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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
 
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So, basically, according to you one and the same thing may be grossly unfair when applied to someone like yourself, but perfectly ok when applied to someone more successful? I probably already told this story, back in the USSR there was a joke that American happiness is when you save enough money to buy a second cow, - while Russian happiness is when you neighbor's cow dies. Well, we were wrong, seems like envy and hate are things universal.
Posted on: 2014/7/5 3:17
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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The whole point is it shouldn't apply to you. It was intended only to be applied against the wealthiest of the wealthy, but of course our government got greedy and has greatly expanded it's use. Also I have no problem with a tax designed to prevent family dynasties (I think most agree they are bad for society) as long as that money is being reallocated properly. The problem is it isn't. Government has no clue what to do with the money and I'm sure a lot is funneled for corrupt purposes such as paying defense contractors. So I agree the present state of affairs is grossly unfair.
Posted on: 2014/7/3 20:47
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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That linked article was a messy hodge podge of liberal, religious and socialist ideas. He tried to make a point by mixing all those viewpoints and ended up making it confusing and nonsensical. And, he muddied the issue by not being clear in the distinction between inheritance taxes and estate taxes.
Generally speaking, inheritance taxes and estate taxes are different in that the estate tax is levied against the estate of the deceased, while the inheritance tax is levied on the money and property received by a beneficiary. Regardless, a person that has worked hard all his/her life, who along the way has paid taxes on his earnings and the fruit of his labors, is faced with paying an additional tax upon his/her death, and his/her beneficiaries will also have to pay a tax on whatever they receive (which, in NJ, has already been taxed twice - in life, and then at death). How is this, in anyone's mind, possibly OK or fair??
Posted on: 2014/7/3 20:30
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Taxes are meant to fund government for the public good, not be social engineering for those who feel they know better than you what to do with your money.
Posted on: 2014/7/3 17:51
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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They are intended to prevent extreme concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few, creating literal dynasties. I think they are well-intentioned. The problem is in their execution. First it should be obvious they have utterly failed in their goal of reducing extreme concentrations of wealth. Moreover, they should not be applicable to 99% of people, as I agree the concept is inherently unfair if applied to many. Their point is to better society, and I'm not sure they are doing so. Here is a good article on the subject. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisf ... 07/comment.inheritancetax
Posted on: 2014/7/3 17:27
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Inheritance taxes are really some of the most unfair/evil taxes. Money being passed on to heirs, after it has already been taxed in the past, makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. I work REALLY hard, I pay my fair share of taxes, I then pay taxes on my savings as well, and then, when I finally kick the bucket and leave my kid some money, she will have to pay taxes on that AGAIN. It is no wonder that most states have moved to abolish this most egregious of taxes. Where not to die in 2014!
Posted on: 2014/7/3 17:14
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Better we should protect our taxpayers and not screw them. People should be able to pass on their fair share to their heirs (that they paid tax on while earning it) without the state grabbing it for their idea of redistribution.
Posted on: 2014/7/3 14:45
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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nobody likes taxes, but it is what it is. better to be able to leave something than nothing
Posted on: 2014/7/3 14:39
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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?? Where do you think 401K money goes? Into the estate, where NJ is one of the very few states to have both an inheritance AND and estate tax. Thank you very much Democrats.
Posted on: 2014/7/3 11:18
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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someone raised an interesting point about being able to leave 401k assets to heirs. perhaps this is something unions should consider
Posted on: 2014/7/3 9:58
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Well, you can help them, - like, set up a website with instructions on how best to invest. Get Barack Obama endorsement, get Hillary's endorsement, - and voila! Or, even better, you can run a non-profit 401K management fund (like Vanguard that belongs to its shareholders). Call it "Democrat Party Investment Leadership Fund", ask Obama, Hillary, Reid and Pelosi to be the board, and then everyone who thinks that those guys are the best managers of other people's money can invest in that fund. Problem solved.
Posted on: 2014/6/29 18:50
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Posted on: 2014/6/29 13:44
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Let's say you started to work five or ten years ago through a civil service test you passed, you are required to pay into the pension system for the last 5 or 10 years. If that money is not around when you retire then the state of NJ has robbed you. You cannot take that money and place it somewhere else. You do not have that option. A lot of people think they can live without government but when government shuts down, we do feel the difference. I read some historical article on JC before government was created. People lied and changed property claims all the time. Recording property deeds at the county level stopped that practice. Minor governmental practices keep society safe.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 19:30
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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I suggest you go back and reread the entitlement argument so that you understand it. No one is talking about contracts that were negotiated out. Only for future new hires, who obviously did not (yet) have a contract.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 17:56
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
Joined:
2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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1980
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I don't think people got rich through greed, but people are not rich today because of "hard work" or "long hours." It is often a result of having a leg ahead of everyone else when it comes to the job market. I think the argument over entitlement is odd. These were contracts that were negotiated out. If I enter a contract and agree to do one thing, it is expected that I do that one thing. Why is it that people can't simply be honest about their intentions and motives?
