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Re: The futility of gun control
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dtjcview wrote: There is no law that requires anything to OWN a car, only to drive on the public road. As for the rest: 1. registration, - do you want to register computers and printers? Just in case someone abuses his first amendment rights? What is the purpose of the registration if not confiscation? 2. forced insurance is meaningless. People are CRIMINALLY liable for shooting an innocent person right now, - so adding an insurance wont make them more responsible. So, you insurance idea is just a pretext to require registration.
Posted on: 2013/2/4 5:37
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A license, insurance and registration would hold gun sellers and buyers responsible and accountable. Most car dealers won't let you take a car off the lot without a license and insurance. Why not with guns? As with autos, there should be state and federally mandated liability minimums.
For the victims of gun crimes and violence, that would create a pool of money that could be claimed through litigation. The insurers would pass the cost of this on to the gun owners. The insurers could also help price out the reckless, careless, even insane gun owners. And help set standards of responsible gun sales and ownership that clearly was missing in recent tragedies such as Newtown, Columbine and Treyvon Martin. This doesn't directly address all the issues of gun control, but it's a start. If gun transfers are better recorded, that will start cutting the flow to the criminals. Gun buy-backs and other such programs will help take unregistered guns out of circulation. And if it creates an army of lawyers to go after the gun manufacturers and sellers, and hold them liable in the same way that big tobacco got hit, then that won't be a bad thing. They'll have an incentive to tidy up the mess. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/2/4 5:14
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Vigilante wrote: Funny. So, an article says "hey, big number of the guns are being sold by the dealers!" Ok, fine, show us the numbers... Well? Hey, we are ready, stop saying things about how FFL is valuable to the criminals, go straight to the numbers? Ah, here we go! Ok, so 120,370 guns were traced to the original FFL. Out of how many? 120K out of 10 million? 120K out of 121K? No? Not sharing this info? My bullshit alarm is beeping... Out of those 120K guns, 27.7% were sold illegally, right? No? What do you mean - no? I thought you are showing us the numbers that prove the claim? Turns out, - no numbers. Turns out, the guilt of the dealers is presumed based on the fact that those 27.7% got into criminal's hands fast. Well, now my bullshit alarm is not beeping, it is ringing! -- Hey, boris, don't be paranoid, that is the ATF study. STUDY, you see? Would they use some bullshit for something they call "study"? Well... We know that ATF sold thousands of guns to the drug cartels in the operation "Fast and Furious". We know that ATF forced the legal dealers to sell those guns. And then, it turns out, the ATF's agents Chait and Newell discussed that those sales can be used as a "strong supporting factor" for the new regulations on the dealers. Oh, and, when the operation became known, the management of the ATF attacked the wistleblowers. So, why would I trust that organization? Quote: Vigilante wrote: First, you showed no piece of fact so far. You gave few random links with some opinions from whomever. Second, if your claims are based on facts - show them. If you can't, well then, - we know that you have nothing.
Posted on: 2013/2/3 4:15
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I agree with you on the theory of violence. If I understand what you're saying, we'll need to remove the symbolism of M-16s and AK's and decouple the link between those guns and the idea of power.
This is good, but I do not know if this is possible. It will take a generation or two to go back and change the culture, and this is the USA. Where I grew up, most adult men carried. If there was conflict, real men like my Dad pulled out their pistols and gave them to a third party, then settled the issue mano-a-mano on the parking lot. After that, it's over. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/2/3 1:54
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Illegal and straw gun sales are another big part of the problem. Many of these sales are done by so-called legitimate gun brokers. The whole BS of reporting a gun "stolen" long after it has been used in a crime is another big problem. All these irresponsible and greedy gun sellers are literally helping to kill thousands of Americans.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli ... ows/guns/procon/guns.html And borisp, since you love to blabber on and on and want someone to handhold you through every piece of fact you are going to have to do your own searching. Sorry.
