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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Just can't stay away
 
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I agree routing the pipeline through JC is pointless, as it will not benefit out city in any way.
safety shouldn't be a concern though, as several gas pipelines already exist in New Jersey. Just playing Devil's advocate here. I think it's a terrible decision.
Posted on: 2012/5/30 17:27
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All well and good, but beside the point - and a bit of a strawman argument. Whether or not more infrastructure needs to be built around the country isn't really the point of this thread. Whether the pipeline needs to be routed through Jersey City is, especially when there is a perfect alternative sitting a mile or so to the east.
Posted on: 2012/5/30 17:01
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A few years ago, what you stated would have been correct. The "lack of infrastructure" has been plaguing some of the new oil fields, in particular North Dakota. From The New York Times from about a year ago NEW TOWN, N.D. ? Across western North Dakota, hundreds of fires rise above fields of wheat and sunflowers and bales of hay. At night, they illuminate the prairie skies like giant fireflies. They are not wildfires caused by lightning strikes or other acts of nature, but the deliberate burning of natural gas by oil companies rushing to extract oil from the Bakken shale field and take advantage of the high price of crude. The gas bubbles up alongside the far more valuable oil, and with less economic incentive to capture it, the drillers treat the gas as waste and simply burn it. Every day, more than 100 million cubic feet of natural gas is flared this way ? enough energy to heat half a million homes for a day. The flared gas also spews at least two million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every year, as much as 384,000 cars or a medium-size coal-fired power plant would emit, alarming some environmentalists. All told, 30 percent of the natural gas produced in North Dakota is burned as waste. No other major domestic oil field currently flares close to that much, though the practice is still common in countries like Russia, Nigeria and Iran. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/bus ... e-sky.html?pagewanted=all I wasn't addressing the route of the pipeline though JC.. I was however, attempting to put to rest the idea that new pipelines are not needed. More will be coming: Previously unrecoverable oil is now recoverable in Kansas in a limestone formation. There will be 100+ wells drilled by next year. Oil wells means there will be a lot of associated natural gas to process as well. Chances are there will be upgrades in pipeline capacity to get that gas to the biggest gas market (per capita) in the country... here... NY is slowly inching towards allowing hydraulic fracturing. If / when they do, a lot of gas opens up. NY has at least three layers of shale that hold gas and / or oil, plus additional layers of sandstone that hold the same. Guess where the closest major market is for the gas? NYC metro area.. New pipelines for NY are already in the planning stages. There is even gas and oil off the coast of NJ. I would bet that the federal drilling ban on the East Coast may go bye-bye after the election. That gas has to get to market by pipelines.
Posted on: 2012/5/29 22:53
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FERC a hero? IMO they have just been lucky that they haven't had to make a big call like this before. And the fact that they have ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY for any of their decisions. "Thousands died!. OOPS - we got it wrong!!!". That will be their defense. FERC are not even trying to protect ANY of us. They have a free license. They have a free defense from any public scrutiny. Why shouldn't they just act as the whipping boys of the energy companies. They have no public incentive to do anything else, but to beg, roll over, and show their belly to Spectra. And when the shit hits the fan, they get their free government bailout. Priceless zombie governmental org. We need more zombie orgs like FERC. Not.
Posted on: 2012/5/25 22:22
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Yeah, I was kinda venting by calling them terrorists and traitors. But to dtjcview's point, you now have tank cars filled with chlorine gas going alongside a huge gas pipeline, underneath the Turnpike, next to US Army Reseve Center at Caven Point, and schools. Am I (and dtjcview) the only ones who can connect the dots here? This is insane.
Posted on: 2012/5/24 19:55
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Let's be real here, they're simply the same industry captive bureaucrats that regulate wall street or mining or any other industry, that has a revolving door and sweet relations with their regulator. FERC has actually been a hero to the river conservation community for removing dams recently, and they made regulations friendly to whitewater interests by insisting that recreational dam releases be a priority for hydo-electric operators. But they're really screwing the pooch here. There's been other times when a project was obviously wrong but no one could legally stop it. Robert Moses wanted to build a Brooklyn-Battery bridge rather than a tunnel, and it took FDR making up a fib about it threatening the security of the Naval Yards to stop him.
