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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
 
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Yes, personal responsibility or lack thereof is a big part of the reason we have such failing inner city schools.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:29
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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The unmarried moms "personal responsibility" explanation is easier to digest for conservatives than the alternative - Blacks are more likely to be caught in a poverty trap, fathers are more likely to be convicted and sent to jail, single moms are more likely to turn to raising kids both for personal fulfillment and welfare assistance, the kids are likely to be stuck with a poorer standard of education, get stuck in the ghetto and the cycle continues...
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:26
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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This is understandably so. When I went to high school there were no metal detectors. However, one town over there were. Those items are part of a school budget. The person paid to sit there and check the students coming in are part of the school budget. I'm not saying that this is the only reason, but it is a reason. Quote:
I don?t understand you. You argue the ?system is broken? then you state the students are some of the best in the country. So which is it? Is it broken or is it working? I think you are pushing the envelope in arguing that ?out of wedlock? parents are the cause. Single parent children are just fine when they are not living in poverty. Quote:
Holy cow, you really are a broken record. You are wrong, all of that has been proven above. Incorrect assumption 1: Teachers do not work only 180 days per year. This is the number of days spent in a classroom. Incorrect assumption 2: Teachers have benefits that are better than private companies. Teachers are now required to pay into the plans. The plans they are offered are exactly the same this is offered in the public sector. Their pension plans are now required to be paid into, which now means they have a state backed 401(k). What you fail to understand is that simple economics dictates that the more you offer salary wise the better candidates you will get. The state cannot offer an adequate salary. They try to make up for it with good benefits. That is called talent recruitment. Incorrect assumption 3: Extra money worked in the summer is part of a yearly salary for a teacher? So what you are saying is that taking out a second job means you can make more money. Thank you, captain obvious. I was completely unaware that working two jobs and having less spare time would equal more money in my pocket. I am so happy that you were able to shine light on this completely unknown piece of information. Do you have any other words of wisdom, for instance, is water wet? Is the sun hot?
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:25
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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The bankers are at fault for the fact that 3/4 of black kids are born to unmarried mothers and are behind the 8 ball from birth because of that? Look at the lowest performing (and the highest subsidized) schools and see where they are located-the inner cities where out of wedlock children are born. And, taken on average, NJ schools are among the best in the country, usually ranked 3rd out of 50. Oh, and Pebble-add in the extra money many teachers make in the summer (working only 180 days/year, vs 245 days/year), their lifetime Cadillac health care value-with spouses, pensions, and your calculation about private/public comparisons is far different from what you state.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:13
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
Joined:
2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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You are trying to tie two separate entities together that don't belong. The "current system" works just fine. There are thousands upon thousands of public school graduates throughout this state that go on to college and subsequently make a substantial living. You point out that the inner city schools, the poverty schools, the areas where people are the least educated are producing children that are the least educated. The correlation you want to draw is that the system is bad. The fact is that it isn't the system here, it is the external life structure. You could put the greatest teacher in the world with the greatest lesson plans in the world into any classroom. That doesn't mean that person will have the same success everywhere. Fighting the NJEA isn't doing anything. All that does is show how bitter some people are. It's a proven fact that teachers make less than their peers. (You have not even attempted to disprove this fact, which only goes to show how correct I am.) Attacking them and claiming that they should make less or give up more just makes no sense. If salary drives the workforce and the better paid get better employees, how does it make any sense to pay these people less?