Posted on: 2014/6/27 17:32
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Greed is how people got rich? Really? How about hard work and sacrifice? Long hours? Risk taking? Creating jobs? That's how most rich friends I have earned their wealth.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 16:58
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Not too shy to talk
 
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I love the "E" word.
YOU KNOW WHO ACTS MORE ENTITLED THAN EVERYONE ELSE? RICH PEOPLE! I am in the airport right now and there is a a rich lady berating a worker because she can't get upgraded from business class to 1st. Now she is saying she "will have your job!" Greed is good for rich people that is how they got that way. But for the rest of us if we are greedy it is a travesty. Of course their wealth depends on us being happy with our ever decreasing lot and not feeling "entitled" to a comfortable living. They managed to get the "private sector" to accept it now they are working on us.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 15:42
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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The heart of the problem is the "e" word: entitlement. Here, the union was offered a very reasonable compromise to salvage an unsustainable system, existing workers keep their pension with new hires getting 401ks. As you experienced, this is common in the private sector. But no, the unions and union members felt that anyone lucky enough to get on their gravy train, no matter how far in the future, was entitled to receive $3 million in pension payments for a $125k lifetime contribution. What's worse, their sense of entitlement was so strong that they called Sweeney a rat for daring to interfere. Unfortunately a false sense of entitlement is rampant throughout our society today. And we will have to bear the consequences over the coming years. Good luck getting the media to care about the "e" word though.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 14:38
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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My company changed from a defined pension to a 401K system. Anyone who was hired under the old system continued, new hires were converted to 401Ks. No one was 'robbed'. New hires had the choice to not accept employment if they didn't want that arrangement. NJ taxpayers have been the ones who've been robbed. I saw a statistic that said the average public employee who contributed 125K to his pension was in line to receive over $3 million in pension if he lived to a normal age. Unsustainable. As far as reducing taxes for top wage earners I think the 'promise' was to allow the short term surcharge to expire-as the law was written by the Democrats. And isn't reducing taxes a good thing?? After all, the rich already pay far in excess of their fair share.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 10:27
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Christie was on 101.5 radio station recently, a retired Union City cop called in to discuss pension payment. Christie asked the fellow his age, which is 62, then said he will have a pension but it is the younger workers who are at risk. So these younger workers who are paying 8.5% are being robbed by the governor so he can keep his campaign promise and cut taxes for the top wage earners.
Posted on: 2014/6/27 3:44
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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A judge rejected the union's lawsuit and allowed Christie to cut the pension payments. Probably the beginning of the end for the unsustainable pension system. Should have converted to 401ks in 2006 to avoid the current predictable situation...
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... .html#incart_pop_thishour
Posted on: 2014/6/26 15:15
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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I took the retirement at age 65. I would hardly call the numbers 'pie in the sky' as I just limited savings to the 8.5% pension contribution from the employe's portion of the salary and didn't include any state match.
As for a typical cop or fireman dropping dead 10 years after retirement. Well, outside of spousal benefits, does anyone else in his or her family get the money he/she paid into the system? With a 401k like plan, the money would become part of the deceased's estate, and would be distributed as the deceased will dictates. BTW: for those who don't become obese or have substance abuse problems, lifespans are pretty damn long. The problem now is people outliving their savings. Which brings me to Yvonne's comment that the state should not be allowed to raid the funds. I agree, but the feckless union leadership and the voters are not preventing that from happening. At least with a 401k plan, it becomes much harder (but not impossible) for the state to steal the funds, since they don't directly control the funding. Seizing of private pensions would require a Federal act of despotism, which Argentina and Poland have done. If the union leadership had done their job, they would have pushed to get at least new hires out of the state controlled system. Plus making sure there were a good investment mix and financial advisement for the union members.
Posted on: 2014/6/6 19:38
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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There are lots of things I do not agree with such as a public figure collecting two paychecks, but if a public employee has his/her pay deducted for pension then the state should not use the money to balance the budget. When Whitman started this she wanted to keep her campaign promise to give tax cuts and it was on the backs of public employees. If I had a private practice and used my client?s money the same way, I would be indicted and put in jail. I think public employees have a legitimate complaint. Recently, our state passed ?dreamers? which give in state tuition. The price tag for in state tuition was not discussed. So in order to make dreamers have their dreams, it will come somewhere in our budget. We need a price tag for everything that is passed.