Posted on: 2012/5/24 17:02
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No, FERC is not dead and will not be dead. You will be dead. FERC is nothing but a bunch of terrorists and traitors, and unfortunately, they are winning...
Posted on: 2012/5/24 11:16
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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My message to FERC...
You are an apologist for energy companies. You use EPA statements to back up your claims of safety, but don't consider NTSB standards. The nice thing about your approval of the Spectra NJ/NY Gas pipeline, is that you've pretty much signed FERC's own death warrant. Any attack on this pipeline, will KILL you as a governing organization. You have just approved building a gas pipeline alongside railtracks that carry chlorine gas beside Jersey City schools. Are you out of your minds? Goodbye FERC. You are dead :)
Posted on: 2012/5/24 7:20
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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I can't believe this is turning into a partisan debate. FERC is part of the permanent government bureaucracy, not easily subject to party whims, and long captured by industry like most of the bureaucracy. A presidential term is like being at the helm of a supertanker for 10 minutes, it still keeps going basically in the direction it was going.
About the only thing a president does that is guaranteed to make a long term difference to this country is the justices he nominates to SCOTUS. As flawed as recent Dems terms may be, I prefer their justices over GOP justices. Difference enough for me to keep voting Dem.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 19:03
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What? Hope and Change? Nice marketing slogan. Just like "Compassionate Conservatism", "Change you can see", "Kinder, Gentler nation" and on and on. It's what America does best - sell things.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 18:51
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After a while.....I think everyone figures out that the Dumbs and Reprobates....are the same....yet they still keep voting for them. I just don't understand.
I am at a point where I refuse to vote for them....and either pick an independent or.....write a name in.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 17:33
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BS. Obama ran on a promise that he will do things differently. Has he (other than lip service, of course)?
Posted on: 2012/5/23 17:24
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When will we as a nation move past the ridiculous Republican/Democrat nonsense? Business buys politicians. Republican politicians. Democrat politicans. I'm sure if the Strawberry Jello party were to get up and running, business would buy their politicians as well. FERC is an industry rubber stamp now, just as it was under Bush. Banking regulations are too weak now, just as they were under Bush (and Clinton). Bush gutted the SEC and Obama lacks the (will? courage? conscience?) to do anything about it. None of this has anything to do with where Obama was born or that 9/11 was an inside job - or whatever FOX and/or MSNBC feed you to keep you "informed."
Posted on: 2012/5/23 16:15
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Your flaring argument is flawed. Gas, with very limited exceptions (that don't apply to the U.S.) is a regional commodity - unlike oil. Yes, a relatively small amount of LNG moves around the world, but only a trace amount comes into the U.S. There is no flaring in the U.S. - it happens in places like offshore West Africa and in the jungles of South America where the issue isn't constrained infrastructure, it is the complete lack of infrastructure in many cases. There actually is ample capacity to serve NYC. This is about getting cheaper gas into the city, via a cheaper route. At what point does profit maximization stop trumping all other considerations?
More to the point, the rational argument against the pipeline - and the one put forward by No Gas Pipeline - wasn't to not build it. It was to put it in the river where the risk it would cause harm would be greatly reduced. But that would have increased the cost of the project by 25% to 30% and we can't have that on our consciences, can we? Quote:
Posted on: 2012/5/23 16:05
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Whose government is FERC part of? Yeah, it's all Republicans' fault. 
Posted on: 2012/5/23 15:04
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Quite a regular
 
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Where is our dear Mr. Christie on this one? Not really concerned about NJ?