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:08
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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This org gets it - it states the problem and solutions well. It's not about quick fixes like smaller class sizes or longer hours.... http://www.broadprize.org/crisis/stats.html http://www.broadprize.org/crisis/bureaucracy.html http://www.broadcenter.org/who-we-are ... rence-were-trying-to-make American education systems need to be modernized and reoriented so that all resources support student and teacher success. That means every central office policy, practice, dollar, decision, piece of data and moment must be spent pushing sufficient resources to the classroom, empowering teachers and students and helping everyone in the system continuously improve.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:04
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Just can't stay away
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I think we all agree the "current system" doesn't work for every student but the problems in education can not be found in the classrooms, they're in the homes across America. Poverty plays a major role. The child poverty rate in America has now reached the highest since the greeat depression: 1 in 4 children are now living at or below the poverty level in this great country of ours. Why not place the blame where it belongs: on the 1 percenters (bankers mostly) who engineered the economic collapse of this country 5 years ago? Solve the child poverty issues and you'll see an improvement in schools. And why are we allowing politicians to reform education anyway? That would be like having welders reforming the FAA. In case you're not well read on the topic of American education there is a corporate take over of our public schools happening before our eyes. Read all about it. Diane Ravitch is a leading researcher, author, and former education advisor to the Bush administration and a very outspoken critic of the current reform. I strongly suggest you read and learn before you take to your computers.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:04
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Double is way exaggerated, no? And 'the rest comes from the state' is a bit misleading, as the suburban schools just get funded by higher local property taxes while NJ income tax money, paid by the higher earners, gets moved to the urban schools for support. But using Camden as I did earlier (and they're among the worst performing schools in NJ) they spent $23.7K/student. Millburn, generally the top district in the state, spent $17.8K/student. So double is way off.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 15:02
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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In NJ, the worst school systems get the most money. Cities like Newark and Asbury Park spend double what the suburbs do.* Property taxes cover only a fraction of the costs. The rest comes from the State. * Audits found that the reported spending per student by some of these districts was in fact well below what was actually spent.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:56
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Finland and South Korea succeed because it's much easier to teach when there isn't a lot of diversity among the students.
I'll bet there aren't a ton of non-Finnish and non-Korean speaking kids needing remedial education. That said, my point about spending on our schools stands-throwing more money at the problem, with the same methods we now use, solves nothing and increases the tax burden needlessly. So come up with some ideas, get behind those who do, or step aside. For those who feel their kids already spend enough time in school, or parents who don't want to be inconvenienced by longer hours, can I assume you're happy with the schools? If not, what would you change?
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:39
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Great quote from the Economist article For example, unlike the schools in Finland, which channel more resources to the neediest kids, America funds its schools through property taxes, ensuring the most disadvantaged students are warehoused together in the worst schools.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:33
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Does anyone disagree that the current system is not working for a great many students? The question is whether making the day/year longer -- more of the same -- is the answer.
Looking at the two nations with the highest education success rates - Finland and South Korea - provides some insights. Each nation offers two very different methods of education. Would either one of them be acceptable in this nation? No, they would not. We have national policies, state departments of education, and local districts funded by property taxes. Fiefdoms. And then there are the states that by their very buying power control significant chunks of the textbook industry -- so American children in some states learn fake science. http://www.economist.com/news/books-a ... -think-best-and-brightest When this GWB bridge scandal broke, I said to my husband -- wait, he'll find a way to blame this on teachers. So what's the new distraction? Yup, schools -- make teachers work long hours.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:24
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Nice work Pebble. But anyone in the know doesn't need all the stats to know that social workers (ie: teachers) traditionally are paid lower than other fields. It's well documented. It's only in the past few years that your Bloombergs, Rahm Emanuels (Chicago) et. al. seem to want to draw comparisons between the public and private sectors that this all became an issue. Funny thing: When I told my doctor and lawyer buddies I was going to teach back in 1994, they all said good luck but probably laughed under their breaths because they thought they'd have the country clubs, trophy wives, and 75K SUVs. When all that and the dot coms millionaire clubs dried up, it became time to look over the fence of their neighbors; the ones who made more conservative, realistic bets on their future: public service. We settled for median income salaries, poor working conditions, inadequate technolgy, contracts always 5 years behind and of course, the occasional misinformed douche trying to stir up anger and disdain for the working folk. Go get a cushy teaching gig instead of whining about all you don't have and stop attacking fellow Americans just trying to earn a decent living.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:12
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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With 2 kids in school, I believe that it's VERY wrong to assume:
longer school days = better grades In fact, as several posters have mentioned, without the proper structure, that would just be wasted time. Not to mention it doesn't leave time for any other after school activities. This is similar to just what happened at my son's school. Each parent was "coerced" (in my personal words and opinion) to cough up $50 per child to get 2 iPads per class (the idea was pushed by parent advocates, not the school). While I agree technology should be utilized in teaching, I can't help but feel that for most (busy) parents, this is a great way to tell their friends, "Oh yeah, my kid's have iPads in class to help them learn". In this case, "technology =/= better learning =/= better grades" by default. Unless there is a proper support / teaching plan, longer days, just like technology, is useless on its own.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 14:12
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Pebble, again, just because you repeat something inside your head doesn't make it any more real, you're only convincing yourself.