Posted on: 2013/2/3 1:23
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First, allow me to draw your attention that all those rules about the automobiles apply only when you intent to drive on the public road. You need nothing to buy an automobile, - be it a small FIAT or a hugest truck. You need nothing to keep this automobile on a private property, other than permission from the property owner. Second, the Bill Of Rights has 10 articles, and the fifth one says that nobody can be compelled to be a witness against himself. Now, consider a convicted felon. If he has a gun, it is illegal. To ask him to register it means to ask him to testify against himself. And that means that not only the criminals will diregard the requirement to register their guns, but that it is constitutionally inapplicable to them! So, when you want to register guns, - what's the idea? Aside from the desire to extract "revenue" from anything people do, aside from the maniacal desire to register everything for the registration sake, and from keeping an option to confiscate, - what exactly do you want to achive through the registration? Quote: Vigilante wrote: In other words, your previous statement that the gun sellers are the biggest problem has no factual support whatsoever. Now, I am confused about you mentioning "private sellers". Do you mean that there are some government gun sellers? And why the quotation marks? Do you want to express some doubt that they are, indeed, private? As for the ATF, clarify please, is this the same ATF that sold loads of "military stile" rifles to the Mexican drug cartels not more then few years ago?If this is the same ATF, could you kindly check if they have figured out finally, who authorized that "fast and furious" operation? I mean, if they can't figure that out, - they have no business controlling other people, right? Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Ah, you want to play "generalization" game? Fine by me. My move: -- Let's not forget the gun-control laws in the US were invented by the KKK and in Europe used by the Commies and the Nazis to exterminate tens of millions of people! I think I won.
Posted on: 2013/2/3 0:32
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Let's not forget that guns are being used to kill protected animals or animals protected during certain times of the year - The uncontrolled killing of domestic and our wild animals is a major problem for law authorities. Even a % of our so called 'responsibile' hunters are a bunch a cowboys
Posted on: 2013/2/2 22:33
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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I'm sure all these gun sellers consider themselves to be law abiding citizens. They are just a BIG part of the problem. So yes, an ATF agent should be present at all gun shows. The "private sellers" are not responsible enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baPgr_tw79Q
Posted on: 2013/2/2 20:28
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We in NJ already have to go through one of the strictest process to obtain firearms and for pistols, you have to go to the local police precinct and get a license for each handgun. You can only purchase one every 30 days. This individual pieces of paper expires in 90 days.
Learning how to use your weapon is a no-brainer, it is irresponsible to not practice with your rifle or pistol. Most of us go thru the NJ Dept. of Wildlife and take a hunter safety course. We go to the pistol range twice a month. Now if you are talking about "passing a test", it will depend on the weapon's purpose. Most sporting uses can be measured, but what if one just wants one for personal protection at home? How do you test a person's ability to shoot an intruder? My guns are insured by the NRA, via membership for their full value, if that's what you mean. But when you say liability as in automobiles, it really gets into some slippery territory. Criminals, the deranged and depraved are the real problems here. Not people who abide by the rules in responsible possession of firearms. All this talk of new laws only inconvenience and irritate legal gun owners, who will bear the burden. It won't prevent massacres from happening. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/2/2 19:42
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It seems to me that treating guns more like automobiles is the way to go. Gotta get a license before purchase and use, gotta take a "road test" to prove you know how to operate it safely, gotta get it insured, and gotta register it.
The insurance companies will quickly assign rates = risk (including coverage of uninsured guns), and the registration system will generate revenue.
Posted on: 2013/2/2 12:47
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The tools to kill people and jail people is big business - The more that is manufactured means the more that will be locked up - Creating the tools for anarchy does have a money making cycle !
I also read that the NRA are looking for MORE bloggers !
Posted on: 2013/2/2 11:12
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Would you clarify this statement? Like, - do you mean that there are some isolated cases where one or two gun shop owners violated the law? If so, - how come you declared those isolated cases to be "the biggest problem"? Or, do you mean this is a pattern for the significant share of the gun owners? In this case, would you care to produce some evidence to support this claim? I mean, - you are not just making baseless accusation without any shred of support, right? P.S. Please, do not try to use the case where the ATF agents forced gun shop owners to sell significant quantities of weaponry to the drug cartels.
Posted on: 2013/2/2 6:14
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just like the war on drugs can stop people from selling illegal drugs? face it - laws don't stop people from trading what they want. and the gun shop owners are the least of our problems.