Posted on: 2012/5/23 13:55
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Jersey City officials and activists vow to keep fighting planned natural gas pipeline that got federal approval Monday
May 23, 2012, 3:00 AM By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal Local officials, environmental groups and community activists yesterday vowed to continue fighting to keep Spectra Energy from building a natural gas pipeline through parts of Hudson County, one day after federal officials gave the controversial plan their official OK. There are only two avenues of appeal for opponents of the pipeline, which would run for about 15 miles through parts of Bayonne, Jersey City and offshore Hoboken before heading into Manhattan. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, whose five members unanimously approved the pipeline plan on Monday, can agree to rehear the case, or a federal circuit court can throw out FERC?s decision. Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy has crusaded against the pipeline since it was first proposed, saying it will discourage development and lead to myriad public safety issues. Yesterday, Healy said Jersey City will try to convince FERC and the federal court that ?we?re right.? ?The way the system is structured, and as it stands, is one that grants federal agencies way too much discretion,? Healy said in a statement. ?It puts cities like ours at a major disadvantage.? Spectra has said it will be one of the safest pipelines in North America, and that it will create jobs and lower energy costs for the area. Bayonne officials have been more neutral in their comments about the pipeline. Yesterday, Mayor Mark Smith said he is opposed to the pipeline, but touted his administration?s successful effort to have Spectra redraw the route to keep it out of residential neighborhoods. ?The administration is satisfied that appropriate engineering controls are in place that will manage potential risks,? Smith said. Pipeline opponents have been bracing for FERC?s decision since the agency released a draft environmental impact statement last September that concluded the pipeline would have few adverse impacts. Jersey City resident Dale Hardman formed the group No Gas Pipeline in early 2010 as an effort to defeat Spectra?s proposal. ?We knew as early as that time that FERC never met a pipeline it didn?t like,? Hardman said yesterday. http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... y_officials_and_acti.html
Posted on: 2012/5/23 12:47
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MDM,
Sure, gas is undeniably huge in the near future. All that doesn't explain why they couldn't run the pipeline underwater from Staten Island to Manhattan, and leave us alone. It runs in the water from SI to Bayonne, and again from JC to Manhattan. There are underwater gas pipelines elsewhere in the US running hundreds of miles link. Sure, it would cost more, but do you think that given the volume of gas and life of such a pipeline that extra cost was insurmountable? No, they're ramming it through our neighborhoods simply because they have the political pull to do it and it saves them more money than it cost to buy the politicians and unions. Capitalism at it's finest.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 3:07
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I'm glad to pay more for energy, or cut back more, and not live above a potential minefield. That's the market as well. We can ride a train through a 100-year-old tunnel, but it's impossible for Spectra to put this thing underwater? I worried about stuff exploding for ~7 years when I was in Iraq and Bosnia, and it sucked. (No, not gas lines, but getting blown up by any method sucks.) Enough already. Many thanks, though, for telling me how dumb I am.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 2:49
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MDM - bravo - great points. Too bad all the libs on this site aren't smart enough to see the need for this gas - it will be used unlike the millions wasted on Obama pet projects like Solyndra that just wasted tax payer's money, but got Obama $3,000/plate donations when he was in NYC fundraising (uh, official Presidential visit, wink, wink).
