirable, and whether more could or should be done, can certainly be debated. But to say we had to continue to "fix the economy" makes no sense.

On top of that, the Affordable Care Act did in many ways help the economy. By decoupling the ability to get health insurance from employment, it is creating a flexible labor market.

I was following the crafting of the Affordable Care Act somewhat regularly. From my perspective, and this is just a perspective, the crucial moment that caused discontent with the Democrats to both spread wider, and take deeper root, was the Senate placing the final touches on the bill.

The Obama administration worked tirelessly to get bipartisan support for the bill, to the extent that they were willing to do just about anything even to get one Republican Senator (Susan Collins was the most often talked about) to vote Aye. No Republican would cooperate.

Pelosi, Hoyer, and the democratic leadership in the House did their job, whipping the vote to pass a bill. Because the House rules don't require a supermajority, Pelosi had an easier job of it, able to get the bill through without allowing Democratic "No" votes to take center stage. At that point, although the Republicans loudly objected, it was being portrayed as a "win" for the Obama administration as well as Democratic leadership in Congress.

So that meant that the Senate had to get all the Democrats/Independents to vote for closure. Senators Lieberman and Ben Nelson (especially Nelson) made a huge to do about objecting to various portions of the bill, particularly the "public option" that was a feature of the House Bill. So basically the spectacle became Harry Reid and the administration trying to do everything possible to cajole a yes vote out of them. Those couple of days were a tortured process and made everyone involved look bad.

Lots of things happened after that, such as Scott Brown winning a special election, requiring the convoluted "reconciliation" process to get the bill passed, the legal battle that made it's way to the Supreme Court, the sloppy rollout of the website, the initial wave of rescission/cancellation notices. But I still think that the initial pushback by nominally Democratic Senators looking to showoff their "moderate" bona fides was where the administration and Democratic leadership began to lose control of how the debate was framed.

Posted on: 2014/12/1 15:54
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Nope. Americans, overwhelmingly, oppose Obamacare. Every single poll affirms that.

Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Chuck Schumer, the country's #3 Democrat, said that Obamacare was a mistake.

?Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them? in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. ?We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem -- health care reform.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/art ... care-in-2010-schumer-says

Yes, if your number one priority is getting your party elected, then I can see that being a valid argument. However, since Obamacare has been a massive success for millions of Americans, it is a good thing the Democrats went ahead and pushed through the bill.

Posted on: 2014/12/1 15:48
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JCMan8 wrote:
Chuck Schumer, the country's #3 Democrat, said that Obamacare was a mistake.

?Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them? in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. ?We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem -- health care reform.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/art ... care-in-2010-schumer-says

Yes, if your number one priority is getting your party elected, then I can see that being a valid argument. However, since Obamacare has been a massive success for millions of Americans, it is a good thing the Democrats went ahead and pushed through the bill.

Posted on: 2014/12/1 15:21
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Chuck Schumer, the country's #3 Democrat, said that Obamacare was a mistake.

?Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them? in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. ?We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem -- health care reform.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/art ... care-in-2010-schumer-says

Posted on: 2014/12/1 1:37
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Gallup: Peak Number Of Americans Delaying Medical Care Over Costs

"One in three Americans has put off seeking medical treatment in 2014 due to high costs, according to Gallup ? the highest percentage since Gallup began asking the question in 2001.

Thirty-three percent of Americans have delayed medical treatment for themselves or their families because of the costs they?d have to pay, according to the survey. Obamacare, of course, had promised that it would help make health care more affordable for everyone, but the number of people who can?t afford a trip to the doctor has actually risen three points since 2013, before most Obamacare provisions took effect.

The hardest-hit: the middle-class. "

Spin that.


Posted on: 2014/11/30 21:28
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JCMan8 wrote:
Gallup: 'New numerical low' for Obamacare

Support for Obamacare continues to decline, with the law hitting a new low in approval, and a new high in disapproval, as the second enrollment period has opened for Americans, according to Gallup.

Just 37 percent approve of the Affordable Care Act, 1 percentage point less than the previous low recorded in January, Gallup found in a new survey released Monday.


http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11 ... care-approval-112948.html

Opinion doesn't equal effectiveness.

A lot of people seem to be a sucker for a narrative that is belied by facts.

Posted on: 2014/11/17 16:08
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10 years ago most americans were vehemently apposed to gay marriage...decades ago, people thought that women should not vote or that a black male vote was only 1/6 or 1/3? of a white male vote....weren't voters outraged when social security was introduced?

now, that is a CRUCIAL lifeline for many!

Posted on: 2014/11/17 15:48
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Gallup: 'New numerical low' for Obamacare

Support for Obamacare continues to decline, with the law hitting a new low in approval, and a new high in disapproval, as the second enrollment period has opened for Americans, according to Gallup.

Just 37 percent approve of the Affordable Care Act, 1 percentage point less than the previous low recorded in January, Gallup found in a new survey released Monday.


http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11 ... care-approval-112948.html

Posted on: 2014/11/17 15:26
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I was wondering if there is arbitrage play here with healthcare? i know its cheaper to get drugs in canada, but is it cheaper to have prescriptions filled in florida or texas? is it cheaper to see a doctor in texas or florida or ohio than in ny or nj? are the doctors at walgreens and cvs a good option? how much?

i know someone who flew to peru for a root canal and the prices (all-in) were still q fraction of what it would cost here

Posted on: 2014/11/16 11:53
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Posted on: 2014/11/15 20:58
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Quote:

oJcanuC wrote:
Quote:

hero69 wrote:
some more objective info on obamacare

http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/obamacare-assessed


Objective!? Consider the article's reliance on the Census Bureau. Then read this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillma ... in-government-statistics/

All from a president who promised a change and more transparency instead of taking the current state and making it worse.
ask themillions of people who had no health care if the system is worse

Posted on: 2014/11/15 12:54
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Quote:

hero69 wrote:
some more objective info on obamacare

http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/obamacare-assessed


Objective!? Consider the article's reliance on the Census Bureau. Then read this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillma ... in-government-statistics/

All from a president who promised a change and more transparency instead of taking the current state and making it worse.

Posted on: 2014/11/15 7:10
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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hero69 wrote:
some more objective info on obamacare

http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/obamacare-assessed


I like objective info. But did you see the most important part? The part about the bottom line?

"Cost of coverage: For people covered through their employers, premium increases for 2014 were nominal. They were significant, however, for people buying individual plans who made too much money to qualify for a subsidy. EHealth, an insurance broker, said the average premium for a user of its service jumped from $426 a month to $667."

That is over a 50% premium increase in one year. On a national level.

Posted on: 2014/11/15 7:09
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Posted on: 2014/11/15 3:32
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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well, i do agree that the typical american voter is not the smartest. i always find it amusing people say let's attack a country when they don't even know where the country is

Posted on: 2014/11/15 1:38
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Re: Obamacare...creating more working poor.
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Maddow's follower's don't seem to get that he's even more biased than someone like Rush.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 22:10
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