Posted on: 2013/2/2 4:47
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Half right is scary enough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQEDvqmAfqg Or maybe completely right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxZxru ... 904&feature=results_video
Posted on: 2013/2/2 4:40
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Gun shop owners are required by federal law to do mandatory background checks for every purchase. Each and every background check is cleared by the Federal Bureau of Investigations. In NJ, one of the strictest states on gun control, law-abiding gun owners are required by law to submit fingerprints into the national FBI database (just like when you get arrested). If you actually knew half of what you claim to know you might actually make an intelligent argument once in a blue moon. Do some research before you spout off your crazy lies nut job.
Posted on: 2013/2/2 4:29
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Forget the street thugs and the law abiding gun owners. The biggest problem is the gun shop owners and private sellers who will sell guns to anybody. They are not following laws or procedure. That is why an ATF agent must be required at all gun shows and why private sales only take place when witnessed by local law enforcement. It's easy to do and makes total sense.
Posted on: 2013/2/2 4:15
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Yeah, that would be freakin' awesome - if I were a criminal who specializes in home invasion. Unless you're going to *try* to make the "city" something that resembles a maximum security prison. And the operative word is "try", for we all know even Supermax has drug dealing and corruption inside.
If I were a criminal, this "Gun Free Zone" would be the perfect playground. All I have to do is outwit or neutralize local LEO. We all know how effective LEO is in protecting us in the 'hood right? So this may actually work in JC. Seriously. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/2/2 3:46
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not sure if serious..
Posted on: 2013/2/2 3:12
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dtjcview wrote: This is called a strawman argument. I did never claim that an armed population is supposed to stop wars. Quote: dtjcview wrote: Both. For example, you can look at the Swiss. Why do you think they managed to stay neutral in the two major wars in that sesspool? Why do you think Hitler abandoned the operation Tannenbaum and never invaded? Could it be that he figured out that it would be too pricey to invade the country where everyone is armed and even the most famous National Hero is a sniper? Or you can read up on the revolt in the Warsaw ghetto, - where just a small froup of people with just a few random guns were able to give the German Arny significantly uneasy time. Quote: dtjcview wrote: Not sure about the US population, but if the japanese were armed, - I don't think that these plans would go forward. Quote: dtjcview wrote: Never made an assumption. Observations only. In all cases where we have very armed population we have politicaly stable democratic regime. In most cases where a government disarms the population, we see that government attack its people. As for my logic, - let's not talk about it just yet. Judging by your statement about the Civil War, - you need to read what I write first. Quote:
You KNOW THAT???? You know that other factors are decisive, whereas availability of guns is not???! Damn! One would never think that you knew, - judging by how eagerly you concentratre on the availability of guns...
Posted on: 2013/2/2 2:33
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Just can't stay away
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So not only is gun control futile, it would appear from this thread (despite the fact there are some really good, compelling posts) trying to discuss it is futile, too.
I think its worth stepping back to remind ourselves of just how the right to bear arms came about - http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html - clearly it was part of a conversation (knock-down, drag-out fight?) then, just as now. Perhaps the REAL discussion should be whether or not the Constitution needs to be amended, again, to deal with guns in a 21st Century fashion? I for one don't know where I stand. Would it be better to sacrifice one "right" - the right to bear arms - for another - the "right" of the mentally ill, and un-educated inner-city young men who lack any impulse control, to their "freedom" to live their lives without any regard for the public well being?
Posted on: 2013/2/1 16:56
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Posted on: 2013/2/1 15:22
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Borisp,
An armed population stops exactly what? It couldn't stop a civil war. But it can stop a take over by a totalitarian regime? An internal regime or an external one? You constantly use Europe as an example. So let's consider that that for a minute. Let's say the US gov had decided to slaughter the interned Japanese during WWII, like the Nazis slaughtered the Jews. How could having an armed US population have stopped that? Your logic is slippery, and full of implicit, yet baseless assumptions.