Posted on: 2012/5/23 2:21
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Yes, there is a glut of gas, natural gas liquids, and oil (out west in the Dakotas). There is a profound shortage in pipeline capacity. Gas is being flared off because there isn\'t the pipeline capacity to get it to market. Gas is also a byproduct of oil drilling. Per a study by GE, flared off gas around the world is almost equal to 1/4 of all natural gas consumption in the USA. The Spectra pipeline is one of many currently under construction, under expansion, or in the planning stages. Want proof? Do a quick news web search on gas and liquid pipelines. Keystone and Spectra have a lot of company. If what you stated above is correct, then Spectra will be building a pipeline that will have no demand and will lose money. This is NOT the case. Pipeline, storage, and other midstream operations are making money because there is more demand than capacity. NY and NJ are and have actively promoting natural gas as an alternative to new power plants, oil, and coal. NYC is phasing out No. 6 and No. 4 oil. Those big commercial boilers are being replaced with natural gas. In addition, NYSERDA has been promoting new gas burning equipment including CHP (engines / turbines that burn gas to make electricity and heat). Gas consumption is going up and will continue to go up, straining capacity of existing lines that feed both NJ and NY. Retail consumers don't notice pipeline capacity issues because large industrial / commercial consumers get their gas supplies 'interrupted' during high load periods, in order to keep the heat on in residential homes. This was an issue talked about by the engineers at PSE&G during the Standard Offer program (money paid to large consumers to burn more natural gas and use less electricity) because the pipeline capacity in the NYC metro area was at capacity during cold weather. This was almost 10 years ago. The capacity issues are getting worse: *PSE&G is phasing out its older coal powered plants. Their new plants are all largely natural gas fired. Over 1/2 the electricity generated in the state are from some very old nuclear plants. As those plants are phased out, there will be a massive increase in natural gas consumption to make power. *Solar and wind has increased the need for backup capacity. That reserve is in the form a natural gas fired 'peaking' turbines (you can see them from the Pulaski Skyway off of Fishhouse road). *The NJ BPU just put forward a new CHP program for NJ. I guarantee you a lot of big energy user are going to take advantage. *Say's law: Production creates its own demand. The glut of natural gas has the chemical industry re-tooling to use gas (ammonia, methanol, anti-freeze, are just a few chemicals derives from natural gas). *Manufactured gas plants are all long gone. PSE&G, Con-Ed, and other utilities can no longer make producer gas. The gas the makes your heat, hot water, and keeps the lights on must be transported in from the Gulf, Canada, Ohio, and Appalachia. *The technology to turn natural gas into gasoline, lubricants, and diesel fuel improved drastically over the past few years. GTL (gas to liquid) plants are now planned for Louisiana and one is already shipping product to the USA from Qatar. IMO, it is only a matter of time before some of the big refiners in the Mid Atlantic (Hess, Bayway) add on GTL to their facilities. Without an increase in capacity, at some point, during some REALLY cold weather, your gas service may not be there and the lights could go out as well. Now as much as many of you hate the idea of another gas pipeline coming into the area.. the alternatives of not having those new pipelines could be much much worse.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 2:08
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*applause.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 1:02
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No, its Spectra Energy, staffed at the top by greedy Republicans who don't care about people so their greed to improve shareholder value to beat their 34% growth has them pushing to spend almost $60 million a mile to build a pipeline the US doesn't need as even the Natural Gas Association admits there is a glut of gas. No, this is all about Spectra Energy in Houston, Texas not Obama. We knew from day one 2.5 years ago that FERC is full of oil and gas hacks who couldn't get an ambassadorship so get named to a K Street swinging commission full of those who one day serve as head of FERC then next day serve on the board of Spectra or it's subsidiaries. Only the naive didn't see this coming.
Posted on: 2012/5/23 0:49
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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FERCs email................................
To: Individual Interveners Commissioners and Staff NYISO ISO-NE From: State Outreach Federal Energy Regulatory Commission The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) today unanimously approved, with conditions, the New Jersey-New York Project proposed by Texas Eastern Transmission, LP and Algonquin Gas Transmission, LLC (Docket Nos. CP11-56-000 and PF10-17-000). The order may be viewed in FERC?s eLibrary database found at www.ferc.gov. Here is a direct link to the order http://www.ferc.gov/EventCalendar/Fil ... 521182749-CP11-56-000.pdf The NJ-NY project would involve the construction and operation of new and replacement pipeline and related facilities to provide up to 800,000 dekatherms per day of firm transportation service into the Borough of Manhattan, New York. The proposed NJ-NY Project will require the abandonment, replacement and construction of pipeline facilities in Middlesex County , Connecticut ; Morris, Bergen , Union, and Hudson Counties , New Jersey ; and Rockland , Richmond , and New York Counties , New York , and the lease of capacity on Algonquin?s pipeline system by Texas Eastern. Interveners have 30 days from the date of the order to request rehearing of the Commission?s action. If any such requests are made, the Commission will review the arguments raised and issue an Order on Rehearing sometime thereafter. Joyce Davidson Intergovernmental Affairs Specialist Office Of External Affairs Federal Energy Regulatory Commission 202-502-6348 - Office 202-208-0500 - Fax 202-441-3037 - Cell joyce.davidson@ferc.gov
Posted on: 2012/5/22 14:42
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Well, it is Obama who is sticking this pipeline up your arse, isn't it?