Face facts-the untold billions of dollars thrown at failing schools has proven wasted with the methods we've used for decades. Did you see where only THREE kids in Camden scored as college ready this year in their SAT scores? And NJ taxpayers paid 88% of the third of a billion dollars for the Camden school system, with 2.7% funded by local taxpayers. So, the current system isn't working. Now I know you can't force kids to learn, and the schools can't overcome teenaged parents, single parents, children of junkies, yadda yadda. But why not try something different? Maybe charter schools will work. Maybe longer days and longer years can work. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. Advocating for the status quo is stupid AND wastes money. Don't you want to help the kids? Or you'd rather help the NJEA? http://www.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/educat ... dist_code0680&maxhits=650
Posted on: 2014/1/17 13:37
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
Joined:
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I have never seen anyone proven so definitively to be wrong and yet continue to harp on a point. 1. It is a fact that teachers of a certain skill level, years of service and education level make less money than their counterparts in every single other field available. 2. I don?t work weekends. In fact, I don?t know many people that are professionals that work weekends. Retail is the only real business that requires work on weekends and those employees still have two days off during the week, something teachers do not have. 3. The argument that teachers can make money moonlighting. Yeah, so can I. I could bartend on weekends or nights. I could provide tutoring. That doesn?t mean that teachers are underpaid for the jobs that are taking up the bulk of their time and for which they are required to have college degrees for. 4. Christie is throwing spaghetti against the wall, which is the longer days nonsense. Charter schools are nothing more than private schools given public money. I?m sure it?ll be awesome to send you kid to Pepsi School to learn about how awesome the Pepsi products are. Additionally, it?s the backdoor way that religious based private schools are using to try and get their hands on public money, which should be a serious concern for anyone that has two brain cells. Lastly, there are teachers on this forum and parents as well. In this small sample size, the only people posting that longer school days are a good idea are those without kids and those that Christie supporters. Overall, it seems like a bad idea.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 13:03
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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4?!? I never got home before 6 after rehearsals and practices.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 6:12
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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No. Sorry, but I am not behind this. My kids are in school long enough. By the end of the day they are exhausted. They get home by around 4. Homework is never 20 minutes like they say it is, it usually takes an hour. Then I have to make dinner and they eat and go to bed. They barely have time to go outside and play. No fucking way would I want my kid to be in school longer. Awful idea.
Posted on: 2014/1/17 3:09
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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While looking at data thought the lens of ethnicity is interesting, drawing conclusions is problematic and speculative. I could equally speculate that US education is racially divisive and discriminatory.
Why has the US dropped from near the top spot, to average, over the past 30 years, when it's ethnic mix hasn't changed that much? Quote:
Posted on: 2014/1/17 0:55
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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The Catholic School that my kids go to follow the public school district in terms of school year,snow days and number of days necessary to fulfill state requirements.They don t follow certain curriculum i.e.religion etc
Posted on: 2014/1/17 0:53
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Is this proposal for public schools or all schools? Why would Christie change private schools scheduling?
Posted on: 2014/1/16 23:50
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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As a parent, i certainly do not want a longer school day or year. As it is (my children go to Catholic School) their classes start at 8am and end at 3pm with a half hour for lunch! Most people a normal workday is eight hrs long(with either a half hr or hour for lunch) asking a 5 and 7 year old to spend more than 6.5 hrs in class 7 total hrs at school(they are not permitted to leave school on lunch) is a bit much in my opinion ,and the teachers salary has no bearing in this
Posted on: 2014/1/16 22:52
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Why the race to the bottom? In this country's economic hey-day (1950s) the disparity was not as high as it is now and people were paying their fair share in taxes (rich and corporations included).