Posted on: 2013/2/1 15:17
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Yes, it discriminates against ?scary? looking rifles, but there may be a point to that after all. I?ve used AR-15 variants as well as the Mini-14 extensively, and prefer the latter in fact, but the image of a tactical-style rifle is a powerful symbol that is inextricably tied to seductive, glorified notions of empowerment and conflict resolution. If Americans are to become less apt to resort to the gun as a means of achieving those goals, let?s consider how the dazzling public image of the gun might be related to its use. On one hand there?s our propensity for violence, and on the other, the popularity and accessibility?both objectively and subjectively?of very deadly weapons. While our violent nature is a significant problem in itself, it certainly can?t help that we cherish guns with such theatrical zeal. An "assault weapons ban" may simply be one way of toning down the wrong sort of marketing.
Posted on: 2013/2/1 14:26
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By the way, people who talk about "assault weapons" really need to watch this video. Officer Leroy Pile of the San Jose police department explains the difference between "auto" and "semi-auto".
Just ten minutes and you will be able to brag that you know more than 50% of the US elected officials on the subject! If you have no patience to sit through all 10 minutes, go to the 5:55 mark where he shows the real difference between "assault" and a "hunting" rifles.
Posted on: 2013/2/1 13:56
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Quote: dtjcview wrote: Frankly, I do not know what you mean by that, nor do I see any way in which this is related to "my" logic. Quote: dtjcview wrote: Bloodiness has nothing to do with that. US Civil War was not a case of a government trying to take away the rights of the people. It was quite the opposite, the case of a government trying to restore people in their rights, - and having to fight off those who wanted people enslaved. In Europe and Asia tens of millions were slaughtered by the governments that were pushing the idea that "common good as defined by The Only True Party is more important than rights". Quote: dtjcview wrote: If you think that helping out people who were fighting off Nazis is "fueling the war"... Well, I guess there is no hope that you'd ever "buy my logic". Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Oh, I see. The city would be like today's Chicago, - the Gun Control Capital of the USA. And the country side would be like today's Vermont, where a person, - any person, - doesn't even need a license to carry - openely or concealed. And you would consider that city a "sanctuary". Riiiiiight.
Posted on: 2013/2/1 13:45
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Here is a novel idea, what about a gun free zone within city limits and individuals can arm themselves to the teeth in rural areas - The city limit zone can be a sanctuary and void of any guns !
Posted on: 2013/2/1 7:55
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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there's so much emphasis on a tool that can be used for violence - but very little on why the violence occurs in the first place. you could give assault rifles to peaceful people and it would not be of any consequence.
focusing on the philosophy of violence will be much more efficient and ending violence than making laws about tools. you also can't legislate away tools (the war on drugs proved that).
Posted on: 2013/2/1 2:06
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Again, what's the difference between a Bushmaster AR-15, banned under Diane Feinstein and a Ruger Mini-14, legally exempted? One the AR-15 looks (to the ignorant) really scary as they are all black, have a pistol grip and looks like the one soldiers carry in battle and the other has a really nice walnut stock and it looks like a hunting rifle. Both, under NJ laws can be used with 15 round, .223 (or 5.56) magazines.
It's just gun discrimination, and will not reduce gun violence. Most civilians, including 99% of the media. just doesn't get it. Here's the other fact: the 300 Million or so firearms are owned by 90 million or so, law abiding gun owners. 4.5 Million are members of the NRA, and growing exponentially, because gun owners are polarized by this idiotic gun debate. There will always be criminals out there. Guns are just a convenient target. No pun intended. 
Posted on: 2013/2/1 1:29
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The progressive paradise of California prepares for gun confiscation: AB 174 (Asm. Rob Bonta, D-Oakland)) - Would begin the conversation on ending the grandfathering of existing weapons which are now illegal to purchase but are still legal to possess. ?State laws on the books currently restrict the purchase and sale of assault weapons and large capacity magazines, but almost all laws only apply on a going forward basis and exempted weapons remain on our streets,? Bonta said. ?With AB 174 we will closely examine this loophole and do what?s right for the children and people of California.? http://kiem-tv.com/node/4668
Posted on: 2013/2/1 1:17
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203 people shot today in the US of A. Stricter control is coming. No one who legally owns legal guns is going to lose them. Assault weapons will be banned and owners will be held to more account. If you have legal guns and a legal permit why would you be worried? No one believes that guns can be completely removed from citizens nor should they be. War weapons don't belong in the hands of ordinary citizens. It is just plain stupid.
Posted on: 2013/1/31 23:38
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