Posted on: 2012/5/22 11:01
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do you seriously think a) Spectra is going to hire local talent to create this highly-specialized boondoggle and b) they'll pass the savings on to us? (or even New Yorkers...the intended recipients of this cheap gas?) Jersey City laborers will get only short-term work digging the ditches. Spectra shareholders will get the long-term profits. New Jersey gets the shaft once again.
Posted on: 2012/5/22 2:52
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Feds approve gas pipeline that will run through Jersey City, Bayonne, and offshore Hoboken
May 21, 2012, 8:45 PM By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal Federal officials tonight gave the green light to a controversial, $1.2 billion natural-gas pipeline Houston-based Spectra Energy seeks to construct in parts of Bayonne, Jersey City and offshore Hoboken. The pipeline is opposed by Jersey City and Hoboken officials, with Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy making it something of a personal mission to keep the plan from coming to fruition. Opponents said the pipeline would discourage residential development along the route and create numerous safety hazards. Today's unanimous decision doesn't come as much of a shock. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission's final environment impact statement for the proposal, released in March, said the pipeline would have "limited adverse environmental impacts," which suggested to pipeline opponents that FERC's five commissioners would ultimately give the plan the go-ahead. Healy said tonight he was disappointed but not surprised by the news. "The entire process has been one lacking an independent and thorough analysis," he said in a statement. "While we review all of our options, we remain opposed to this high-pressure pipeline running through our densely populated city." Spectra's proposal calls for replacing nearly five miles of existing pipeline, as well as adding about 15 miles of new, 30-inch pipe from Staten Island to Bayonne, through Jersey City and offshore Hoboken until it terminates in Manhattan. Spectra spokeswoman Marylee Hanley said her company is "pleased" the project has been approved, but said she couldn't respond to specific questions until the company reviews the 60-page document FERC released tonight. "We remain committed to safely constructing this critically needed pipeline," Hanley said in a statement. "We will continue to cooperate with the community and appropriate regulatory agencies throughout the construction process as we work on a project that will create jobs, offer environmental benefits and lower energy costs throughout the NJ/NY region." FERC has issued more than a dozen conditions Spectra must meet before construction can begin, but most of them are unlikely to satisfy pipeline opponents. The conditions require the Houston energy giant to file detailed maps of the pipeline's route, submit soil and groundwater test results to FERC, alert residents whose properties will be affected by construction, and more. Opponents of the pipeline, which include a group called No Gas Pipeline that has become ubiquitous at city events, have few options after yesterday's approval. There are only two more layers of appeal for objectors, included among them Jersey City, Hoboken, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the Jersey City Medical Center and more. They have 30 days to ask FERC to re-hear the proposal, and after that, they have 90 days to file an appeal with a federal circuit court. If FERC's decision is not overturned, construction on the pipeline could begin this summer. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ve_gas_pipeline_that.html
Posted on: 2012/5/22 2:36
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Whoever read you the newspaper clearly skipped the salient points.
Posted on: 2012/5/22 2:25
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nObama, Odumba, Democraps .. you right wing troglodytes are so clever. How sad that this country may soon be in the hands of Romney, Fox News and the Tea Party.
Posted on: 2012/5/22 2:12
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Well, all of you nObama lovers, and Mr Hardman specifically, how do you reconcile this decision?
Is it still Bush's fault?
Posted on: 2012/5/22 1:28
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