The 1950's was not the rosy economic period that conventional wisdom says it was. The 50's was a series of inflationary periods followed by really steep recessions. The top 10% pay a higher % of the federal income tax today than during the post WWII / Pre JFK tax cut period. The top rate may have been 90%, but nobody paid that. Wealth went into trusts, life insurance, treasuries, and other tax sheltered areas. From 1946 to JFK we went through about 7 recessions. The one in 1958 was so bad the economy contracted 10% in one quarter. We have never had a quarterly contraction that bad since (even in 2008). Defined benefit plans give people an opportunity to retire in dignity. More people should have defined benefit plans rather than defined contribution plans. Pension plans are going bye-bye both public and private. Pensions worked fine when you had people retiring at 65, but the average life-span was only 63. We are living longer and therefor will have to work longer. The retirement age will have to be raised significantly. Plus we are going to have to become a society that puts a minimum of 10% of our gross pay away into investments. Chile and Australia have done their own versions and they have worked rather well. So has our own Federal Government via the Thrift Savings Plan (replaced part of the Federal Pension plan.. was put into effect in the 1980s), which is available to members of Congress. As a minimum, us taxpayers should have access to the same plan that Congress gives themselves. Teachers pay into their pension plans. The Christie Whitman administration decided to cut the taxes on the wealthy and then borrow money from the public pension plan. Whitman does deserve a lot of blame for not proposing real cuts in state spending. The pension plans got hosed as a result. The under funding continued right through consecutive democrat administrations as well. McGreevy went as far as getting his own family members part time government jobs so they could collect a pensions. As for Christie.. except for some minor business tax reforms, there hasn't been an income tax cut. The 10% proposed cut died in the legislature. Having you pay more into your pension will at least keep it afloat a bit longer. In 2010, the teachers pension was less than 40% funded. It was estimated to go completely flat broke in 2019.. or earlier if the plan didn't get an 8% return on investments. If the state just raised the taxes to the pre-Whitman era and the state could make pension contributions, the pension plan would be in better shape and the entire state of NJ would be better off too. Per the IRS, NJ is losing its upper income tax base as upper income people are moving out to low tax states. You will only be taking a bigger slice of an ever shrinking pie.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 22:45
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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So in other words, no-lol. Your salary comparison is bogus without doing so. Who doesn't work weekends for their job, private or public? But just about every teacher I know moonlights during their time off during the summer. And if the teacher has the good fortune to work in the green leafed suburbs the money they can earn tutoring is incredible-which they do right after school. But let's circle back to the original point of the thread-what suggestions does anyone have to improve education-Christie has a couple, longer days/year and charter schools for students who want a choice. The hard line education lobby wants neither.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 22:13
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Why does it matter?
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:58
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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Ok how about this we just have no public education system and have a society of slack jawed yokels. I teach privately and charge between $60 to $75 an hour for one on one instruction. Now imagine how little a teacher is getting to teach a classroom of around 25 children and trying to get all 25 to focus. They are vastly underpaid.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:57
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Home away from home
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I don't know a teacher that is off for 10 weeks in the summer. Maybe the lazy ones that make less money choose to not spend that time with seminars (expenses from their own money). I also don't know a single teacher that doesn't end up working on the weekends during the school year. This is the time they spend lesson planning and grading papers. Your numbers are entirely off since you refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that a teacher's work time is not retained to the time in the classroom.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:54
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Christie calls on extending school day and school year. In Jersey City
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NJ has the highest starting salary for teachers in the USA, btw.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:51
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Home away from home
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You should read above. You might learn something about salaries and how comparison to education levels work. A teacher that would have the equal education and experience level as myself would never hit my salary. That is why I work in the private sector. This was even before Christie decided to screw them over with the nonsensical pension reform.
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:51
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Pebble, I was typing while you posted. Your salary numbers, are they weighed for the fact that teachers work only about 180 days a year?? You know, the ten week summer vacation, the long holiday breaks, and every conceivable individual holiday?
Or did you not figure that into comparing salaries??
Posted on: 2014/1/16 21:50
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