Posted on: 2014/6/6 19:02
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Just can't stay away
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Your right I still don't get it. You can show me all your pie in the sky numbers at retirement age and for the record the law requires all police and firefighters to retire at their 65th birthday ,so we won't make what someone who retires later in life and. Since you mentioned statistics police and firefighters statistically pass away 5-10 yrs after retirement you still fail to show how the state will make their contributions again missing the point or you figure I don't get it, just like I don't get property tax relief but I know you will post all these numbers to show the property tax relief and yes I know the bridge scandal Christy had no knowledge of that either , I missed that point as well so show me all the numbers you want of how well you do with a 401k plan pays out yet I must have missed your post on how the State will make the required payments again who is missing the point...... Look in the mirror for the answe
Posted on: 2014/6/6 18:59
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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Jc344, you still don't get it. You think that because the state is lowering their pension contributions this somehow means that a 401k wouldn't work because the state wouldn't match the worker's contributions as they must in order for it to work.
Try thinking a little harder. Under the broken pension system, the state has to pay twice. Once for the initial contributions (which I agree they are not honoring) and second to pay the retirees. The state has been paying a ton for the retirees and still has not missed a payment. Under a 401k, the state would only have to pay once. To match their employees contributions as they make them. In 2006 they did the math and the amount the state would save by ending retiree pension payments for all future hires would be more than enough to cover the states 401k contributions. The money was all there. So your angry rant is just wrong.
Posted on: 2014/6/6 18:43
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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So for the hell of it, I ran a savings calc:
Initial Salary: $40,000 Annual Salary increase: 3% (cost of living adjustment only) Annual investment return: 9.2% (average for the stock market over the past 50 years or so). Inflation: 3% Retirement age: 65 Lifespan: 90 years Contribution: 8.5% This is a pretty conservative analysis as it assumes the person doesn't receive any real salary increase. Though it might be prudent to increase the lifespan a bit. The financial adviser I use uses a lifespan of 92 years of age for people my age or younger. However, people in my generation should be working into our late 60's early 70's, which would boost up savings a bit more. The state pension system (Police, fire, teachers, etc.. pre Christie) was estimated to be completely flat broke around 2019 (assuming an 8% return on investment). Calcs below At the retirement age of 65, your 401K balance will be $1,751,647.07. After inflation adjustment, it is equivalent to the current money of $536,979.39. If retrieving monthly, after retirement, you can retrieve a monthly payout of $14,940.40. At retirement age, after inflation adjustment, it is equivalent to the current money of $4,580.08. At the age of 90, after inflation adjustment, it is equivalent to the current money of $2,187.47. If retrieving annually, after retirement, you can retrieve an annual payout of $181,226.54. At retirement age, after inflation adjustment, it is equivalent to the current money of $55,556.24. At the age of 90, after inflation adjustment, it is equivalent to the current money of $26,533.97. Schedule Age Contribution/(Payout) Interest End Balance 26 $3,400.00 $156.40 $3,556.40 27 $3,502.00 $488.28 $7,546.68 28 $3,607.06 $860.22 $12,013.96 29 $3,715.27 $1,276.19 $17,005.42 30 $3,826.73 $1,740.53 $22,572.68 31 $3,941.53 $2,258.00 $28,772.21 32 $4,059.78 $2,833.79 $35,665.78 33 $4,181.57 $3,473.60 $43,320.95 34 $4,307.02 $4,183.65 $51,811.62 35 $4,436.23 $4,970.74 $61,218.58 36 $4,569.32 $5,842.30 $71,630.20 37 $4,706.40 $6,806.47 $83,143.07 38 $4,847.59 $7,872.15 $95,862.80 39 $4,993.01 $9,049.06 $109,904.87 40 $5,142.81 $10,347.82 $125,395.50 41 $5,297.09 $11,780.05 $142,472.64 42 $5,456.00 $13,358.46 $161,287.10 43 $5,619.68 $15,096.92 $182,003.70 44 $5,788.27 $17,010.60 $204,802.57 45 $5,961.92 $19,116.08 $229,880.58 46 $6,140.78 $21,431.49 $257,452.84 47 $6,325.00 $23,976.61 $287,754.46 48 $6,514.75 $26,773.09 $321,042.30 49 $6,710.19 $29,844.56 $357,597.05 50 $6,911.50 $33,216.86 $397,725.41 51 $7,118.84 $36,918.20 $441,762.46 52 $7,332.41 $40,979.44 $490,074.31 53 $7,552.38 $45,434.25 $543,060.94 54 $7,778.95 $50,319.44 $601,159.33 55 $8,012.32 $55,675.23 $664,846.88 56 $8,252.69 $61,545.54 $734,645.11 57 $8,500.27 $67,978.36 $811,123.74 58 $8,755.28 $75,026.13 $894,905.15 59 $9,017.94 $82,746.10 $986,669.19 60 $9,288.48 $91,200.84 $1,087,158.50 61 $9,567.13 $100,458.67 $1,197,184.30 62 $9,854.15 $110,594.25 $1,317,632.70 63 $10,149.77 $121,689.10 $1,449,471.57 64 $10,454.26 $133,832.28 $1,593,758.11 65 $10,767.89 $147,121.07 $1,751,647.07 66 ($181,226.54) $161,151.53 $1,731,572.06 67 ($181,226.54) $159,304.63 $1,709,650.14 68 ($181,226.54) $157,287.81 $1,685,711.41 69 ($181,226.54) $155,085.45 $1,659,570.32 70 ($181,226.54) $152,680.47 $1,631,024.24 71 ($181,226.54) $150,054.23 $1,599,851.93 72 ($181,226.54) $147,186.38 $1,565,811.76 73 ($181,226.54) $144,054.68 $1,528,639.90 74 ($181,226.54) $140,634.87 $1,488,048.23 75 ($181,226.54) $136,900.44 $1,443,722.12 76 ($181,226.54) $132,822.43 $1,395,318.01 77 ($181,226.54) $128,369.26 $1,342,460.72 78 ($181,226.54) $123,506.39 $1,284,740.56 79 ($181,226.54) $118,196.13 $1,221,710.15 80 ($181,226.54) $112,397.33 $1,152,880.94 81 ($181,226.54) $106,065.05 $1,077,719.44 82 ($181,226.54) $99,150.19 $995,643.09 83 ($181,226.54) $91,599.16 $906,015.71 84 ($181,226.54) $83,353.45 $808,142.61 85 ($181,226.54) $74,349.12 $701,265.18 86 ($181,226.54) $64,516.40 $584,555.04 87 ($181,226.54) $53,779.06 $457,107.56 88 ($181,226.54) $42,053.90 $317,934.91 89 ($181,226.54) $29,250.01 $165,958.37 90 ($181,226.54) $15,268.17 $0.00
Posted on: 2014/6/6 18:09
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Just can't stay away
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as a point the pension belongs to the employee, not the State , the employees allowed the state to invest the funds as they see fit ,the only way they can withhold any of the pension after retirement is if the employee is convicted of a crime... If You don't believe me go to North Jersey.Com and read the opinion of Christies legal team as to what will happen when he fails to make the necessary pension contribution prior to July 1 2014 , for a better opinion you could go to Mercer County Court on June 24 2014 and see and listen for yourself
Posted on: 2014/6/6 18:09
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Just can't stay away
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I am simply wrong , I guess if you say so it must be fact.... Show me an example over the last twenty years where the State/ Municipality has paid the legally required contribution... While it's true a 401k plan is yours and the deductions can be made like direct deposit if the State/Municipality doesn't make their contributions available the only payments going to the 401k are the employees , I guess my logic escapes you, its the same as the property tax relief that the Governor says we all enjoy, my property taxes have gone up steadily every year over the past ten years so simply because the Governor says it's true doesn't mean it is.The fact remains even with a 401k there is nothing to prove that the State will make the required payments, you can keep implying that I am not intelligent enough to understand how a 401k plan operates, I am however intelligent enough to know if the State is refusing to meet its legally required payments to the pension that we currently have there is no way to prove how they will make them with a 401k plan , it's a simple argument you can try and complicate it as much as you like ,that just does t work with me... and as a point Police/Fire pay 10 % towards their pension , one of the highest contributions by a Public Employee in the Nation (FACT) , Maybe the Governor should model the Pension after New York Cities, its extremely similar to NJ oh thats right the difference is NY Public employees can retire in 20 years as opposed to our 25 and they collect at a higher percentage at retirement ,pay less into it ,oh the difference is NY makes the required contributions each and every year, they have competent employees who effectively invest the funds even during the collapse and they don't raid the pension in order to fund other things such as a bankrupt casinos.... Again lets fix the issue by blaming the employees and the Union ....
Posted on: 2014/6/6 18:04
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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I think Police / Fire in NJ were required to pay 8.5% of their salary into the pension plan. I am not sure what the % is today after the changes under the Christie administration.
Posted on: 2014/6/6 17:48
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Re: Star Ledger: Greedy NJ Unions Responsible for Pension Mess
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Home away from home
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You are simply wrong. Paying into your 401k is no different to getting direct deposit of your wages/salary into your personal bank account, as shown on your pay slip. It's paid weekly/monthly, and contributions will immediately show up on your personal 401k account statement. It's not a simple name change of the account. A 401k is YOUR account, no different to YOUR bank account (as opposed to the State's pension fund which is an account in THEIR name and belongs to the State, not you).
Posted on: 2014/6/6 17:33
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